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Then please outright ban them. The FW marine dreads are just obnoxious outliers.

I played a 200ish PL/side game last night w;
Deimos pred
Landraider Helios
Rapier laser destroyer
Legion Relic Contemptor

they all seemed to work just fine.

My buddies Tau FW stuff had same feeling.

kinda ticked that GW decided not to print cards for the FW units and even more so the regular ones didnt have the variants of termi armour.

 Tank_Dweller wrote:


Now Titans. Titans seem to have good survivability but there damage output is depressingly lacklustre. Lets compare with a GW Shadowsword it has a power rating of 25 it has 5 wounds with a 6+ save, armed with Volcano Cannon with 72" range 4 attacks with a SAP of 7+ and a SAT of 3+ it also has the Destroyer rule meaning it wounds twice for each succesful wound so it has a potential damage output of 8 wounds, it also has a Twin Heavy Bolter with 36" range 2 attacks with a SAP of 7+ and a SAT of 9+ you may as well pay the the Extra 4 PR to get an extra 4 Lascannons and 4 Twin Heavy Bolters or Heavy Flamers. So assuming you took the Heavy Bolters then for 29 PR you have a combined potential damage output of 22 wounds. Now the Warlord Titan has a PR of 154 with an impressive 36 wounds and a great 4+ save but unfortunatly this is where the awesomeness takes a dive. As standard it is armed with 2 Belicosa Volcano Cannons with 180" range but with only 2 Attacks compared to the 4 Destroyer attacks of the Shadowsword but it does have the Apocalyptic Destroyer rule meaning it does 4 damage for each successful wound so taking this into account both weapons have a max potential damage output of 8 wounds, the Belicosa also has a worse SAP of 9+ but an improved SAT of 2+. So essentially it is the same weapon with an increased range and a 1 better SAT surely the Belicosa the most mighty of the Volcano Cannons should do more Damage than a standard Volcano Cannon... nope but at least you get 2 of them, meh moving on. It also has 2 Apocalypse Missile Launchers each with 4 attacks with 360" range but with a SAP and SAT of 8+ it doesn't even have the SAP of a Heavy Bolter hardly befitting of a mighty Titan weapon with Apocalypse in the name, it also has two Ardex-defensor Maulers and 2 Ardex Defensor Twin Lascannons.

So bottom line for 154 PR you get a Warlord with a maximum potential damage output of 32 wounds compared to the 22 potential damage output of the upgraded Shadowsword coming in at only 29 PR. So for the price of the Warlord you could take 5 Shadowswords with a combined max potential damage output of 110 wounds, the Shadowswords also have the advantage of being able to spread out that firepower onto multiple units., so for the points the Titan has a serious lack of firepower. It really puzzles me why FW decided to make Titan weapons so weak or even Super Heavies in general,Titans should be deleting units left right and center especially in Apocalypse. I still would like to own a Titan one day its just a shame they are so bad.

A couple things here.

You do mention the survivability, but the fact you gloss over it makes me think maybe you didn't quite appreciate HOW MUCH more survivable a warlord is than a baneblade.

A 36 wound 4+ warlord takes 71 big blasts to reliably kill, assuming you leave the last wound to morale. That's 142 blasts.

By contrast, a Baneblade requires 6 big blasts to reliably kill, through its 5W 6+. That's 12 blasts.

If you have the firepower to kill a warlord in 1 round, you can kill TWELVE (348 PL the way you've armed it up) baneblades.

Going by that, I would expect to see the Baneblade dishing out at least twice the damage for the points that the titan does if the comparison is to be balanced.

The second problem is, you're going by maximum instead of expected damage output and comparing a BS4+ unit to a BS2+ unit.

Expected damage output of a Shadowsword tank on Aimed Fire would be:

4 lascannons = 1.77 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 2.664 vs infantry
4 volcano cannon shots = 3.333 vs tanks

Expected damage output of a base equipped warlord would be:

4 lascannons = 2.07 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 3.12 vs infantry
4 super volcano cannon shots = 12.22 vs tanks
8 missile launcher shots = 2.78 vs infantry or tanks, with barrage.

The barebones Warlord titan costs about 5 times as much as a baneblade, is around 2.4x as durable for the cost, and the baneblade deals about 2.8x the damage for the cost. Considering the Warlord gets several extras, such as the fact that it doesn't have to sit still in the backfield and can remain at 2+BS while moving, it autoheals one blast every turn, it's got Terror Troops, and one of those weapons is a nigh-infinite range Barrage weapon that it can use to snipe out of LOS characters and the like, it seems like a roughly balanced comparison to me.

"But Scotsman, what if I don't want my titan to just be tanky! I didn't dress my toddler up in cardboard armor for him to stomp around NOT killing as much as a baneblade!"

