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 ScarletRose wrote:
Ehhh, it's not like the nerd community doesn't have a problem with an alt-right underbelly. See the last few Marvel movies and the whining about how dare Disney have female characters, etc etc.

Alt-right. Underbelly. Gotcha. Whining that female characters should not exist, rather than criticism of certain characters. Do you have anything to add other than tar, feathers and hyperbole?

Except there wasn't tens of thousands of people, just a very loud minority. The voice of the 'normal' people spoke with their dollars at the box office, the sales of merchandise, etc.

They really did. Even with a much larger cinema going population, prebuilt audience and hype, the sequels have not outperformed their OT counterparts. Financial performance doesn't give us a 1:1 metric for quality but it shows us what 'normal' people (not fanboys) thought of the movies.

The sales have tanked and show a general apathy- the trend is clear from Awakens(the first Starwars movie in a decade) to Solo. I happen to think Rogue One was a victim of that apathy, I enjoyed the movie better than some prequels and a lot more than TFA.
The apathy is reflected in merch sales which are also in freefall- which is to be expected. Longevity in merch sales only occurs when you have a core fan base - which was rejected by Disney. They'll have another last spike after the Rise of Skywalker when new stuff comes out and than they will flatline.

Being hard into the game certainly means that I can take a bit more enjoyment out of all the films/tv/books than a lot of people seem to, as a new flashy ship appears and for me that is something new and exciting to blow up on the table top!

I will say that I really dislike the prequels, sequels and Resistance but they have not soured my perception of the franchise as a whole because (as well as the above reason) they all have at least something good to take out of it (namely pretty space ships blowing each other up) as well as there being such a wealth of other material around the universe that if I get disheartened with it I just dive into a different portion. I found TLJ a massive let down but rather than rage or whine about it I reread the original Thrawn books then got hyped to see a new type of A-Wing and bomber in X-Wing. Its like when kids are acting up, you may wish for a second to drown them but it doesn't stop you loving them.

Also on X-Wing, so hyped to get second edition Epic! Very little info so far but what has been shown looks cracking and also like most of the flaws of v1 have been fixed. Thankfully the buy in looks reasonable as well.

I was an XW/TF/XVT/XWA man myself. Battlefront never really satisfied the way the space combat sims did. I played FirstStrike mod for many years, but that mod died a sad death. There's nothing really for me in the Videogames now - might look at the tabletop.

 =Angel= wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
Ehhh, it's not like the nerd community doesn't have a problem with an alt-right underbelly. See the last few Marvel movies and the whining about how dare Disney have female characters, etc etc.

Alt-right. Underbelly. Gotcha. Whining that female characters should not exist, rather than criticism of certain characters. Do you have anything to add other than tar, feathers and hyperbole?

Not quite as hyperbolic as you'd think mate. At the time TLJ came out, we had some regulars at my LGW, which coincidentally had a female manager at the time, who damn near verbatim said, "TLJ sucked because there's no way a woman could ever attain the rank that admiral Holdo did". More than one regular's sole problem with TLJ lay entirely with Holdo's character. . . if that's not some misogynist/incel/alt-right claptrap, I don't know what is.

The issue there is, that's real life, there's not some link I can post and demonstrate the point with. Thing is, from my point of view, even if these people constitute only 5% of a very vocal minority in the total nerd community population, that's still a big problem to deal with.

Somewhere at sometime, someone said something dumb.

Who cares.

No one here is saying TLJ is bad because it has female characters.

Princess Leia was a strong female character in 1977. The overwhelming majority of SW fans have always been okay with this.

If at all possible, I think we aught to leave discussion about the frankly embarrassing behaviour of childish adult 'fans' and whatever political leanings they may or may not have by the wayside - on account of that whole 'no politics' thing and the fact that we were able to have 14 pages of reasonable discussion without resorting to dismissing each other as such.

I was an XW/TF/XVT/XWA man myself. Battlefront never really satisfied the way the space combat sims did. I played FirstStrike mod for many years, but that mod died a sad death. There's nothing really for me in the Videogames now - might look at the tabletop.

It still blows my mind that they signed an exclusive licence with EA. Those space sequences in Battlefront 2 feel like such a tease.

What a bad deal.

 Manchu wrote:
Somewhere at sometime, someone said something dumb.

Who cares.

No one here is saying TLJ is bad because it has female characters.

Princess Leia was a strong female character in 1977. The overwhelming majority of SW fans have always been okay with this.

