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 insaniak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

who directs the LEGO movies/series - they should get them to do the next live action film

They already got them to do one - Solo. It was turning into a dumpster fire, so they were fired and replaced with Ron Howard.

In the opinion of the dumpster fire with her hand on the wheel.

 insaniak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

who directs the LEGO movies/series - they should get them to do the next live action film

They already got them to do one - Solo. It was turning into a dumpster fire, so they were fired and replaced with Ron Howard.

Which sucks since they then went on to make "Into the Spiderverse", which even I'll admit is probably the best Spider-man film ever made, and won an Oscar.

So I guess well never know if Disney was wrong to dump them from the project or not.

 gorgon wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.

This is satire, right?

That depends...cause the ewoks did actually beat the imperial troops. Not without great loss though...it saddens me to see dying care bears. Right in the feels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

who directs the LEGO movies/series - they should get them to do the next live action film

They already got them to do one - Solo. It was turning into a dumpster fire, so they were fired and replaced with Ron Howard.

Solo also gets a lot of unjust hate. The film was enjoyable. Had a starwars feel. It just didn't go as deep as some people wanted. It felt more like a series episode than the documentary of solos life. I liked it though. I got everything out of it I expected from a starwars sidefilm. Ill tell you who they need to get to make the next film though. That team that did that sick darthmaul fan film. Just hire those guys/girls. Pay a professional director and film crew to get the job done. That would be epic.

 gorgon wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.

This is satire, right?

Not at all.

Yes I know what your going to say as I've heard it 1000 times before. "They were the Empires Elite troops!!!"

Seriously? It isn't a video game. "Elite" soldiers do not have a better stat blocks that are super-dee-dooper better than other people. They have training that allows them to drill in automated responses to certain situations and physical conditioning to keep moving and stay alive.

Ewoks popped up, let lose some arrows and then faded into the woods.
The Storm Trooper chased after them....into traps the Ewoks had already setup for them.
Why did the Ewoks only do this now? I can easily imagine the young warriors of the tribe wanted to attack "the strange white clad demons" who had invaded their home and built those strange stone and Iron buildings. No doubt several members of the tribe had been gunned down for fun by Empire scout troops.

The Young warriors wanted to fight
The elders told them to wait...wait for a sign from the gods.
and then a Golden God appears with strange companions, similar in height and stature as those white clad devils who kill for sport.
They ask where the stone and Iron building are...they find out they are going to make war on the invaders that have so harmed the Ewok tribe and invaded their home.
With that the Elders have their sign from the heavens, and all the preparations they allowed the young warriors to ready as they awaited the sign from the gods to arrive

and the Ewoks went to war.

How does that not make sense?

Now I just feel it necessary to point out that the only attempt to derail this thread and all the negative vibes man, seem to be coming from the 3 people who like the dead weight from the middle of the new trilogy.

Seriously even ignoring that it was a Star Wars movie TLJ is a terrible movie. Starting from bollocks like not understanding gravity or space, to spending a huge chunk of a dull movie chasing a mcguffin in a number of dull scenes annnnndd you know what i’m not going to bother going through the very long list of things that make the movie gak before you even get to the Star Wars stuff. But a short list includes the pacing,script,casting,directing and editing.

I will also say that given all the stick jar-jar got including accusations of racism, that given this movie effectively turns Finn into a human Jar-Jar binks it gets away lightly.

As for Star Wars related issues that basically comes down to it seeming like it was made by someone who had never seen or read a Star Wars movie or book and who actually hated Star Wars.

I mean when your multi million dollar movie trilogy is worse than your Saturday morning cartoon show and Lego Star Wars you should probably rethink your strategy.

Yes, but I really don't care about the current film trilogy at this point. Super manipulator Palpatine screwing everyone from beyond the grave killed all interest I had in the next film, so I'm just waiting to see what other Story film comes out next, or what the next trilogy will be like and if it interests me.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

who directs the LEGO movies/series - they should get them to do the next live action film

They already got them to do one - Solo. It was turning into a dumpster fire, so they were fired and replaced with Ron Howard.