Well luckily, you know how we said "might as well take the extra weapons on that Shadowsword"? You can do the exact same thing for ol' titan daddy.

Let's throw 36 more power level on there to swap those sissy-ass missile launchers out for a pair of twin vulcan mega-bolters and trade up the volcano cannons for a couple sunfury plasma annihilators, shall we?

Well now he's up to giving up 1.85 PL/blast, much closer to the Shadowsword's 2.41 PL/blast. Damage-wise he's now dealing .116 blasts per power level to infantry and .11 to tanks, versus the Shadowsword's .172 blasts/PL to tanks and 0.09 to infantry.

So, he's now at about 25% more durable, 15% less damage. Seems a little OP in the titan's favor maybe, but he's hitting himself for 2 blasts per turn with those plasma cannons and he's lost the Barrage.

If you made me guess, I'd say the heavy durability-skew with the Warlord titan's base loadout (and the big titans in general) is intended to allow for "Titan Vs Everyone" type game modes to actually be fun to play and not an experience of either the titan being able to table everyone in 2 turns or everyone just being able to one-round the poor titan.

I think the Forgeworld Dreads add so much flavor to an otherwise boring base unit in 40k. I love Dreads so much...the taste of it, the smell of it....oops, smelting accident coming back at me there...

As a big Dread fan in 40k, the access to forge world dreads ended up being a blessing because the standard dreads I used got smacked but good in Apoc! A little to vulnerable and low powered for the price.

(just because I sent an Ironclad at a Tyrant Chaos Knight doesn't mean I'm stupid.......right?)

I'm really frustrated by what they did with the Necron Sentry Pylon weapons, giving them al, the same profile is ridiculous, especially the Heat Cannon.

 Blndmage wrote:
I'm really frustrated by what they did with the Necron Sentry Pylon weapons, giving them al, the same profile is ridiculous, especially the Heat Cannon.

I noticed they did that in a few places across the factions. No idea why and I hope it is addressed in a FAQ or something soon. I think their attempt at streamlining was admirable, but short sighted. The game is much quicker, but we all have had to look at all of the new stats to start with so why folding them all into a far too easy stat line is confusing.

 Blndmage wrote:
I'm really frustrated by what they did with the Necron Sentry Pylon weapons, giving them al, the same profile is ridiculous, especially the Heat Cannon.

"So uhh, you can have 24" range or for the same price, 36" range!

Decisions decisions."

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tank_Dweller wrote:


Now Titans. Titans seem to have good survivability but there damage output is depressingly lacklustre. Lets compare with a GW Shadowsword it has a power rating of 25 it has 5 wounds with a 6+ save, armed with Volcano Cannon with 72" range 4 attacks with a SAP of 7+ and a SAT of 3+ it also has the Destroyer rule meaning it wounds twice for each succesful wound so it has a potential damage output of 8 wounds, it also has a Twin Heavy Bolter with 36" range 2 attacks with a SAP of 7+ and a SAT of 9+ you may as well pay the the Extra 4 PR to get an extra 4 Lascannons and 4 Twin Heavy Bolters or Heavy Flamers. So assuming you took the Heavy Bolters then for 29 PR you have a combined potential damage output of 22 wounds. Now the Warlord Titan has a PR of 154 with an impressive 36 wounds and a great 4+ save but unfortunatly this is where the awesomeness takes a dive. As standard it is armed with 2 Belicosa Volcano Cannons with 180" range but with only 2 Attacks compared to the 4 Destroyer attacks of the Shadowsword but it does have the Apocalyptic Destroyer rule meaning it does 4 damage for each successful wound so taking this into account both weapons have a max potential damage output of 8 wounds, the Belicosa also has a worse SAP of 9+ but an improved SAT of 2+. So essentially it is the same weapon with an increased range and a 1 better SAT surely the Belicosa the most mighty of the Volcano Cannons should do more Damage than a standard Volcano Cannon... nope but at least you get 2 of them, meh moving on. It also has 2 Apocalypse Missile Launchers each with 4 attacks with 360" range but with a SAP and SAT of 8+ it doesn't even have the SAP of a Heavy Bolter hardly befitting of a mighty Titan weapon with Apocalypse in the name, it also has two Ardex-defensor Maulers and 2 Ardex Defensor Twin Lascannons.

So bottom line for 154 PR you get a Warlord with a maximum potential damage output of 32 wounds compared to the 22 potential damage output of the upgraded Shadowsword coming in at only 29 PR. So for the price of the Warlord you could take 5 Shadowswords with a combined max potential damage output of 110 wounds, the Shadowswords also have the advantage of being able to spread out that firepower onto multiple units., so for the points the Titan has a serious lack of firepower. It really puzzles me why FW decided to make Titan weapons so weak or even Super Heavies in general,Titans should be deleting units left right and center especially in Apocalypse. I still would like to own a Titan one day its just a shame they are so bad.

