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Played against an ultramarine player and killed hellblasters in close combat with my callidus. He then used the ancient banner to shoot her when they died. Does the wording mean that on death they can shoot AS IF it was the shooting? Not sure if this was cleared up before. I thought killing them in CC was the way to avoid getting blasted.

GameDadZ wrote:
Played against an ultramarine player and killed hellblasters in close combat with my callidus. He then used the ancient banner to shoot her when they died. Does the wording mean that on death they can shoot AS IF it was the shooting? Not sure if this was cleared up before. I thought killing them in CC was the way to avoid getting blasted.

If they were within 1" of an enemy model, you cannot use the banner to shoot.

Thanks, can I quote the BRB for this during a match?

GameDadZ wrote:
Thanks, can I quote the BRB for this during a match?

Codex: Ultramarines and Friends, Page 153 wrote:Astartes Banner: <CHAPTER> units within 6" of any friendly <CHAPTER> ANCIENTS add 1 to their Leadership. In addition, roll a D6 each time a <CHAPTER> INFANTRY model is destroyed within 6" of any friendly <CHAPTER> ANCIENTS, before removing the model as a casualty. On a 4+ that model musters one last surge of strength before succumbing to its wounds; it can either shoot with one of its weapons as if it were the Shooting phase, or make a single attack as if it were the Fight phase.

BRB, Page 179 wrote:In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons. First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit.

Now that I read it I remember the previous threads and there was an argument that because you're picking the model and not the unit you can indeed choose to shoot and there was no overall consensus because GW are bad at writing rules.

From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?

A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are not considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.

Well, did he shoot pistols? Those would still be able to fire, correct?

Ghaz wrote:From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?

A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are not considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.

The problem here is that you're selecting the model to act as if it were the shooting phase, not the unit. Thus the restriction in step 1 of the shooting phase does not apply. At least that is the argument.

deviantduck wrote:Well, did he shoot pistols? Those would still be able to fire, correct?

In this case, Pistols would actually be able to fire. It's one example that proves the people who claim "they wouldn't write a rule that does nothing" wrong when it comes to Pistols and Assault weapons, because those rules allow you to fire with an Astartes Banner.

 deviantduck wrote:
Well, did he shoot pistols? Those would still be able to fire, correct?

Totally. Nice call.

These were hellblasters. Rapid fire 1 weapons. So I guess they can fire them in melee after all?

GameDadZ wrote:
These were hellblasters. Rapid fire 1 weapons. So I guess they can fire them in melee after all?

General concensus is no. However as BCB pointed out the somewhat sloppy wording allows a little credence to the interpretation of yes, though personally I am certain this is not the intended reading.

Hmm but I guess the literal reading allows it so I couldn’t really tell my friend no to it.

GameDadZ wrote:
Hmm but I guess the literal reading allows it so I couldn’t really tell my friend no to it.

Well it's up to you really, but this would be the opposite conclusion that the majority of people come to.

As if it were the shooting phrase....

Can you normally fire a rapid fire weapon when you're within 1 inch of an enemy model?

Answer is no. They cannot elect to fire that weapon while engaged that way.

They could punch, or fire pistols. Their plasma incinerators are not valid items to shoot.

In all fairness to the opposite position, this is the shooting rule:

"You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit."

It doesn't say you can't shoot within 1", it says you can't pick the UNIT as part of the shooting phase.

But the stratagem bypasses the part where you pick a unit, so there is nothing technically stopping you shooting the Incinerators in this instance.

Having said that, my view is that this is clearly not intended. To back that up, I would cite the rules for Pistols and Assault weapons that technically don't work due to GW not understanding their own rules for picking units to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, if you're using this interaction to shoot within 1", you better not be advancing and shooting with Assault weapons or shooting pistols within 1" because it's essentially the exact same interaction!

HIWPI - Whether or not you select a unit shouldn't matter. The model is part of a unit, is that unit within 1" of an enemy unit. If yes then it can only shoot with pistols or make a melee attack. But I agree that RAW skips over the pick a unit part, so I understand the other point of view.