Which sucks since they then went on to make "Into the Spiderverse", which even I'll admit is probably the best Spider-man film ever made, and won an Oscar.

So I guess well never know if Disney was wrong to dump them from the project or not.

They were wrong it’s fairly obvious TBH


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.

This is satire, right?

Not at all.

Yes I know what your going to say as I've heard it 1000 times before. "They were the Empires Elite troops!!!"

Seriously? It isn't a video game. "Elite" soldiers do not have a better stat blocks that are super-dee-dooper better than other people. They have training that allows them to drill in automated responses to certain situations and physical conditioning to keep moving and stay alive.

Ewoks popped up, let lose some arrows and then faded into the woods.
The Storm Trooper chased after them....into traps the Ewoks had already setup for them.
Why did the Ewoks only do this now? I can easily imagine the young warriors of the tribe wanted to attack "the strange white clad demons" who had invaded their home and built those strange stone and Iron buildings. No doubt several members of the tribe had been gunned down for fun by Empire scout troops.

The Young warriors wanted to fight
The elders told them to wait...wait for a sign from the gods.
and then a Golden God appears with strange companions, similar in height and stature as those white clad devils who kill for sport.
They ask where the stone and Iron building are...they find out they are going to make war on the invaders that have so harmed the Ewok tribe and invaded their home.
With that the Elders have their sign from the heavens, and all the preparations they allowed the young warriors to ready as they awaited the sign from the gods to arrive

and the Ewoks went to war.

How does that not make sense?

Yeah I mean it’s not like a poorly equipped force defending there home territory from a highly trained and well equipped army has ever gone poorly for the aggressor has it

 Xenomancers wrote:
Solo also gets a lot of unjust hate. The film was enjoyable. Had a starwars feel. It just didn't go as deep as some people wanted. It felt more like a series episode than the documentary of solos life. I liked it though. I got everything out of it I expected from a starwars sidefilm..

Absolutely - I enjoyed it far more than I expected to, and I wouldn't hate it if they chose to still do movies 2 and 3, as unlikely as that seems at this point. The end product, though, was Ron Howard's toning down, as Miller and Lord supposedly went too far over the top with trying to make Solo a funny character.

It suffered more from all the bad press around the production issues, blowback from TLJ, and then a chronic lack of promotion than from issues with the movie itself.

Well, to answer the question in the title of the topic- of course someone still does. Not me, though. Maybe it’s for the best, that the “hype” for Star Wars is somewhat dying out- maybe Marvel/superhero fatigue will be born one day as well. Those will be the days!
We might even stop getting Disney 3D reimaginings of classic cartoons.. and finally something fresh, new and inspiring will be on the big screen once again.

It's a fine movie. My main issue with it is that its going out of its way to drop in every offhand reference is possibly can into a single crazy adventure and constantly gets caught up name dropping obscure details no one really cares about. It reminds me of the Edward Norton Hulk movie, where it feels like the story keeps pausing to make sure the audience caught the reference. It's far from a bad film, but its the kind of pandering deep lore obsessed nonsense I felt the old EU eventually took way too far.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:


Empire Strikes Back is not the best film. It is a movie about people flying away from things for 2 hours....there, I said it! Nothing happens in that film. It is a VERY good movie for a film where nothing happens, props to the director, but I stand by that statement.

Hrm, I would disagree with that characterization.

Empire is where Luke is forged into a Jedi. He goes from lucky plucky kid in the first flick, is put through hell in Empire, and emerges complete in RotJ. Han and Leia's relationship begins, Han's backstory is fleshed out, Vader's place is revealed, etc. They fight Wompas, Stormtroopers, Vader, Space Worms, their own fears, ATAT's, etc.