A couple things here.

You do mention the survivability, but the fact you gloss over it makes me think maybe you didn't quite appreciate HOW MUCH more survivable a warlord is than a baneblade.

A 36 wound 4+ warlord takes 71 big blasts to reliably kill, assuming you leave the last wound to morale. That's 142 blasts.

By contrast, a Baneblade requires 6 big blasts to reliably kill, through its 5W 6+. That's 12 blasts.

If you have the firepower to kill a warlord in 1 round, you can kill TWELVE (348 PL the way you've armed it up) baneblades.

Going by that, I would expect to see the Baneblade dishing out at least twice the damage for the points that the titan does if the comparison is to be balanced.

The second problem is, you're going by maximum instead of expected damage output and comparing a BS4+ unit to a BS2+ unit.

Expected damage output of a Shadowsword tank on Aimed Fire would be:

4 lascannons = 1.77 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 2.664 vs infantry
4 volcano cannon shots = 3.333 vs tanks

Expected damage output of a base equipped warlord would be:

4 lascannons = 2.07 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 3.12 vs infantry
4 super volcano cannon shots = 12.22 vs tanks
8 missile launcher shots = 2.78 vs infantry or tanks, with barrage.

The barebones Warlord titan costs about 5 times as much as a baneblade, is around 2.4x as durable for the cost, and the baneblade deals about 2.8x the damage for the cost. Considering the Warlord gets several extras, such as the fact that it doesn't have to sit still in the backfield and can remain at 2+BS while moving, it autoheals one blast every turn, it's got Terror Troops, and one of those weapons is a nigh-infinite range Barrage weapon that it can use to snipe out of LOS characters and the like, it seems like a roughly balanced comparison to me.

"But Scotsman, what if I don't want my titan to just be tanky! I didn't dress my toddler up in cardboard armor for him to stomp around NOT killing as much as a baneblade!"

Well luckily, you know how we said "might as well take the extra weapons on that Shadowsword"? You can do the exact same thing for ol' titan daddy.

Let's throw 36 more power level on there to swap those sissy-ass missile launchers out for a pair of twin vulcan mega-bolters and trade up the volcano cannons for a couple sunfury plasma annihilators, shall we?

Well now he's up to giving up 1.85 PL/blast, much closer to the Shadowsword's 2.41 PL/blast. Damage-wise he's now dealing .116 blasts per power level to infantry and .11 to tanks, versus the Shadowsword's .172 blasts/PL to tanks and 0.09 to infantry.

So, he's now at about 25% more durable, 15% less damage. Seems a little OP in the titan's favor maybe, but he's hitting himself for 2 blasts per turn with those plasma cannons and he's lost the Barrage.

If you made me guess, I'd say the heavy durability-skew with the Warlord titan's base loadout (and the big titans in general) is intended to allow for "Titan Vs Everyone" type game modes to actually be fun to play and not an experience of either the titan being able to table everyone in 2 turns or everyone just being able to one-round the poor titan.

Those are mighty Apocalytic Missile Launchers that you are calling sissy I hate to be pedantic but the Shadowsword has 10 Heavy Bolters plus if you are adding 36 more pl you know im going to take another Shadowsword LOL and that gives me an even closer total of 30 wounds to the Titans 36. The huge advantage multiple Shadowswords have to spread out that firepower also can not be understated, I personally would still take the Shadowswords every time if I was all about the win. I want to face down a Titan with 6 Shadowswords now to see if it confirms my suspicions. I'm sure there are probably even more effective units than the Shadowsword for the cost, I just chose it because it also has a Volcano Cannon it would be interesting to see how some other massed units would stack up against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tank_Dweller wrote:


Expected damage output of a Shadowsword tank on Aimed Fire would be:

4 lascannons = 1.77 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 2.664 vs infantry
4 volcano cannon shots = 3.333 vs tanks

Expected damage output of a base equipped warlord would be:

4 lascannons = 2.07 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 3.12 vs infantry
4 super volcano cannon shots = 12.22 vs tanks
8 missile launcher shots = 2.78 vs infantry or tanks, with barrage.

Does the 1 difference in BS really change the damage output from the Volcano Cannons that much?

Eldar superheavies might be intra competitive amongst themselves, but they as usual gimp Eldar titans when compared against imperial ones.

No destroyer on the pulsar and their "fields" utter crap - there's literally a core action that negates it's effects completely.

Imagine if there was a concentrated fire Action that allowed you to ignore void shields...