Except some people on here HAVE said that and leia was never a strong female character. Very specifically her chewie and the droids have no story arch. Her role in episode 1-3 is get captured 3 times and saved by the men while being the potential love interest of luke and then the actual love interest of han. She didnt get thrown into that bikini because she was a great character. In 79 we had ripley. THAT is a strong female character. Princess leia is the same as any other princess in any other movie.

 Manchu wrote:
Somewhere at sometime, someone said something dumb.

Who cares.

No one here is saying TLJ is bad because it has female characters.

Princess Leia was a strong female character in 1977. The overwhelming majority of SW fans have always been okay with this.

Agreed

I and my friends (including shock horror some women) ALL thought TLJ was a pile of gak not because it had a couple of badly written female characters who were prominant but rather for all the other major issues with the awful script, pace, story, plot, characterisation and imagery of the film.

Considering how many other Good or even average films have female leads or major roles the idea that all those who dare to find issue with this IMO stinking pile of garbage is frankly shocking. Indeed I think Wonder Woman is the best DC film so far and Captain Marvel one of the better Marvel - again not because or despite their being a female lead but because they did not have the awful script, pace, story, plot, characterisation and imagery of the TLJ.

There's literally no point in having this discussion. You're never going to persuade someone who can dismiss all criticism of something with "um, uh, urr, shut up incel!".

 Yodhrin wrote:
There's literally no point in having this discussion. You're never going to persuade someone who can dismiss all criticism of something with "um, uh, urr, shut up incel!".

What does Incel mean?

 Lance845 wrote:
Except some people on here HAVE said that and leia was never a strong female character.

Which is obviously, laughably false.

Han and Leia are foils. When we meet them Han has no commitment beyond the personal and Leia’s commitments are totally impersonal. This is already a gender role inversion: traditionally, female characters are concerned with the world of personal relationships between individuals while male characters are concerned with wider political issues. Over the course of the trilogy, Han and Leia’s characters develop such that Han joins a cause that is bigger than him or his friends while Leia learns that friendship and even romantic love are what make the bigs issues like freedom matter. All along the way, Leia is portrayed as a person fully capable of taking charging and inspiring others as well as being a capable and passionate person in her own right.

Since 1977, Star Wars fans have not just accepted but full-on loved this.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
There's literally no point in having this discussion. You're never going to persuade someone who can dismiss all criticism of something with "um, uh, urr, shut up incel!".

What does Incel mean?

Involuntarily celibate. Men that are not, or feel they cannot, meet or interact with women and often are very hostile and ignorant about women online.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
There's literally no point in having this discussion. You're never going to persuade someone who can dismiss all criticism of something with "um, uh, urr, shut up incel!".

What does Incel mean?

Involuntarily celibate. Men that are not, or feel they cannot, meet or interact with women and often are very hostile and ignorant about women online.

Ok thank - never heard of that one!

 ScarletRose wrote:
Ehhh, it's not like the nerd community doesn't have a problem with an alt-right underbelly. See the last few Marvel movies and the whining about how dare Disney have female characters, etc etc.

Can't say you are wrong here, but there is a huge difference between "any person that dislikes TLJ is some nazi incel" and "proper criticism of these bad movies has been hijacked by scumbags".
Because the former has been used by Disney-friendly media and I find concerning that such desperate defense is repeated here.

I still pine for the old X-wing vs. Tie Fighter game. THAT was a great Star Wars video game.


Edit: I was also a fan boy of the old Wing Commander series. Someone should really pick it up for a TT game.

 Easy E wrote:
I still pine for the old X-wing vs. Tie Fighter game. THAT was a great Star Wars video game.


Edit: I was also a fan boy of the old Wing Commander series. Someone should really pick it up for a TT game.

I prefered Colony Wars

 Manchu wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Except some people on here HAVE said that and leia was never a strong female character.

Which is obviously, laughably false.

Han and Leia are foils. When we meet them Han has no commitment beyond the personal and Leia’s commitments are totally impersonal. This is already a gender role inversion: traditionally, female characters are concerned with the world of personal relationships between individuals while male characters are concerned with wider political issues. Over the course of the trilogy, Han and Leia’s characters develop such that Han joins a cause that is bigger than him or his friends while Leia learns that friendship and even romantic love are what make the bigs issues like freedom matter. All along the way, Leia is portrayed as a person fully capable of taking charging and inspiring others as well as being a capable and passionate person in her own right.

