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Heya all,

Just wondering what the standard size is for armies in 8th edition? Just trying to work out what I need to aim for.

Thanks in advance.

1500-2k is pretty normal.

Clockwork Ghost wrote:
Heya all,

Just wondering what the standard size is for armies in 8th edition? Just trying to work out what I need to aim for.

Thanks in advance.

It depends on your play area. My local GW doesn't want anything over 1500 to keep table turnover high. If you put an 8x16 table in your garage you could do 20,000 Apocalypse battles with full Titan Maniples. an independent I know of has somewhere north of 10 tables, and doesn't blink at 3000.

As a NZ player in the Auckland region, most singles events I've seen here recently are 1750 points, with just one or two at 2000.

The standard list sizes people use normally mirror what's being played at these events.

The local GW has 4’ x 4’ tables, 1k points is usual for my Orks. Some of the more elite factions can get away with 1.5k, but much more than that and you hit the ‘wall of miniatures’ effect. Any ideas of maneuver go out the window, it becomes a grind fest.

The max we play at is 2,000 points, but anywhere between 1,000 and 2,000 depending on opponent and most importantly time constraints. I don't however do tournaments, if you do that'll dictate what you should work towards.

2000 is generally considered a "full size" game for most people, but anything from 1k to 2k can work well.

Above or below that range, the rules can really start to break down.

2k is the usual, but even down to 500 I see sometimes at my GW.

Our usual is 1500 to 2000, but it really depends on the mood and how much time we want to spend.

2k, basically always, at all the stores at which I play.

Tournament standard is 2k

ERJAK wrote:
Tournament standard is 2k

Indeed, but games at this pt level can be rather lengthy.
For tourneys, its better to drop the pt size to 1500 to 1650 pts.

800 points on the 'fun nights' which are mostly designed for quick play with cool lists and newer players. Also to get them introduced to the club and make some new friends.

Outside of fun nights then it's 1.5k with 2k being common enough no one blinks an eye. We have both a thriving casual and competitive scene and we make it a point of contact when you arrange a game you state what you're looking for to avoid those 'narrative list vs 6 elder flier' match ups which no one really enjoys.

Quick game - 1500
Normal game - 2000
Team game - 3000
Monthly let's never do that again game - 4000

I still prefer 1250-1500 but the typical person is looking for 2k points. I mostly like 1250 for quick games and so I already have a list for 2v2 games if people want that, 2500 is good 2v2 point imo

As others have said 2000pts is standard, but personally, I like 1500pts because it's a quicker game that 'cuts the fat" of 2K.
At 1500 you have to make harder choices of what to include in competitive games. It also allows more "sub-par" units to contribute since they're more likely to survive to later turns. IMO, this makes for better casual games too

-

It's 1,500 to 2,000 here in Hamilton/Niagara, too.

 Galef wrote:
As others have said 2000pts is standard, but personally, I like 1500pts because it's a quicker game that 'cuts the fat" of 2K.
At 1500 you have to make harder choices of what to include in competitive games. It also allows more "sub-par" units to contribute since they're more likely to survive to later turns. IMO, this makes for better casual games too

-

It also depends on the armies involved. Space Marines and more elite armies will be hard pressed to field a complete army - fluffy non-min-max-msu - AND cover all the roles. The smallest list I've been able to create for a Full Size game - and be happy with the "composition score" was 1750. At that point I'd have 10 sniper scouts, 10 Intercessors, 10 Infiltratrors, 5/10 Heavy Support i.e. Devs/Hellblasters, a couple HQ's, some elites. 1500 Guard can have a full list with a wide swath of variety and interesting models.

Here in Rome the standard is 1750.

I haven't seen anyone play 2000 points in the last 2 years, too long, too fat.

1500-2000 is most common range.

altough some prefer low point skirmishes 500-1000.

Standard in my area is 2k, but for team games we'll often do 1k a person.

I generally see games anywhere from 1k to 2k.

My son and I run games in the 1K to 1250 point range; takes about 2 hours or so to do at this point size.

I also disagree that you need 1750+ points to run a “full” marine army, I ran a 1250 Primaris army last game (and my son was using CSM) and it was more than complete - could have easily trimmed it down to 1K and still had a fully-fleshed force.

 Stux wrote:
2000 is generally considered a "full size" game for most people, but anything from 1k to 2k can work well.

Above or below that range, the rules can really start to break down.