Lots of stuff happens in that flick, including a ton of the character development. It's the story of how Luke becomes a Jedi.

Whatever else one may feel about Star Wars as a franchise, Empire absolutely is not just people running away for 2 hours.

The very first scene of that film is a Probe Droid flying away from a Star Destroyer.
The very last scene of the film is the rebel fleet flying off into the distance (after watching the Millenium Falcon fly away from the Rebel fleet as well.
Everything in the middle of the movie is people flying away from stuff, whether that be more Star Destroyers, Tie Fighters, Giant space Monsters, Star Destroyers again etc...

By the same token, so is basically the entire first movie. It starts trying to run from a Star Destroyer, then they run away from Vader, then they run away from Tusken Raiders, then its sneaking away from Stormtroopers into space, then they get chased by TIE fighters, they have to run away from the Death Star and escape, then after destroying the Death Star they end up running away to a new base by the next flick

Now I do not say this to disparage the film or anything like that. As I said, I like love Star wars and will watch it over and over and never be bored. The reason I say this critique is that those gatekeeping Star Wars fans who like to dump on all things Star Wars always have the same refrain. "Really the only good Star wars movie is the Empire Strikes back. Everything else is either kiddy or not well made." (aka the prequels).

So I always like to highlight the fact ESB is not the godly movie they seem to think. Much like how Randall gave his little rant in Clerks 2 about how the Lord of the Rings movies are just a series of films of people walking for 3 hours. ESB is just a film of people flying away from stuff for 2 hours.

I mean, only in as much as the others are. They have several notable confrontations, often intentional, and numerous characters changing their plans to come actively help others, it's not just them running away all the time. There are fair criticisms of it and its place, but I dont think that particular critique is quite accurate. They do run away, its the Empire's turn to strike back after all, but they do other stuff as well.

And don't get me started on peoples opinions of Return of The Jedi. I'll admit that it is by far my favorite Star wars film, so I am 100% biased when I say this, but I will defend that film to the death. Especially as I find the majority of the critiques lazy and overly hung up on the Ewoks.

Barring the Ewoks, I dont have much of a beef with ROTJ, and even the ewoks don't ruin the flick for me.

Seriously, do you honestly believe that a native population, with superior tactical knowledge of the terrain, with pre-planned ambushes and hit and run guerrilla tactics, superior camouflage and inspired by the presence of C3PO a Golden God couldn't defeat the Empire troops? Come one, they were outclassed from the start.

Had they been Wookies it would have been far more believable.

Three foot tall dudes with spears that wouldn't penetrate my HEMA gambeson is...harder to sustain that suspension of disbelief.

Putting things in context, the Imperial forces on Endor were some of the best Imperial troops according to the Emperor, with armored support, automatic weapons, complete air and space supremacy, orbital surveillance, engaged around an installation they built with significant infrastructure. The ewoks, as portrayed, defeating that sort of force is difficult to take seriously.

Maybe defeating a small scout party? Ok, that's buyable. Knocking off random scout troopers on speeders? Sure.

But an entire legion with an intact command and communications to space? In what amounts to a pitched battle after the Imperial forces sprang their own carefully planned ambush? Not so much. Much like today I wouldnt buy a story about spear wielding dwarfs defeating a US marine expeditionary force with a carrier battlegroup sitting off shore.

That said, it doesn't ruint ROTJ for me, I'm still a big fan of that movie as a whole, I had the ewok village playset as a kid, and I don't go around making a huge deal of it, but I think it's a perfectly fair criticize the ewoks.

Overall, I think there is also an element of time and place, in the early 80's, that sort of thing just worked better than it does now, same way half of Doctor Who was amazing in the 60's or 70s but now often looks like total garbage because the medium has evolved so much and tastes have changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Solo also gets a lot of unjust hate. The film was enjoyable. Had a starwars feel. It just didn't go as deep as some people wanted. It felt more like a series episode than the documentary of solos life. I liked it though. I got everything out of it I expected from a starwars sidefilm. Ill tell you who they need to get to make the next film though. That team that did that sick darthmaul fan film. Just hire those guys/girls. Pay a professional director and film crew to get the job done. That would be epic.