Distortion fields should have a range of modifiers based on how far they moved, or just give them the harlequin faction ability

In case you havent figured it out yet, GW proper doesnt want you spending money on FW. Yes they are the same LLC, but each team has its own profit sheets that it is responsible for producing a profit on. So if GW proper can shift your dollars from FW to GW then their performance looks better and they are the ones writing the rules. Not to mention that the profit margin on plastic is significantly higher than resin.

 quickfuze wrote:
In case you havent figured it out yet, GW proper doesnt want you spending money on FW. Yes they are the same LLC, but each team has its own profit sheets that it is responsible for producing a profit on. So if GW proper can shift your dollars from FW to GW then their performance looks better and they are the ones writing the rules. Not to mention that the profit margin on plastic is significantly higher than resin.

Translation: GW is a bunch of ing idiots and the people involved should be fired.

 quickfuze wrote:
In case you havent figured it out yet, GW proper doesnt want you spending money on FW. Yes they are the same LLC, but each team has its own profit sheets that it is responsible for producing a profit on. So if GW proper can shift your dollars from FW to GW then their performance looks better and they are the ones writing the rules. Not to mention that the profit margin on plastic is significantly higher than resin.

>GW Buffs FW units

>They don't want people to buy FW

FW is all over the place these days and doesn't seem to have any clear direction on what it's future is going to be. Alan Bligh's unfortunate passing has left a hole that GW either can't or won't fill. This is the first edition I've every played were no IA books have come out and GW seems to be doing it's best to quietly shut down the HH series.

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Tank_Dweller wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tank_Dweller wrote:


Now Titans. Titans seem to have good survivability but there damage output is depressingly lacklustre. Lets compare with a GW Shadowsword it has a power rating of 25 it has 5 wounds with a 6+ save, armed with Volcano Cannon with 72" range 4 attacks with a SAP of 7+ and a SAT of 3+ it also has the Destroyer rule meaning it wounds twice for each succesful wound so it has a potential damage output of 8 wounds, it also has a Twin Heavy Bolter with 36" range 2 attacks with a SAP of 7+ and a SAT of 9+ you may as well pay the the Extra 4 PR to get an extra 4 Lascannons and 4 Twin Heavy Bolters or Heavy Flamers. So assuming you took the Heavy Bolters then for 29 PR you have a combined potential damage output of 22 wounds. Now the Warlord Titan has a PR of 154 with an impressive 36 wounds and a great 4+ save but unfortunatly this is where the awesomeness takes a dive. As standard it is armed with 2 Belicosa Volcano Cannons with 180" range but with only 2 Attacks compared to the 4 Destroyer attacks of the Shadowsword but it does have the Apocalyptic Destroyer rule meaning it does 4 damage for each successful wound so taking this into account both weapons have a max potential damage output of 8 wounds, the Belicosa also has a worse SAP of 9+ but an improved SAT of 2+. So essentially it is the same weapon with an increased range and a 1 better SAT surely the Belicosa the most mighty of the Volcano Cannons should do more Damage than a standard Volcano Cannon... nope but at least you get 2 of them, meh moving on. It also has 2 Apocalypse Missile Launchers each with 4 attacks with 360" range but with a SAP and SAT of 8+ it doesn't even have the SAP of a Heavy Bolter hardly befitting of a mighty Titan weapon with Apocalypse in the name, it also has two Ardex-defensor Maulers and 2 Ardex Defensor Twin Lascannons.

So bottom line for 154 PR you get a Warlord with a maximum potential damage output of 32 wounds compared to the 22 potential damage output of the upgraded Shadowsword coming in at only 29 PR. So for the price of the Warlord you could take 5 Shadowswords with a combined max potential damage output of 110 wounds, the Shadowswords also have the advantage of being able to spread out that firepower onto multiple units., so for the points the Titan has a serious lack of firepower. It really puzzles me why FW decided to make Titan weapons so weak or even Super Heavies in general,Titans should be deleting units left right and center especially in Apocalypse. I still would like to own a Titan one day its just a shame they are so bad.

A couple things here.

You do mention the survivability, but the fact you gloss over it makes me think maybe you didn't quite appreciate HOW MUCH more survivable a warlord is than a baneblade.

A 36 wound 4+ warlord takes 71 big blasts to reliably kill, assuming you leave the last wound to morale. That's 142 blasts.

By contrast, a Baneblade requires 6 big blasts to reliably kill, through its 5W 6+. That's 12 blasts.

If you have the firepower to kill a warlord in 1 round, you can kill TWELVE (348 PL the way you've armed it up) baneblades.

Going by that, I would expect to see the Baneblade dishing out at least twice the damage for the points that the titan does if the comparison is to be balanced.

The second problem is, you're going by maximum instead of expected damage output and comparing a BS4+ unit to a BS2+ unit.

Expected damage output of a Shadowsword tank on Aimed Fire would be:

4 lascannons = 1.77 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 2.664 vs infantry
4 volcano cannon shots = 3.333 vs tanks

Expected damage output of a base equipped warlord would be:

4 lascannons = 2.07 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 3.12 vs infantry
4 super volcano cannon shots = 12.22 vs tanks
8 missile launcher shots = 2.78 vs infantry or tanks, with barrage.