That's worth quoting. My local group tends to play at 1k, we tried getting down to 500 for a while to make games go faster and pretty quickly realized that we needed to ban certain things for the sake of balance, and not just the obvious stuff like "no LoWs".

 wuestenfux wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Tournament standard is 2k

Indeed, but games at this pt level can be rather lengthy.
For tourneys, its better to drop the pt size to 1500 to 1650 pts.

Except no large event except GW's little funsies tournaments is lower than 2k. Tournament standard is 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
As others have said 2000pts is standard, but personally, I like 1500pts because it's a quicker game that 'cuts the fat" of 2K.
At 1500 you have to make harder choices of what to include in competitive games. It also allows more "sub-par" units to contribute since they're more likely to survive to later turns. IMO, this makes for better casual games too

-

If you're cutting the fat to get down to 2k, how do you still have subpar units in your list? Was your list so gak that you had 600+ points of useless crap in it?

ERJAK wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Tournament standard is 2k

Indeed, but games at this pt level can be rather lengthy.
For tourneys, its better to drop the pt size to 1500 to 1650 pts.

Except no large event except GW's little funsies tournaments is lower than 2k. Tournament standard is 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
As others have said 2000pts is standard, but personally, I like 1500pts because it's a quicker game that 'cuts the fat" of 2K.
At 1500 you have to make harder choices of what to include in competitive games. It also allows more "sub-par" units to contribute since they're more likely to survive to later turns. IMO, this makes for better casual games too

-

If you're cutting the fat to get down to 2k, how do you still have subpar units in your list? Was your list so gak that you had 600+ points of useless crap in it?

Indeed, as you correctly observed official W40K tournaments have long abandoned the 2k format.

 Stormonu wrote:
My son and I run games in the 1K to 1250 point range; takes about 2 hours or so to do at this point size.

I also disagree that you need 1750+ points to run a “full” marine army, I ran a 1250 Primaris army last game (and my son was using CSM) and it was more than complete - could have easily trimmed it down to 1K and still had a fully-fleshed force.

You had 3 filled out troop units, 2 HQ's, a close support or two, a heavy support or two, a couple transports/mechanized things like Dreads, and Repulsors?

10 Infiltrators (w/Helix Adept)
10 Intercessors
10 Sniper Scouts (1 ML)
and
10 Hellblasters
are 908 Points.

The Dakka Repulsor is just over 270, The Anti-Tank version just over 300. A Redemptor is about 160.

A Devastator Squad with 10 bodies, Box Art upgrades (rather than argue about what they "should" be armed with) and a TwinLC Razorback for the combat squad is around 330. Swap the Twin LC for the Twin HB, and it's hovering around 300. We haven't added anything like Aggressors, Terminators, Assault/Vanguard Vets, or HQ costs yet.

Breton wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
My son and I run games in the 1K to 1250 point range; takes about 2 hours or so to do at this point size.

I also disagree that you need 1750+ points to run a “full” marine army, I ran a 1250 Primaris army last game (and my son was using CSM) and it was more than complete - could have easily trimmed it down to 1K and still had a fully-fleshed force.

You had 3 filled out troop units, 2 HQ's, a close support or two, a heavy support or two, a couple transports/mechanized things like Dreads, and Repulsors?

10 Infiltrators (w/Helix Adept)
10 Intercessors
10 Sniper Scouts (1 ML)
and
10 Hellblasters
are 908 Points.

The Dakka Repulsor is just over 270, The Anti-Tank version just over 300. A Redemptor is about 160.

A Devastator Squad with 10 bodies, Box Art upgrades (rather than argue about what they "should" be armed with) and a TwinLC Razorback for the combat squad is around 330. Swap the Twin LC for the Twin HB, and it's hovering around 300. We haven't added anything like Aggressors, Terminators, Assault/Vanguard Vets, or HQ costs yet.

So fully fleshed out force = max squad size to you? If that happens to be your definition, then almost no one plays fully fleshed out forces especially space marine players. Fully fleshed out force reads to me as be a force that has all of its bases covered. Which I think is pretty doable for Primaris down to even a 1000 points.

To me, something this would be a fully fleshed out force of Primaris at 1250 points:

Captain in Gravis Armor
Primaris Librarian
Intercessors x5
Intercessors x5
Intercessors x5
Redemptor Dreadnought
Interceptors x3
Hellblasters x5
Repulsor

It has something from the most of the unit types (HQ, Troop, Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy Support, etc.) and can participate in every phase of the game. It certainly isn't the most competitive way for a Primaris army to spend those points, but it would be pretty easy to build based off one or two boxed sets/easy-to-build models for a player not looking to break the bank. Besides, I think some like that list would do okay against a Chaos Space Marine force for a friendly game as described.