For me the problem with Solo is that they basically try to stuff literally every event of importance on his life into one adventure over a couple of weeks, and all at a scale that would appear to match his later (ostensibly greater) adventures, and it all happens with a character that looks significantly younger than his ANH incarnation but takes place almost immediately beforehand (and with seemingly little time for his reputatiin to get around).

Were it taken on its own, without connection to a larger story, I wouldn't have any problems with the movie, and on its own its pretty solid, but its the connection to the larger story that puts it out of place for me.

 Vaktathi wrote:
... and it all happens with a character that looks significantly younger than his ANH incarnation but takes place almost immediately beforehand (and with seemingly little time for his reputatiin to get around)..

There are 10 years between the end of Solo and the start of ANH. They had to leave time for the other two movies they had originally planned...

 insaniak wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
... and it all happens with a character that looks significantly younger than his ANH incarnation but takes place almost immediately beforehand (and with seemingly little time for his reputatiin to get around)..

There are 10 years between the end of Solo and the start of ANH. They had to leave time for the other two movies they had originally planned...

its been a bit since I saw the flick, but didn't they immediately fly off to Tatooine to start working for Jabba? I was under the impression that was relatively close to ANH, or did every major event in Han's life before ANH happen in a couple crazy weeks as a teenager?

I could be wrong but that was my impression

They were heading to Tatoinne to start working for Jabba, yes. By ANH, they had been working for Jabba for some time. Presumably about 10 years.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Three foot tall dudes with spears that wouldn't penetrate my HEMA gambeson is...harder to sustain that suspension of disbelief.

Putting things in context, the Imperial forces on Endor were some of the best Imperial troops according to the Emperor, with armored support, automatic weapons, complete air and space supremacy, orbital surveillance, engaged around an installation they built with significant infrastructure. The ewoks, as portrayed, defeating that sort of force is difficult to take seriously.

Maybe defeating a small scout party? Ok, that's buyable. Knocking off random scout troopers on speeders? Sure.

But an entire legion with an intact command and communications to space? In what amounts to a pitched battle after the Imperial forces sprang their own carefully planned ambush? Not so much. Much like today I wouldnt buy a story about spear wielding dwarfs defeating a US marine expeditionary force with a carrier battlegroup sitting off shore.

That said, it doesn't ruint ROTJ for me, I'm still a big fan of that movie as a whole, I had the ewok village playset as a kid, and I don't go around making a huge deal of it, but I think it's a perfectly fair criticize the ewoks.

Overall, I think there is also an element of time and place, in the early 80's, that sort of thing just worked better than it does now, same way half of Doctor Who was amazing in the 60's or 70s but now often looks like total garbage because the medium has evolved so much and tastes have changed.

Again, your falling into the trap that "Dumb care Bears Suck."

a Chimpanzee is 3 feet tall but Twice as strong as a Human. Ewoks are Aliens on an an alien world. They are communal species who hunt much like early humans. They are not "3 foot care bears" they are the Apex predator on Endor. What they lack in physical prowess or height they make up for by being an intelligent species. Too just to dismiss that is silly.

The Imperial Forces setup an ambush. They new the Rebels were coming and were only expecting a small infiltration team. Yeah, a Legion of the Emperors finest were on the planet but they were not ALL at the back entrance. You saw how many there were when Han and the other rebel commandos were led out with their hands over their head. That was all that was there, not 8000 odd Imperial soldiers that makes up a Galactic Empire Legion. There were what? 3 maybe 4 Platoons actually at that battle.