The barebones Warlord titan costs about 5 times as much as a baneblade, is around 2.4x as durable for the cost, and the baneblade deals about 2.8x the damage for the cost. Considering the Warlord gets several extras, such as the fact that it doesn't have to sit still in the backfield and can remain at 2+BS while moving, it autoheals one blast every turn, it's got Terror Troops, and one of those weapons is a nigh-infinite range Barrage weapon that it can use to snipe out of LOS characters and the like, it seems like a roughly balanced comparison to me.

"But Scotsman, what if I don't want my titan to just be tanky! I didn't dress my toddler up in cardboard armor for him to stomp around NOT killing as much as a baneblade!"

Well luckily, you know how we said "might as well take the extra weapons on that Shadowsword"? You can do the exact same thing for ol' titan daddy.

Let's throw 36 more power level on there to swap those sissy-ass missile launchers out for a pair of twin vulcan mega-bolters and trade up the volcano cannons for a couple sunfury plasma annihilators, shall we?

Well now he's up to giving up 1.85 PL/blast, much closer to the Shadowsword's 2.41 PL/blast. Damage-wise he's now dealing .116 blasts per power level to infantry and .11 to tanks, versus the Shadowsword's .172 blasts/PL to tanks and 0.09 to infantry.

So, he's now at about 25% more durable, 15% less damage. Seems a little OP in the titan's favor maybe, but he's hitting himself for 2 blasts per turn with those plasma cannons and he's lost the Barrage.

If you made me guess, I'd say the heavy durability-skew with the Warlord titan's base loadout (and the big titans in general) is intended to allow for "Titan Vs Everyone" type game modes to actually be fun to play and not an experience of either the titan being able to table everyone in 2 turns or everyone just being able to one-round the poor titan.

Those are mighty Apocalytic Missile Launchers that you are calling sissy I hate to be pedantic but the Shadowsword has 10 Heavy Bolters plus if you are adding 36 more pl you know im going to take another Shadowsword LOL and that gives me an even closer total of 30 wounds to the Titans 36. The huge advantage multiple Shadowswords have to spread out that firepower also can not be understated, I personally would still take the Shadowswords every time if I was all about the win. I want to face down a Titan with 6 Shadowswords now to see if it confirms my suspicions. I'm sure there are probably even more effective units than the Shadowsword for the cost, I just chose it because it also has a Volcano Cannon it would be interesting to see how some other massed units would stack up against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tank_Dweller wrote:


Expected damage output of a Shadowsword tank on Aimed Fire would be:

4 lascannons = 1.77 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 2.664 vs infantry
4 volcano cannon shots = 3.333 vs tanks

Expected damage output of a base equipped warlord would be:

4 lascannons = 2.07 vs tanks
8 heavy bolter shots = 3.12 vs infantry
4 super volcano cannon shots = 12.22 vs tanks
8 missile launcher shots = 2.78 vs infantry or tanks, with barrage.

Does the 1 difference in BS really change the damage output from the Volcano Cannons that much?

I feel like you're not understanding the math here.

With units that have such large weapon ranges and big wound stacks as the Shadowsword and Warlord do, you can pretty much look at their damage output and durability on a purely quantitative standpoint. How much damage do you put out, total, for the power level you cost, and how much power level do you effectively lose every time your opponent stacks up a big blast on you. Units can be boiled down to just "An amount of damage, and an amount of durability, for an amount of cost".

I'm not comparing the warlord to A shadowsword, I'm comparing it to equal points worth of shadowswords. With the base loadout, 152 PL of titan is 2.4x as durable as 152PL of Shadowsword tank, and 152PL of shadowsword has 2.8x as much firepower as 152PL of Titan.

At the high-end build of the titan, I'm factoring in the fact that it's almost twice the power level cost, and now I'm comparing that cost (I think it was like 112PL more?) to the new equivalent weight in Shadowswords. You end up closing the durability gap and the firepower gap considerably and end up with him 1.25x as durable and the shadowswords dealing 1.15x as much damage.

More heavily upgraded titan, more shadowswords you're comparing him to. You do lose a tiny bit of detail in this kind of analysis - basically, the Shadowswords are assuming to not be moving at all, and the titan is assumed to be taking an Advance action which means he can exercise a little more board control - but if you're just looking at "Is this balanced out roughly OK" it's a pretty good point of comparison.

I hear what your saying I just don't agree with you. I just play tested and I know its anecdotal at best but here it is. I upgraded the Titan giving it 2 Sunfury Plasma Annihilators coming in at +36 pl a piece and 2 Twin Vulcan Mega Bolters coming in at +18 pl a piece taking the grand total up to 262 pl meaning I had to add 3 more Shadowswords LOL for a total of 9 at 29 pl a peice with a total of 261 pl. I grouped the SS weapons together to save time I also did the damage as I went along so The Titan would be better able to allocate its firepower without being wasteful, only the Titan benefited from this, Shadowswords are up first.