I also agree with Stormonu, that is would be easy to trim down to 1,000 points. Honestly, I think the repulsor isn't all that needed. It is a very nice firepower platform and meh transport for a lower point game that might actually stick around. I only included it in case someone really wants to have a vehicle in their army and had 1,250 points to work with. At a 1,000 points, I would probably drop the Repulsor and the Dreadnought and take something else with the 200 and some change points in a 1000 point list.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:


So fully fleshed out force = max squad size to you?

Partially but not entirely.

If that happens to be your definition, then almost no one plays fully fleshed out forces especially space marine players. Fully fleshed out force reads to me as be a force that has all of its bases covered. Which I think is pretty doable for Primaris down to even a 1000 points.

To me, something this would be a fully fleshed out force of Primaris at 1250 points:

Captain in Gravis Armor
Primaris Librarian
Intercessors x5
Intercessors x5
Intercessors x5
Redemptor Dreadnought
Interceptors x3
Hellblasters x5
Repulsor

It has something from the most of the unit types (HQ, Troop, Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy Support, etc.) and can participate in every phase of the game. It certainly isn't the most competitive way for a Primaris army to spend those points, but it would be pretty easy to build based off one or two boxed sets/easy-to-build models for a player not looking to break the bank. Besides, I think some like that list would do okay against a Chaos Space Marine force for a friendly game as described.

I also agree with Stormonu, that is would be easy to trim down to 1,000 points. Honestly, I think the repulsor isn't all that needed. It is a very nice firepower platform and meh transport for a lower point game that might actually stick around. I only included it in case someone really wants to have a vehicle in their army and had 1,250 points to work with. At a 1,000 points, I would probably drop the Repulsor and the Dreadnought and take something else with the 200 and some change points in a 1000 point list.

You have one transport (and it's the first thing you say you'd get rid of), zero infiltrate, and your deep strike is limited to a suicide squad of jump packer's, so your mobility is severely lacking. Your Plan B overlaps are few and far between. Taking a Gravis Captain while planning to dump the Repulsor as "fat" and not taking any Close Combat capable support squads says you have no plans/desire to use the power fist or power sword offensively and he's little more than a walking reroll aura. I'm not sure what your Librarian is for. What powers did you take? At least 1/3 of them are CCW oriented so not part of your complete list.

My 1750 List is
Primaris Calgar
Tiggy
a Primaris LT with Power Sword

10x Infiltrators with Helix Adept
10 Scout Snipers, Cloaks, 1ML
10 Intercessors, 2 GL

3 Aggressors
1 Primaris Apothecary
Redemptor with Plasma and Onlsaught

5 Devs, 4 Missile Launchers or PC's I'm still playing with it - 1 Cherub

1 Repulsor with Onslaught and either/or TLHB or TLLC Still playing with this too.

2 Infiltrating units- one prevents Deep Striking, one snipes, Both could combat squad, depending on objective locations.
1 Intercessor could Combat Squad with two GL's, or backfield camp one objective depending on objective locations.
I have up to 6 units with Objective Secured with 5 Secured Votes or 3 with 10. You have three with 5, that will be lucky to make it across the table if they need to.
Depending on deployment, and objective locations I can be on six of them before turn one.

The Aggressors, Calgar, LT, and Apothecary all fit in the Repulsor so they're not as footsloggingly slow as molasses.

The Devastators with Missile Launchers can perform as Anti-Tank with backup from the redemptor and the Repulsor, or double down on the anti-infantry if 20 bolter troops isn't going to be enough vs a horde.

The Repulsor becomes a pretty juicy target, but that's what terrain and the Redemptor are for. If my opponent overcommits to the Repulsor, the Redemptor gets some easier movement. If the balance on both, I should still be able to deliver the cargo without too much fuss, assuming there's enough terrain. When they get out of the Repulsor I'd prefer to shoot stuff, but the power fists with to hit and to wound rerolls make a nice plan B for the Devastators and PapaSmurt makes a Plan C.

The Apothecary makes for nice psychological warfare making you worry about PapaSmurf and the Aggressors regaining wounds - especially after I've annoyed you with the Helix Adept on the Infiltrators in cover on your side of the board saving at a 2+, but also has a nice Plan B potential with the Reductor Pistol - S4 -3 D2 = effectively a more damaging Power Sword in a very short range pistol.