Since 1977, Star Wars fans have not just accepted but full-on loved this.

Disagree. Leia has BECOME that. Expanded materials in books comics and games have MADE her a strong character. But especially a new hope taken on its own original theatrical cut shes nothing special. Empire continues her nothing specialness. And jedi caps off her nothing specialness by putting her right back where we found her movie 1.

“Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader’s leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.”

“Will someone get this big walking carpet out of my way?”

“Someone has to save our skins. Into the garbage chute, fly boy."

"I don't know where you get your delusions, laser-brain."

“Would it help if I got out and pushed?”

"I'd just as soon kiss a Wookie!"



Yup. Total wallflower. Complete pushover. No evidence of her being a strong character in the movies at all. Just gets rescued all the time and nothing else.

That's sarcasm. I mean, I assume you got it, because I laid it on with a fething trowel, but it is the internet so yeah: SAR-CAS-UM.

 Lance845 wrote:
Disagree. Leia has BECOME that. Expanded materials in books comics and games have MADE her a strong character. But especially a new hope taken on its own original theatrical cut shes nothing special. Empire continues her nothing specialness. And jedi caps off her nothing specialness by putting her right back where we found her movie 1.

This is simply incorrect.

The arc I described happens on-screen, not in comics and novels. Also, it’s impossible to say Leia is “nothing special” in ANH. She is portrayed from the beginning of the film as a leader of the Rebel Alliance and a senator of the Republic. She is a principled, strong-willed person who has the ability to inspire as a leader. She is physically courageous and competent. By RotJ, she has grown as a person by coming to value personal relationships as much as political ideals. All the same, she continues to be portrayed as brave, noble, and smart.

A positive attitude about female characters has always been a part of the Star Wars setting and a part of Star Wars fandom. Disney has not added anything to this and has arguably weakened it by inventing one-dimensional, unlikeable female characters.

We also see Leia briefing troopers and pilots just before the evacuation of the rebel base o Hoth. In a clear and direct way.
Compare with how Holdo managed the crisis in TLJ, and don't be surprised why people compare the two characters unfavorably for Ms Purple.

Ripley and Leia were my strong female characters in my youth. Possible honorable mention is Velasquez.

"Hey Velasquez, you ever been mistaken for a man?"

"No, have YOU?"

Rogue One and Solo have been the best of the modern Star Wars films. Not only did they feel the most Star Wars, they LOOKED the most Star Wars. Everything from the writing to the cinematography in the two new trilogy movies so far feel like sub-awesome EU fanfiction brought to the big screen.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Everything from the writing to the cinematography in the two new trilogy movies so far feel like sub-awesome EU fanfiction brought to the big screen.

There's a shot in TFA where she's speeding along the desert with a crashed destroyer in the background. It screamed Star Wars to me so much it gave me a tingle - but that feeling evaporated when they slapped the "nostalgia" on too thick.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I still pine for the old X-wing vs. Tie Fighter game. THAT was a great Star Wars video game.


Edit: I was also a fan boy of the old Wing Commander series. Someone should really pick it up for a TT game.

I prefered Colony Wars

Sucha good game.

Manchu wrote:
A positive attitude about female characters has always been a part of the Star Wars setting and a part of Star Wars fandom. Disney has not added anything to this and has arguably weakened it by inventing one-dimensional, unlikeable female characters.

And I'd say you're wrong, Rose, Holdo, and Rey are wonderful characters. With Rose being easily one of my favorite new additions, but again the so called 'fans' the alt-right minority that claims to be the core that they're not, harassed Kelly Marie Tran to the point she closed her social media accounts, are the same ones saying TLJ is a bad film.

Easy E wrote:I still pine for the old X-wing vs. Tie Fighter game. THAT was a great Star Wars video game.


Edit: I was also a fan boy of the old Wing Commander series. Someone should really pick it up for a TT game.

Yeah that was one of my all time favorites too. Same with Wing Commander, which yeah would make a great TT game, but alas it's owned by EA so it'll never get back to Chris Robert's hands, and it'll never see another game unless EA figures out how to microtransaction it to death. And between loot box hell or just not having it.... I'd just rather not have it. The live action movie would be a more enjoyable product.

=Angel= wrote:
They really did. Even with a much larger cinema going population, prebuilt audience and hype, the sequels have not outperformed their OT counterparts. Financial performance doesn't give us a 1:1 metric for quality but it shows us what 'normal' people (not fanboys) thought of the movies.