Ding ding Round 1

Shadowswords

36 Destroyer Volcano Cannon shots / 20 hits / 17 large blasts
36 Lascannon shots / 25 hits / 9 large blasts + 1 small blast
90 Heavy Bolter shots / 54 hits / 11 large blasts + 1 small blast

38 large blasts
Void Shield -1 large blast
37 saves taken / 17 successful / 20 failed

Titan has 16 wounds remaining

Titan
Shooting at SS1

12 Sunfury Plasma Annihilator shots / 11 hits / 5 large blasts
4 Ardex-defensor Mauler shots / 2 hits / 1 small blast
4 Ardex-defensor Lascannon shots / 4 hits / 2 large blasts

7 large blasts + 1 small
8 saves taken / 3 successful / 5 failed

SS1 is destroyed

Shooting at SS2

24 Vulcan Mega Bolter shots / 23 hits / 7 large blasts
7 saves taken / 2 successful / 5 failed

SS2 is destroyed

Round 2

Shadowswords

28 Volcano Cannon shots / 19 hits / 17 large blasts
28 Lascannon shots / 20 hits / 8 large blasts
70 Heavy Bolter shots / 45 hits / 9 large blasts + 1 small

34 large blasts + 1 small
Void Shield -1 large blast
34 saves taken / 18 successful / 16 failed

Titan is destroyed

Titan
Shooting at SS3

12 Sunfury Plasma Annihilator shots / 11 hits / 7 large blasts
4 Ardex-defensor Mauler shots / 4 hits / 1 large blast + 1 small blast

8 large blasts + 1 small blast
9 saves taken / 2 successful / 7 failed

SS3 is destroyed

Shooting at SS4

24 Vulcan Mega Bolter shots / 17 hits / 3 large blasts + 1 small
4 Ardex-defensor Lascannon shots / 4 hits / 1 small blast

4 large blasts
4 saves taken / 1 successful / 3 failed

SS4 remains on 2 wounds.

So it turned out how I thought it would at least this time, the Titan just couldn't match the fire output of the Shadowswords. I know the Heavy Bolters may not be in range but I wanted to get a gauge on the effective output of the unit as in a game they would probably have other things to shoot at but even without the Bolters I still think they would have won convincingly. Tbh all the weapons could have been out of range the Titan definitely has the advantage there but what I wanted to demonstrate mainly was the diffrence in fire power output not necessarily who would win 1 vs the other.
I just edited this because I was tired and got something wrong but its now fixed.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
In case you havent figured it out yet, GW proper doesnt want you spending money on FW. Yes they are the same LLC, but each team has its own profit sheets that it is responsible for producing a profit on. So if GW proper can shift your dollars from FW to GW then their performance looks better and they are the ones writing the rules. Not to mention that the profit margin on plastic is significantly higher than resin.

>GW Buffs FW units

>They don't want people to buy FW

Lol where are you getting that GW buffs FW. Virtually every model FW makes is outclassed in performance per point by a GW proper model....

 quickfuze wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
In case you havent figured it out yet, GW proper doesnt want you spending money on FW. Yes they are the same LLC, but each team has its own profit sheets that it is responsible for producing a profit on. So if GW proper can shift your dollars from FW to GW then their performance looks better and they are the ones writing the rules. Not to mention that the profit margin on plastic is significantly higher than resin.

>GW Buffs FW units

>They don't want people to buy FW

Lol where are you getting that GW buffs FW. Virtually every model FW makes is outclassed in performance per point by a GW proper model....

R&H were buffed significantly in the transfer to Apoc, and became an actual viable army. Why would they buff them, not just copy paste the same gak crapshoot, if they wanted FW to not get sales?

Because Apo is thought off as a fluke release?
And R&H have no specific cards.

Never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by incompetence. This is just GW being GW.

 Lance845 wrote:
Never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by incompetence. This is just GW being GW.

Yeah. I mean, check the Executioner compared to the basic Battlecannon Russ.

You ignored morale on the ld5 tanks and assumed the tanks would get to aim every turn and also get to start within 36". On a normal board that's unrealistic. They'd need an Advance to get within 36" to use the Bolters. I also think you may have ignored supercharge on the titans guns, and you're also testing the dedicated antitank variant of the bane blade chassis vs the anti infantry variant of the titan (megabolters being 4+/8+). The sundry is also better at anti infantry than anti tank.

If I run equal pl of quad Las predators against fire dragons, obviously the predators will look really gakky.

