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I think they have a 5+++, but only against stuff from SP. Not 100% on that though.

well, ya if they get a FNP they get a FNP I don't see why they wouldn't.

but the model that was "supposed" to take the wound can't get an FNP, if that's the argument. It's quite clear the damage is never resolved on that model.

Yes. Shield Drones have a 4+/3++/5+++.

But the big question is whether or not FNP gets to activate in an attack sequence that has already ended.

FNPs activate when ever you resolve wounds no ? not when you resolve wound rolls.

if it didnt work that way, then the custodes could never activate there psychic phase only FNP.

Unless there is a syntax difference I am missing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I looked it up. The syntax on the drones FNP is triggered when ever the drone loses a wound , like everything else. doesn't mater what causes a wound to be lost,,, combat,,, shooting,,,, mortal wounds,,,, savior protocols,,,, explosions,,,, perrils and etc...
FNP gets triggered.

So yes, drones with a FNP get it if they use savior protocols FNP is not a part of the attack sequence.

My issue was that GW seems to be clear that they don't want stuff occurring between the wound-to-SP timing. If you allow FNP, you have to allow all the other rules that trigger off wounds and damage, right?

Because remember, only the wounds and mortal wounds from the attack seem to be going away. The bit that cancels out further rules from triggering is that "attack sequence ends" bit.

What does it mean to end an attack sequence like that?

What abilities that are normally a part of the attack sequence can trigger after the wound roll?

For example, take C-Beams. We clearly have to roll those one by one now. Thank goodness there's only one attack per weapon. But are we going to trigger them on the Drone unit after every failed FNP roll now?

--Break in train of thought here--

Based on numerous discussions that I have had to resolve this rules conundrum, I actually would argue no to things like C-Beams working on the basis of the FAQs. I think one resolution to the problem is that SP cancels out the wounds and mortal wounds of the weapon attack and allocates a new mortal wound, but the rules associated with the attack continue onto the Drone. This allows for FNP.

BUT THEN WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE WRATH OF MARS? It's still not a part of the weapon attack. Does the Drone now just have to save two mortals? One from the SP and one from the Wrath of Mars rule, which now is targeting the Drone a la the Tremor Shells example?

It bears note that, under your interpretation, the Shield Drones wouldn't even take the MW from SP, because "the attack phase ended". However, since GW specifically mentions that the Drones take a MW and THEN the attack sequence ends, any abilities that trigger upon taking a Wound (like FnP), are allowable.

As for WoM, the Stratagem specifically ties the MWs to the attack, as it ends with "in addition to any other damage". So, as per the new FAQ, SP can "eat" those MWs as well, reducing them down to 1 MW per attack.

Edit: in other words: you might be overthinking this one a tad, buddy.

FNPs are not part of the attack sequence. They are an effect that is triggered based on losing a wound.

You can lose a wound as a result of an attack sequence but FNP doesn't rely on an attack sequence. It is a triggered and parallel effect.

Weapon attacks are a kind of attack your model makes. Thus there is no problem with "each time a unit makes an attack in the fight phase."

As long as that attack is made with a weapon,,, i.e. ALL attacks.

and according to the new FAQ the mortal wounds gained in addition are turned into 1 mortal wound along with all the rest of the damage.

It's quite clear now, with the FAQs, not sure where the confusion is ?

WoM mortals once generated become seperate wounds

I roll 12 wound rolls rolling 2 of each number i need 4+ to wound

6 dice wound 2 are 6's generateing mortals in addition

The TAU player now has the choice to try and saviour protocol the 6 attacks The 2 mortal wounds are put to one side

The tau players resolves their saviour protocols ending the 6 attacks on the target unit and generateing 6 mortal wounds on the drones and resolving FNP's (unless they run out of drones)

Now the Tau player can try and saviour the mortals if they have drones left ending the mortals on the target unit and generateing new mortals on the drones followed by FNP's

The MWs don't get put to the side, as per the FAQ. MWs generated by attacks (I have to assume this includes MWs that are generated because of a Stratagem, as long as they rely on making an attack), are combined with the attack and reduced to 1 MW when the attack is Protocol'd.

 flandarz wrote:
The MWs don't get put to the side, as per the FAQ. MWs generated by attacks (I have to assume this includes MWs that are generated because of a Stratagem, as long as they rely on making an attack), are combined with the attack and reduced to 1 MW when the attack is Protocol'd.

Except the insane thing is, they are, per the BRB FAQ:

Q: Some attacks deal mortal wounds in addition to their normal damage. When are these mortal wounds allocated?
A: Any mortal wounds inflicted by an attack in addition to normal damage should be allocated after that attack has been resolved (note that this may prevent fast dice rolling when resolving attacks with this ability).

At this point, someone just shoot me. Because there seem to be three valid ways to resolve this rules problem.