When I talk about fully fleshed out, I'm talking about flexibility, combo units, self sufficient units, Units that can move fast or units that don't have to move fast, because they get to take a short cut to the other side of the field. Units that can perform two or more tasks, maybe one task isn't as good as the other unit, but they can pick up some slack if something went wrong. Units like sniper scouts, and infiltrator Omni Scramblers that will throw a monkey wrench in opposition plans. The biggest threat to my sniper scouts that isn't already engaged with a bigger threat of their own (i.e. your Redemptor and Repulsor vs my Redemptor and Repulsor) is your librarian. 9 sniper shots a turn, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 generates a moral wound. After two turns - if nobody is lucky - your libby has 2 failed save wounds and 2 mortal wounds, and is dead or ready to die next turn. if you're lucky you've Smite'd them a couple times. If I'm lucky they've already scored their objective victory point(s) and still outnumber your Intercessors 8 to 5 - if they're even there - because you're probably more interested in dislodging the infiltrators with their own pocket medic.

Now I realize I'm comparing a 1750 point list to a 1250 point list. But that was pretty much my point. The secondary, and tertiary options - the things you use when you react to where your plan went wrong - at 1250 are next to non-existant, the primary options are hard enough to fill. You have all but admitted you had to concede at least half the board to your opponent. At 1750 I had more units that could SET UP on your side of the board than you were planning to MOVE to mine at 1250. How are you planning on winning missions like "Blitz" where you have to cross the LONG side of the table?

When I talk about fully fleshed out, I'm talking about flexibility, combo units, self sufficient units, Units that can move fast or units that don't have to move fast, because they get to take a short cut to the other side of the field. Units that can perform two or more tasks, maybe one task isn't as good as the other unit, but they can pick up some slack if something went wrong. Units like sniper scouts, and infiltrator Omni Scramblers that will throw a monkey wrench in opposition plans. The biggest threat to my sniper scouts that isn't already engaged with a bigger threat of their own (i.e. your Redemptor and Repulsor vs my Redemptor and Repulsor) is your librarian. 9 sniper shots a turn, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 generates a moral wound. After two turns - if nobody is lucky - your libby has 2 failed save wounds and 2 mortal wounds, and is dead or ready to die next turn. if you're lucky you've Smite'd them a couple times. If I'm lucky they've already scored their objective victory point(s) and still outnumber your Intercessors 8 to 5 - if they're even there - because you're probably more interested in dislodging the infiltrators with their own pocket medic.

with that definition you realise have eliminated all themed armies?

Not Online!!! wrote:

When I talk about fully fleshed out, I'm talking about flexibility, combo units, self sufficient units, Units that can move fast or units that don't have to move fast, because they get to take a short cut to the other side of the field. Units that can perform two or more tasks, maybe one task isn't as good as the other unit, but they can pick up some slack if something went wrong. Units like sniper scouts, and infiltrator Omni Scramblers that will throw a monkey wrench in opposition plans. The biggest threat to my sniper scouts that isn't already engaged with a bigger threat of their own (i.e. your Redemptor and Repulsor vs my Redemptor and Repulsor) is your librarian. 9 sniper shots a turn, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 generates a moral wound. After two turns - if nobody is lucky - your libby has 2 failed save wounds and 2 mortal wounds, and is dead or ready to die next turn. if you're lucky you've Smite'd them a couple times. If I'm lucky they've already scored their objective victory point(s) and still outnumber your Intercessors 8 to 5 - if they're even there - because you're probably more interested in dislodging the infiltrators with their own pocket medic.

with that definition you realise have eliminated all themed armies?

You may have missed the original point being made. The original point was that at lower points level the Elite Cost/Low Model Count armies couldn't create the "fully fleshed out" armies. Not that people MUST take them, but they should have the potential to take them.

I love theme armies. I have a Death/Raven Wing project on my bench. They're an even stronger example of the issues involved - Deathwing and Ravenwing do not have any Troops options and can't Chart Shift with Belial/Sammael, can't take the Battalion detachment that way, don't generate CP at the same rate as more horde armies who can fill out detachments/Formations much easier, and get screwed on Objective Securing. I absolutely could have made what I would have considered a fleshed out Combi-Wing army in earlier editions - that's where the project came from in the first place- between Teleport Homer shenanigans, rending assault cannons, Thunderhammers, Cyclones, etc.