With the basic weapon load out vs 5 shadows words the titan slowly grinds them out over 4 rounds, they don't do enough damage to kill him. Vs 9 at the maxed out load out they kill him and he averages about 7/9 killed in 3 rounds with morale. Considering the shadows words are significantly worse vs Infantry and the titan gets far better that seems pretty fair.


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 JNAProductions wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by incompetence. This is just GW being GW.

Yeah. I mean, check the Executioner compared to the basic Battlecannon Russ.

Weapons have to pay for range values over 36" in game modes where you can be playing on 6' x 10' tables.

Vanquisher is the only potentially op Russ weapon Imo.

the_scotsman wrote:
You ignored morale on the ld5 tanks and assumed the tanks would get to aim every turn and also get to start within 36". On a normal board that's unrealistic. They'd need an Advance to get within 36" to use the Bolters. I also think you may have ignored supercharge on the titans guns, and you're also testing the dedicated antitank variant of the bane blade chassis vs the anti infantry variant of the titan (megabolters being 4+/8+). The sundry is also better at anti infantry than anti tank.

If I run equal pl of quad Las predators against fire dragons, obviously the predators will look really gakky.

With the basic weapon load out vs 5 shadows words the titan slowly grinds them out over 4 rounds, they don't do enough damage to kill him. Vs 9 at the maxed out load out they kill him and he averages about 7/9 killed in 3 rounds with morale. Considering the shadows words are significantly worse vs Infantry and the titan gets far better that seems pretty fair.

I said I was doing it to compare the fire power output and show how lacking the Titan is for the pl not to show who would win in a real world scenario though I still think the Shadowswords mince a Titan. The leadership wasn't necessary because the tanks were destroyed anyway, the last SS may have taken an extra wound but still would have survived, and as for the Titan loadout that was per your suggestion, you said it would bring the Titans firepower more inline with the SS.

 Tank_Dweller wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You ignored morale on the ld5 tanks and assumed the tanks would get to aim every turn and also get to start within 36". On a normal board that's unrealistic. They'd need an Advance to get within 36" to use the Bolters. I also think you may have ignored supercharge on the titans guns, and you're also testing the dedicated antitank variant of the bane blade chassis vs the anti infantry variant of the titan (megabolters being 4+/8+). The sundry is also better at anti infantry than anti tank.

If I run equal pl of quad Las predators against fire dragons, obviously the predators will look really gakky.

With the basic weapon load out vs 5 shadows words the titan slowly grinds them out over 4 rounds, they don't do enough damage to kill him. Vs 9 at the maxed out load out they kill him and he averages about 7/9 killed in 3 rounds with morale. Considering the shadows words are significantly worse vs Infantry and the titan gets far better that seems pretty fair.

I said I was doing it to compare the fire power output and show how lacking the Titan is for the pl not to show who would win in a real world scenario though I still think the Shadowswords mince a Titan. The leadership wasn't necessary because the tanks were destroyed anyway, the last SS may have taken an extra wound but still would have survived, and as for the Titan loadout that was per your suggestion, you said it would bring the Titans firepower more inline with the SS.

And it did, assuming the preferred targets for all their weapons. If you compare the 4+/8+ weapon vs tanks, obviously it'll have worse firepower XD.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tank_Dweller wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You ignored morale on the ld5 tanks and assumed the tanks would get to aim every turn and also get to start within 36". On a normal board that's unrealistic. They'd need an Advance to get within 36" to use the Bolters. I also think you may have ignored supercharge on the titans guns, and you're also testing the dedicated antitank variant of the bane blade chassis vs the anti infantry variant of the titan (megabolters being 4+/8+). The sundry is also better at anti infantry than anti tank.

If I run equal pl of quad Las predators against fire dragons, obviously the predators will look really gakky.

With the basic weapon load out vs 5 shadows words the titan slowly grinds them out over 4 rounds, they don't do enough damage to kill him. Vs 9 at the maxed out load out they kill him and he averages about 7/9 killed in 3 rounds with morale. Considering the shadows words are significantly worse vs Infantry and the titan gets far better that seems pretty fair.

I said I was doing it to compare the fire power output and show how lacking the Titan is for the pl not to show who would win in a real world scenario though I still think the Shadowswords mince a Titan. The leadership wasn't necessary because the tanks were destroyed anyway, the last SS may have taken an extra wound but still would have survived, and as for the Titan loadout that was per your suggestion, you said it would bring the Titans firepower more inline with the SS.

And it did, assuming the preferred targets for all their weapons. If you compare the 4+/8+ weapon vs tanks, obviously it'll have worse firepower XD.

But it doesn't really make sense in my eyes because of the ridiculous upgrade cost you can counter any benefit by taking more units.