What happens if you first remove all hellblasters within 1" of the callidus (making melee attacks because of the banner).

If after that you still have casualties to remove, could you fire the plasma incinerators, because the *unit* is not within 1" anymore?

Mickmann wrote:
What happens if you first remove all hellblasters within 1" of the callidus (making melee attacks because of the banner).

If after that you still have casualties to remove, could you fire the plasma incinerators, because the *unit* is not within 1" anymore?

Yes. You remove the casualties as you resolve the banner on a model by model basis.

So if two models die you pick one, roll on the banner, resolve the attack if you succeed, then remove the model. Then you do that all for the second model.

Ok. I was afraid we were doing it wrong all the time ;-D

Thanks for clarification.

Just to confirm, this means that you could kill the enemy before it finishes all its attacks yes?

Unless all attacks have been fast rolled. No going back in time, and make those attacks not happen. What has been rolled, has been rolled.

 p5freak wrote:
Unless all attacks have been fast rolled. No going back in time, and make those attacks not happen. What has been rolled, has been rolled.

Yes, this is the consensus here on this. But there are arguments for why it wouldn't, as to finish the rolls you need to go back in time and apply stats to the attacks that are unresolved, even though the models are no longer on the table. But until there is an FAQ on the subject this is the most streamlined and closest to RAW way to play it.

The arguments for how to approach it were all discussed here

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/777867.page

The best approach seemed to be Fast-rolls finish there attacks, models / weapons that have not attacked yet are lost.

There is no going back to a dead model in resolving attacks that have been Fast Rolled. You know the attack’s S, AP, and D when you rolled the Hit Roll as those must be the same when Fast Rolling.

But the person with the ancient would not allow fast rolling in this instance as it changes the outcome. It can:

1) reduce the stats of your following attacks on units with decaying stats

2) kill you before you can even make your second attack.

A smash captain could literally be dead after killing 2 hell blasters so he should not be able to make the next 5 attacks.

Same goes for Dreadnought who are damaged and must lower their number of attacks/weapon skill after killing the first guy.

You aren’t allowed to make fast rolls unless it has no affect on the outcome.

Does the fast rolling rule say that you can't use it if it will affect the outcome?

Fast Dice Rolling
The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time,

There is nothing in there saying that your permission to fast roll is revoked if it makes a difference.

Exactly. As the rules currently stand you can fast role regardless of whether it is advantageous to do so, so long as the requirements are met.

GameDadZ wrote:


You aren’t allowed to make fast rolls unless it has no affect on the outcome.

Right

 p5freak wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
You aren’t allowed to make fast rolls unless it has no affect on the outcome.

Right

That isn't true in the slightest.

I know it isnt, thats why i posted three laughing orkz.

 alextroy wrote:
There is no going back to a dead model in resolving attacks that have been Fast Rolled. You know the attack’s S, AP, and D when you rolled the Hit Roll as those must be the same when Fast Rolling.

Except you interrupt the fast rolls halfway through, not all of them have allocated damage or have had saves done yet.
Why MUST they be the same. No other stats or rules stay on the model persist after its been removed from play, unless specifically stated.
Saves and damage allocation happens one at a time (as per the fast rolling rules) meaning you may have rolled the hits, they may have hit, and I may have to allocate the remaining wounds, but I don't necissarly have any AP or dammage to allocate, your model is gone, no stats, no rules, no nothing.
Your statement is an interpretation not RAW, as the model is removed from play, it has no stats to resolve the remaining attacks with.
Hence,
This a good and streamlined way to play, but it is not RAW the raw does not say when a models / weapons stats stop existing. So what you are doing, is going back in time to a point where the models weapons did have an AP and Damage.
I do play like how you suggest to do it, and I think it is fair but I can also see, within RAW how it can be interpreted to work differently.

This needs to be FAQd
The rules do not say what you are suggesting, but it also doesn't say to do it any other way either.

You might technically be allowed to fast reroll but the rules still say they are assumed to be resolved one at a time. Which means even if you did fast reroll and got 7 hits, if the third unit killed you, they would not have to make the other 4 saves.