Astartes - reroll 1s for Armour saves

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think you can so easily disentangle offense/defense woes on overcosted models. Marines cost MAKES them fragile. Giving them MOAR dakka doesn't change this.
Agreed, and making them more durable means they have more offense in later turns (because less models die).
You need to do both to make Marines both worth their points and feel like they do in the fluff.

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How much more durable do you have to make them to have that supposed offense for later turns though?
You need to consider that Marines and Terminators (yeah Terminators) did become more durable to more weapons than ones they became weaker to. The issue is that, with the AP changes, other armies and units ended up benefitting considerably moreso. The durability race was completed, but the arms race for Marines was not. NONE of their weapons caught up.

**Martel732**

I think marines are still quite far off on durability. I get that in some areas they improved, but looking at the big picture, they are still incredibly fragile. Marines actually have some fairly damaging set ups, but they are easily removed. Sounds like you just want to make them do MOAR damage in the one or two turns that they live.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Martel732 wrote:
I think marines are still quite far off on durability. I get that in some areas they improved, but looking at the big picture, they are still incredibly fragile. Marines actually have some fairly damaging set ups, but they are easily removed. Sounds like you just want to make them do MOAR damage in the one or two turns that they live.

The "big picture" is they don't even remove Gaunts without them getting a save anymore. Old AP4 at least forced certain opponents into cover, and now nobody cares.

See the spiraling effect it has? The reason Marines aren't durable to you is because you aren't removing the opposition. What good is rerolling 1s for a save when you still kill none of those 8 Infantry squads?

**Martel732**

I see that, but at the same time i need my inceptors to fire more than once. They are both serious problems.

**Galef**

Martel732 wrote:
They are both serious problems.

Agreed. And both need to be addressed.
Ideally the basic Marine Statline should be 2W 2A, with Primaris units counting D2 as D1.
But since that won't happen, giving Marines +1 to their save rolls vs ranged weapons is a good start.

Once you address the durability issue, then you address the damage output issue. Bolter Discipline should have been +1 shot in addition to double at half. It would mean a RF1 bolter would be 2 shots if stationary or 3 shots if at half range.
Next you make Astates HBs have a RF2 option and give MMs Heavy 2.

Those simple changes combined make Marines life longer and spit out more dakka.

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**Apple Peel**

Horst wrote:
I think the biggest issue with Marines is that they are supposed to be good at everything, but great at nothing, and instead they're just bad at everything.

I would like to see Marines given more rules for flexibility, instead of just a fix like "better ability to make saves".

For example... Give marines an "orders" like system, where they can buff their attack or defense. Off the top of my head, useful things would be:

Concentrate Fire - Bolters, Bolt Rifles, and Bolt Carbines get +1 to hit, and ignore cover.

Brace for Incoming Fire - Squad subtracts 1 from their ballistics skill, and instead adds +1 to their saving throws.

Grenadiers - Each member of the squad may throw a grenade.

Move Move Move - The squad can move in the shooting phase, and must advance. All rapid fire weapons become assault weapons, and the squad has a -1 BS penalty for this turn. So they hit on 5's as they advance.

These are examples, but I think it would make a lot of sense to give Orders to marines. It would make marine HQ's useful for more than just beatsticks or re-roll bubbles, and would give them the tactical flexibility they sorely need. Their codex is broken beyond a simple fix unfortunately, they need new mechanics to make them useful.

How about leave order to guard and instead:
Tactical Superiority—this replaces auras on all SM characters. All units receive the benefit of whichever character if they are on the field.
If a lieutenant is on the field, all SM units (or maybe just infantry for balance) reroll ones to wound.
If a Captain is in the field, all SM units reroll ones to hit. (Chapter Master as well)
If a Techmarine is on the field, whatever buff do vehicles.
Etc.

**The Deer Hunter**

For durability, SM need a sort of +++ save.
Let’s say, 4+++ vs S4- weapons, 5+++ vs. S5+ Weapons.

For more offense, redesign Assault cannon, making it the main army weapon.
Do it Assault6, give aRending effect, and price it at 16 points.