If mortal wounds dealt in ADDITION fall outside of the attack sequence, then they cannot be SPed AT ALL (because they lack their own wound roll). Very tempting for anyone with this sort of rule on their weapons or stratagems though.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
The MWs don't get put to the side, as per the FAQ. MWs generated by attacks (I have to assume this includes MWs that are generated because of a Stratagem, as long as they rely on making an attack), are combined with the attack and reduced to 1 MW when the attack is Protocol'd.

Except the insane thing is, they are, per the BRB FAQ:

Q: Some attacks deal mortal wounds in addition to their normal damage. When are these mortal wounds allocated?
A: Any mortal wounds inflicted by an attack in addition to normal damage should be allocated after that attack has been resolved (note that this may prevent fast dice rolling when resolving attacks with this ability).

At this point, someone just shoot me. Because there seem to be three valid ways to resolve this rules problem.

If mortal wounds dealt in ADDITION fall outside of the attack sequence, then they cannot be SPed AT ALL (because they lack their own wound roll). Very tempting for anyone with this sort of rule on their weapons or stratagems though.

That is forgetting the concept that general rules ie BRB are over ruled by specific rules ie Saviour Protocols.
The BRB FAQ applys generally, but the Saviour Protocols being a specific rule and it's FAQ takes precedence over the general.

Ie the BRB FAQ applies to not saviour protocoled attacks.

We have a clear ruling.

Why are people trying to make this unclear?

I don’t like it as my opponent’s Drones will be even tankier, but dems da roolz, bois...

 JohnnyHell wrote:
We have a clear ruling.

Why are people trying to make this unclear?

I don’t like it as my opponent’s Drones will be even tankier, but dems da roolz, bois...

Maybe because we now have three FAQs about this ? And they contradict each other ? This is now worse than before <insert quad facepalm genestealer emoticon>

Page 114 – Saviour Protocols
Change this ability to read:
‘When resolving an attack made against a <Sept>
Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit whilst that unit is
within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Drones unit, if the wound
roll is successful, you can roll one D6; on a 2+ that Drones
unit suffers 1 mortal wound and the attack sequence ends.’

Q: Some attacks deal mortal wounds in addition to their normal
damage. When are these mortal wounds allocated?
A: Any mortal wounds inflicted by an attack in addition to
normal damage should be allocated after that attack has
been resolved (note that this may prevent fast dice rolling
when resolving attacks with this ability).

Q: If an attack inflicts mortal wounds on the target, and the
attack is subsequently allocated to a Drones unit as a result
of the Saviour Protocols ability, what happens to those mortal
wounds inflicted?
A: They are cancelled. All damage and mortal wounds
inflicted as the result of that attack is reduced to the
mortal wound inflicted by the Saviour Protocols ability on
that Drones unit.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Yes. Shield Drones have a 4+/3++/5+++.

But the big question is whether or not FNP gets to activate in an attack sequence that has already ended.

Since when were they 3++?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
We have a clear ruling.

Why are people trying to make this unclear?

I don’t like it as my opponent’s Drones will be even tankier, but dems da roolz, bois...

Well, personally, I am motivated by the fact that if we go with the simplest understanding (which seems to be the majority opinion), SP will reduce all damage, "mortal wounds instead," and "mortal wounds in addition" to 1 mortal wound which can be FNPed. In which case, we can no longer speed roll the mortal wounds. We have to do the entire thing one by one, lest the Tau player cherry pick the 6s first.

The minority theory seems to be that SP only saves damage and "mortal wounds instead," and you add the "mortal wounds in addition" after the attack is resolved, per the BRB FAQ.

 AndrewC wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Yes. Shield Drones have a 4+/3++/5+++.

But the big question is whether or not FNP gets to activate in an attack sequence that has already ended.

Since when were they 3++?

My bad. Was thinking of the MV52s (the good Shield Drones). The regular ones have 4+/4++/5+++.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
We have a clear ruling.

Why are people trying to make this unclear?

I don’t like it as my opponent’s Drones will be even tankier, but dems da roolz, bois...

Maybe because we now have three FAQs about this ? And they contradict each other ? This is now worse than before <insert quad facepalm genestealer emoticon>

Page 114 – Saviour Protocols
Change this ability to read:
‘When resolving an attack made against a <Sept>
Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit whilst that unit is
within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Drones unit, if the wound
roll is successful, you can roll one D6; on a 2+ that Drones
unit suffers 1 mortal wound and the attack sequence ends.’

Q: Some attacks deal mortal wounds in addition to their normal
damage. When are these mortal wounds allocated?
A: Any mortal wounds inflicted by an attack in addition to
normal damage should be allocated after that attack has
been resolved (note that this may prevent fast dice rolling
when resolving attacks with this ability).

Q: If an attack inflicts mortal wounds on the target, and the
attack is subsequently allocated to a Drones unit as a result
of the Saviour Protocols ability, what happens to those mortal
wounds inflicted?
A: They are cancelled. All damage and mortal wounds
inflicted as the result of that attack is reduced to the
mortal wound inflicted by the Saviour Protocols ability on
that Drones unit.