The only ground support they had were AT-ST's (and I guess the speeders too) and they were definitely not made for that terrain. The troops were over confident because they only expected 12 guys. When The Ewoks attacked they were thrown for a loop, but hey it's only the locals right? Bows and arrows against armored troops so they take off after the Ewoks as they fade into the forest. Are the Imperials engaging in combat on their terms? No, they are headed into traps. The platoons were split up, isolated, and individually overwhelmed by superior numbers.

Air support? Not when there is a massive Star Ship battle happening in orbit there isn't. Even if there was how are they going to hit anything without taking out their own scattered troops?
Communications? When earlier in the film we see the Rebels having trouble getting in touch with Leia after they were separated and R2D2 not able to do it either because of the denseness of the trees blocking communication.

So we have:
No Air Support
Limited to no Armour support due to the Terrain
Lack of unit Cohesion due to the Hit and Run Tactics
Loss of Communication due to Alien terrain

VS

Better Knowledge of the surrounding terrain
Prepared defenses and Ambush Points
Local numerical superiority
Higher Moral due to believing they were fighting to assist a Golden God

This is no different then the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana
The Imperial Troops were Outclassed by the Ewoks from the start

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Three foot tall dudes with spears that wouldn't penetrate my HEMA gambeson is...harder to sustain that suspension of disbelief.

Putting things in context, the Imperial forces on Endor were some of the best Imperial troops according to the Emperor, with armored support, automatic weapons, complete air and space supremacy, orbital surveillance, engaged around an installation they built with significant infrastructure. The ewoks, as portrayed, defeating that sort of force is difficult to take seriously.

Maybe defeating a small scout party? Ok, that's buyable. Knocking off random scout troopers on speeders? Sure.

But an entire legion with an intact command and communications to space? In what amounts to a pitched battle after the Imperial forces sprang their own carefully planned ambush? Not so much. Much like today I wouldnt buy a story about spear wielding dwarfs defeating a US marine expeditionary force with a carrier battlegroup sitting off shore.

That said, it doesn't ruint ROTJ for me, I'm still a big fan of that movie as a whole, I had the ewok village playset as a kid, and I don't go around making a huge deal of it, but I think it's a perfectly fair criticize the ewoks.

Overall, I think there is also an element of time and place, in the early 80's, that sort of thing just worked better than it does now, same way half of Doctor Who was amazing in the 60's or 70s but now often looks like total garbage because the medium has evolved so much and tastes have changed.

Again, your falling into the trap that "Dumb care Bears Suck."

Because that's how they appear and are portrayed mostly within the film.

That said, I didn't call them "care bears" at any point, I called attention to physical differences and armament issues, these are not the same thing.

a Chimpanzee is 3 feet tall but Twice as strong as a Human.

And they're an endangered species numbering a few thousand because simply coexisting with humans is killing them, much less engaging in active combat with humans.

Ewoks are Aliens on an an alien world. They are communal species who hunt much like early humans. They are not "3 foot care bears" they are the Apex predator on Endor. What they lack in physical prowess or height they make up for by being an intelligent species. Too just to dismiss that is silly.

They might be the apex predator on Endor. That doesn't mean much in and of itself, invasive species effortlessly displace such with regularity these days. They can be intelligent and cunning and brutal, but that only goes so far. Humans aren't exactly stupid either.

I'm not trying to dismiss the Ewoks outright, but by any comparison to any event in reality, there's not much basis for their victory there. Even within the same species, such as with humans, tech and logistics can be absolutely insurmountable advantages.

One can look to places like Afghanistan, where people often live lives unchanged from hundreds of years ago an intimately know the land, sometimes armed with ancient jezzails or modern assault riflles, yet any time battle is really joined woth foreign military unita there's no contest. Casualties may be inflicted, but no guerilla force there is defeating entire platoons or companies of western military forces.

The Imperial Forces setup an ambush. They new the Rebels were coming and were only expecting a small infiltration team. Yeah, a Legion of the Emperors finest were on the planet but they were not ALL at the back entrance. You saw how many there were when Han and the other rebel commandos were led out with their hands over their head. That was all that was there, not 8000 odd Imperial soldiers that makes up a Galactic Empire Legion. There were what? 3 maybe 4 Platoons actually at that battle.