Units like Razorback or Speeder or Storm Talon would be more efficient even outside Gman lists.

**some bloke**

I would like to see something such as "tactics" for tactical squads. This would be something which can be declared at either the end of or the start of your turn.

Offensive: Gain +1 to hit, but do not benefit from cover
Defensive: -1 to hit, but gain +2 from cover
push forward: Boltguns become assault 1, but you must advance
Suppressive fire: Boltguns become Heavy 2
Into the Fray!: May reroll charge distance, may only fire bolt pistols, +1 attack if they successfully charge this turn.

Add other ones for specific chapters, EG salamanders can boost their flamers/meltas in some way.

making tactical marines tactical, and letting them boost their damage output, survivability or speed to suit the situation would certainly be a better feel to me than making them mini-terminators. It would also need some thought to play them, which is a good thing in any game.

**Klickor**

The Deer Hunter wrote:
For durability, SM need a sort of +++ save.
Let’s say, 4+++ vs S4- weapons, 5+++ vs. S5+ Weapons.

For more offense, redesign Assault cannon, making it the main army weapon.
Do it Assault6, give aRending effect, and price it at 16 points.

Units like Razorback or Speeder or Storm Talon would be more efficient even outside Gman lists.

That just adds more die rolling and an extra step to every attack against marines while also not doing anything for those that already have a FNP save. It also hits the wrong weapons I feel. With a 4+++ save on any non 1w marine they will be impossible to kill with normal attacks. And a 5+++ against lascannons and meltaguns would make them really bad against marines which would also be bad. They already have low rate of fire and are expensive and with a 5+++ save would have a really hard chance to one shot a primaris. A devastator squads with lascannons would kill 2 intercessors a turn. The weapons that would be the best against marines would be the same as now. High rate of fire weapons of medium quality would still be the best against marines while making what should be the best hard counter really bad. You don't want to make anti tank weapons even worse against marines than they are. It is fine if they kill marines since they are meant to kill tanks and other really hard targets and really expensive and mostly overkill.

**123ply**

Anything to make space marines more durable, so Im in favour.

**The Deer Hunter**

Klickor wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
For durability, SM need a sort of +++ save.
Let’s say, 4+++ vs S4- weapons, 5+++ vs. S5+ Weapons.

For more offense, redesign Assault cannon, making it the main army weapon.
Do it Assault6, give aRending effect, and price it at 16 points.

Units like Razorback or Speeder or Storm Talon would be more efficient even outside Gman lists.

That just adds more die rolling and an extra step to every attack against marines while also not doing anything for those that already have a FNP save. It also hits the wrong weapons I feel. With a 4+++ save on any non 1w marine they will be impossible to kill with normal attacks. And a 5+++ against lascannons and meltaguns would make them really bad against marines which would also be bad. They already have low rate of fire and are expensive and with a 5+++ save would have a really hard chance to one shot a primaris. A devastator squads with lascannons would kill 2 intercessors a turn. The weapons that would be the best against marines would be the same as now. High rate of fire weapons of medium quality would still be the best against marines while making what should be the best hard counter really bad. You don't want to make anti tank weapons even worse against marines than they are. It is fine if they kill marines since they are meant to kill tanks and other really hard targets and really expensive and mostly overkill.

Anti tank weapons should be better against ... tanks. For me this is no surprise. so, if you to kill infantry are pushed to use anti infantry weapons, that would be an improvement of the game.

The game now doesn’t need to be more killing, there already are far too much stupid Shooting units or shot twice ability.

**Klickor**

Anti tank weapons are already bad for killing Infantry. Not that they dont kill what they hit, they do and they should. But shooting lascannons instead of heavy bolters is a waste of points and something people dont want to do already so making them even worse against marines doesnt solve anything.

Not the heaviest of guns that is a problem in this edition after all. Its the cheaper guns with higher rate of fire a tier below that is the problem for marines. A plasma russ kills way more marines than a predator with 4 lascannons or a landraider with lascannons and multimelta.

Anti tank weapons being bad against tanks due to random damage and ++ saves is a problem. Them being good shot for shot against Infantry isnt.