The sales have tanked and show a general apathy- the trend is clear from Awakens(the first Starwars movie in a decade) to Solo. I happen to think Rogue One was a victim of that apathy, I enjoyed the movie better than some prequels and a lot more than TFA.
The apathy is reflected in merch sales which are also in freefall- which is to be expected. Longevity in merch sales only occurs when you have a core fan base - which was rejected by Disney. They'll have another last spike after the Rise of Skywalker when new stuff comes out and than they will flatline.

Despite Solo being sabotaged by neckbeards still mad at TLJ, posting negative reviews to scare people off without ever having seen it, and boycotting again cause...incels. Despite it being another fantastic movie, along with Rogue One, which is arguably the best/second best Star Wars film. (With RotJ being my personal number one).

Merch sales were in the toilet long before TFA, and are actually doing quite well, the problem is over saturation of product. Which is why stuff is sitting on shelves. People have already bought one of this and that, and their kids don't need a second 'x' figure with a different coat. And the core fan base was embraced by Disney for TFA, and then they wanted to keep things fresh since the major complaint of TFA was it was too much like New Hope. (And again...it's not.) So they did something radically different with TLJ. But apparently that innovation was pushing away that 'core'.

More to the fact, Rogue One, TFA, TLJ, and Solo are all BETTER films then Lucas's own Episode 1,2 & 3, want to call it a low bar? Sure, go ahead. But this next movie will come out, it'll gross between 1.5 and 2 billion easily and Disney will then be hard at work doing something else with the Star Wars franchise.

Here is a bizarre idea for you KingmanHighborn, how about you try to have this discussion without being rude and throwing insults around?

Just because someone does not like the film does not make them a "neckbeard" nor an incel. Just because someone thinks the characters lack depth does not either.

Just because some of the most vocal critics shared those outlooks does not mean that all people who do not like the film do.

Is that plain enough for you?

I haven't insulted anyone. Just stated the truth.

There's very few times I've seen someone post legitimate criticism of the Disney era films. If it's not alt-right whining about the women and politics of the films, it's people complaining that the first was too much like A New Hope and TLJ was too much of a departure from formula, acting like a Goldilocks with no 'just right' option being made available to them.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I haven't insulted anyone. Just stated the truth.

There's very few times I've seen someone post legitimate criticism of the Disney era films. If it's not alt-right whining about the women and politics of the films, it's people complaining that the first was too much like A New Hope and TLJ was too much of a departure from formula, acting like a Goldilocks with no 'just right' option being made available to them.

"Sabotaged by neckbeards" and "Sequels > Prequels" are both opinions, albeit I can partially agree with the second one (in the sense that, as an example, there are some aspects of filmmaking that are indeed way better in the sequels compared to the prequels).
And sorry, no. People posted a lot of good criticism for the sequels, especially TLJ. The movie has been defined elsewhere "fractally awful" not by chance. Every bad element can be de-constructed in a shrapnel of horrible choices, and so on.

Again haven't seen one. And I've said before the bomber scene was badly done, but even then the rest of the film was solid.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Again haven't seen one. And I've said before the bomber scene was badly done, but even then the rest of the film was solid.

See, you say you're not insulting anyone, but you're also insisting you've never seen a criticism of TLJ that isn't motivated by bigotry. That means either you've never read any of the discussions on the subject on this forum or you're saying the people on this forum who've criticised TLJ are motivated by bigotry. Which, you know, sounds pretty much like you're insulting folk.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Again haven't seen one. And I've said before the bomber scene was badly done, but even then the rest of the film was solid.

Those are the least offensive elements. The movie is not even built like a movie of its genre. Other defined it properly "a comedy of errors". It also fails to inspire, and is conflicting in its themes. The whole core of TLJ is rotten.

Whether someone likes a thing is not really a matter of debate.

Arguing that people can only dislike something for a certain reason, especially if that reason discredits them, is an obvious sham.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Again haven't seen one. And I've said before the bomber scene was badly done, but even then the rest of the film was solid.

Have you read this thread? I posted my criticism like two pages back and it has nothing to do with any female characters. The Last Jedi fundamentally altered how space battles work in the Star Wars universe and ruins them(all space battles in the past and future) for me. Also, if Admiral Holdo had done her suicide run at the beginning of the movie it would have saved a lot more lives. It's bad writing to stretch the movie out with that dumb chase mechanic. And it's still a better and more enjoyable movie than the Phantom Menace.

There? Any incel there?