 Tank_Dweller wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You ignored morale on the ld5 tanks and assumed the tanks would get to aim every turn and also get to start within 36". On a normal board that's unrealistic. They'd need an Advance to get within 36" to use the Bolters. I also think you may have ignored supercharge on the titans guns, and you're also testing the dedicated antitank variant of the bane blade chassis vs the anti infantry variant of the titan (megabolters being 4+/8+). The sundry is also better at anti infantry than anti tank.

If I run equal pl of quad Las predators against fire dragons, obviously the predators will look really gakky.

With the basic weapon load out vs 5 shadows words the titan slowly grinds them out over 4 rounds, they don't do enough damage to kill him. Vs 9 at the maxed out load out they kill him and he averages about 7/9 killed in 3 rounds with morale. Considering the shadows words are significantly worse vs Infantry and the titan gets far better that seems pretty fair.

I said I was doing it to compare the fire power output and show how lacking the Titan is for the pl not to show who would win in a real world scenario though I still think the Shadowswords mince a Titan. The leadership wasn't necessary because the tanks were destroyed anyway, the last SS may have taken an extra wound but still would have survived, and as for the Titan loadout that was per your suggestion, you said it would bring the Titans firepower more inline with the SS.

You cant compare a single facet as an argument. Pl accounts for many things. Not just fire power under optimal conditions.

Well... Correction. You CAN do that. Its just meaningless as an argument.

I didn't just compare a single facet, survivability was tested as well but my main concern was the seeming lack of comparative damage output.


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the_scotsman wrote:
You ignored morale on the ld5 tanks and assumed the tanks would get to aim every turn and also get to start within 36". On a normal board that's unrealistic. They'd need an Advance to get within 36" to use the Bolters. I also think you may have ignored supercharge on the titans guns, and you're also testing the dedicated antitank variant of the bane blade chassis vs the anti infantry variant of the titan (megabolters being 4+/8+). The sundry is also better at anti infantry than anti tank.

If I run equal pl of quad Las predators against fire dragons, obviously the predators will look really gakky.

With the basic weapon load out vs 5 shadows words the titan slowly grinds them out over 4 rounds, they don't do enough damage to kill him. Vs 9 at the maxed out load out they kill him and he averages about 7/9 killed in 3 rounds with morale. Considering the shadows words are significantly worse vs Infantry and the titan gets far better that seems pretty fair.

I just did another test run but this time with the standard Titan loadout vs 6 Shadowswords and it was predicitably a lot closer this time. The Shadowswords won with 2 tanks surviving, the Titan could of performed slightly better but so could the Shadowswords, but its proved to me that I was wrong about the Titan its probably pretty well balanced for its capabilities which means this thread was pretty much a waste of time but I learned something and i'm happier knowing Titans are not useless though I still wish they had more dakka.

A complaint thread on Dakka where the OP is actually ready to change their incorrect opinion after discussion and happy about everything working pretty nicely? What sorcery is this?

Seriously though, I'm pretty happy with the titans and such working alongside everything else even if my main gripe is with the way their void shield mechanics work. It's well in tune with the whole game, somewhat effective and means you can't just ping them without commiting at least some firepower, but it just feels wrong when we have them working so well and fluffy in rules as recent as AT. Ablative wounds or something similar to first require lots of shots to open the way for big guns as a tactical consideration, that's all I'd want.

I wanted to add that I still think the Titan upgrades for the main weapons are maybe to expensive, just swapping out for Twin Vulcan Mega Bolters and Sunfurys allowed me to price in 3 extra Shadowswords, that equated to a 50% increase to the existing Shadowsword numbers and Damage output, it feels like some competitiveness is lost at that point, any other opinions on that?

Yeah o mean it's definitely worse for a "titan vs everything" game, because the guns really rely on something big enough to shoot them at to be opposing you. That's the warlords biggest drawback. If you're gonna run a Titan in a list where it's 50% of your list or more you want it cheap.

On another note, I just took a look at the Eldar titan equivalents...what's wrong with them? The Phantom is a slightly more expensive, solidly better warhound. 36" move allowing it to get into combat with an Advance action snd use its better melee turn 1, it gets an extra missile system and it's main guns and defenses are identical to the warhound. Biggest of all when it blows up it does so in your opponent's army and not yours. So 70pl seems fine for that guy.

And wraith knights are just slightly cheaper, slightly less punchy IKs. The sun cannon is literally identical to a Paladin with 2 blasts in melee on average instead of 3.5, and it costs 3pl less.

Sword Boi wk is a cheaper, less damaging gallant. So, do you figure you have enough things to fight that the extra 3.5 average blasts from the gallant would matter? Then the gallant will be better.

Sascatchewan WK has the shooting output of an errant and gets into combat turn 1.

Idk. Haven't played with them. They seem fine?

No surprise. They are resin models. Hand cast. 500 pounds buyer spends there is less profit than 500 pounds on plastic. Gw wants you to buy plastic. That's why already not tournament resin models gets 300% price hikes in 40n as well