Yep. That is a clear contradiction. Plus any ruling that makes tau drones stronger really makes me scratch my head a bit. They should have just changed it to the drones are slain if they are going to be able to nullify an additional mortal being generated. That is just silly to "nullify" any attack. Is there any other example of an attack being nullified in the entirety of the game?

Is there any other example of an attack being nullified in the entirety of the game?

Grot Shields.

@Xenomancers
The only way to have both FAQs make sense are if additional mortal wounds have different timing than normal mortal wounds.

That or we ignore one of them. Probably the BRB because it's more generalized?

I am going to ask FAQ again.

 flandarz wrote:

Is there any other example of an attack being nullified in the entirety of the game?

Grot Shields.

Did they rewrite grot shields like savior protocols too? Where it says the attack sequence ends? I'm pretty sure grot shields just states they are destroyed.

Yup. Grot Shields got that first, in fact.

So the way that the ATT forum has ruled this (last time I checked) is that if the mortal wound triggers on an attack roll, then it goes to the original target and can't be intercepted. but if it triggers off the wound roll, then it gets nullified with savior protocols.

balmong7 wrote:
So the way that the ATT forum has ruled this (last time I checked) is that if the mortal wound triggers on an attack roll, then it goes to the original target and can't be intercepted. but if it triggers off the wound roll, then it gets nullified with savior protocols.

That’s not how it works and it’s even in the new FAQ Q&A under tau. It all goes to the drone who does get fnp. 0 questions asked. Sorry

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

balmong7 wrote:
So the way that the ATT forum has ruled this (last time I checked) is that if the mortal wound triggers on an attack roll, then it goes to the original target and can't be intercepted. but if it triggers off the wound roll, then it gets nullified with savior protocols.

That’s not how it works and it’s even in the new FAQ Q&A under tau. It all goes to the drone who does get fnp. 0 questions asked. Sorry

So this is where they are pulling that interpretation from

Q: If an attack inflicts mortal wounds on a unit as a result of a
hit roll, and the attack sequence ends before it successfully wounds
the target (e.g. the Hellfire Shells Stratagem or an attack made
with a shokk attack gun with a Strength characteristic of 11+ that
fails to wound the target), can I allocate the mortal wounds to a
Drones unit with the Saviour Protocols ability?
A: No. As the attack sequence has ended before the target
has been wounded, there is no wound to allocate to the
Drones unit. Therefore the target suffers the mortal
wounds as normal.

If I am reading what you said correctly, then the Shokk attack gun is now a better weapon against tau as long as they fail their wound rolls?

This looks open and shut.

If a a target is wounded by a successful roll it can be allocated to the drones and any mortals cancelled. If the target isn't wounded by a wound roll you cannot allocate any wounds to it.

Seems pretty clear.

Dadavester wrote:
This looks open and shut.

If a a target is wounded by a successful roll it can be allocated to the drones and any mortals cancelled. If the target isn't wounded by a wound roll you cannot allocate any wounds to it.

Seems pretty clear.

Hellfire shells never makes a wound roll. Therefore it cant be allocated to the drones unit.

If a unit attacks a riptide with a gun that does MW in addition, and the wound roll fails, the MW in addition still hit the riptide. Forgot this FAQ ?

Q: Some attacks deal mortal wounds in addition to their normal
damage. When are these mortal wounds allocated?
A: Any mortal wounds inflicted by an attack in addition to
normal damage should be allocated after that attack has
been resolved (note that this may prevent fast dice rolling
when resolving attacks with this ability).

 p5freak wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
This looks open and shut.

If a a target is wounded by a successful roll it can be allocated to the drones and any mortals cancelled. If the target isn't wounded by a wound roll you cannot allocate any wounds to it.

Seems pretty clear.

Hellfire shells never makes a wound roll. Therefore it cant be allocated to the drones unit.

If a unit attacks a riptide with a gun that does MW in addition, and the wound roll fails, the MW in addition still hit the riptide. Forgot this FAQ ?

Q: Some attacks deal mortal wounds in addition to their normal
damage. When are these mortal wounds allocated?
A: Any mortal wounds inflicted by an attack in addition to
normal damage should be allocated after that attack has
been resolved (note that this may prevent fast dice rolling
when resolving attacks with this ability).

I agree with you?

Maybe I wasn't clear. If a unit isn't wounded by a wound roll you cannot allocate the MW to the drones. In order to allocate the wound to a drone there must be a successful wound roll.

Ok, a small misunderstanding

However if a mortal wound is hit by the to hit roll, and the wound roll is also successful, then all wounds for that phase would go to the drone

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
However if a mortal wound is hit by the to hit roll, and the wound roll is also successful, then all wounds for that phase would go to the drone

Yes, due to the successful wound roll.

Basically to hits that trigger mortals, the player better hope for a failed wound roll. We all know that’s not very likely, however. Not to a massive degree anyway. Still very happy protocols didn’t get touched.