Even if we accept that, it's a company or two with armor support, radio communications, no barriers to reinforcement arrival from elsewhere on the planet, access to air transport, orbital surveillance, etc.

Likewise, thos other troops arent *that* far, they have Speeders, shuttles, other walkers, etc that could respond likely within minutes, particularly when everyone should already be on alert and active combat operations are in progress both on the ground and in orbit.

A village of ewoks should pose no problem to such a force. Its not like the Ewoks were a particularly numerous people either.

The only ground support they had were AT-ST's (and I guess the speeders too) and they were definitely not made for that terrain.

The All Terrain part of ATST must have been a misnomer

More to the point, a couple of logs arent gonna implode an armored vehicle today, much less a highly advanced futuristic one.

The speeders seemed to work fine most of the time (and half the gimmicks used to take them out either relied on the pilots engagin in stupid behavior or incredible luck), and the ewoks otherwise largely seemed to fear them.

The troops were over confident because they only expected 12 guys. When The Ewoks attacked they were thrown for a loop, but hey it's only the locals right? Bows and arrows against armored troops so they take off after the Ewoks as they fade into the forest. Are the Imperials engaging in combat on their terms? No, they are headed into traps. The platoons were split up, isolated, and individually overwhelmed by superior numbers.

Most of which was monstrously unconvincing (part of why people have problems with the segment), and which doesn't make sense in the context of troops with weapons largely akin to those of modern assault rifles and a modicum of discipline and communications capability. This basically relies on the Imperial forces having the discipline and command ability of total idiots and superior firepower counting for almost nothing.

Air support? Not when there is a massive Star Ship battle happening in orbit there isn't.

This assumes that no assets in orbit can support the planet and that literally everything is engaging the rebel fleet (which makes no sense in any military operation) and that no such assets are already on the planet.

To look to a modern example, a carrier battle group can engage in both fleet actions and ground support operations simultaneously, I see no reason why a fleet of star destroyers and a death star with overwhelming naval superiority could not.

Even if there was how are they going to hit anything without taking out their own scattered troops?

Modern military forces with a fraction of the technology manage this, or can at least reform their forces to enable it in short order.

Communications? When earlier in the film we see the Rebels having trouble getting in touch with Leia after they were separated and R2D2 not able to do it either because of the denseness of the trees blocking communication.

what afflicts a small commando team behind enemy lines in unfamiliar territory, and what afflicts a major military installation with thousands of troops on the ground in an invested area and multiple armored vehicles and orbital communications are very different things.

So we have:
No Air Support
Limited to no Armour support due to the Terrain
Lack of unit Cohesion due to the Hit and Run Tactics
Loss of Communication due to Alien terrain

VS

Better Knowledge of the surrounding terrain
Prepared defenses and Ambush Points
Local numerical superiority
Higher Moral due to believing they were fighting to assist a Golden God

This is no different then the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana
The Imperial Troops were Outclassed by the Ewoks from the start

Overall, while individual points may be arguable, there are far too many that require far too many exceptions to be convincing. There's just way too much that only works if you accept a ludicrous level of negligence and incompetence on the part of the Imperial forces.

Had it been giant wookies with energy weapon bowcasters, a lot of these issues disappear, enough at least to sustain the suspension of disbelief.

All of which seems to be somewhat veering off topic...

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

No Air Support
Limited to no Armour support due to the Terrain
Lack of unit Cohesion due to the Hit and Run Tactics
Loss of Communication due to Alien terrain

VS

Better Knowledge of the surrounding terrain
Prepared defenses and Ambush Points
Local numerical superiority
Higher Moral due to believing they were fighting to assist a Golden God

This is no different then the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana
The Imperial Troops were Outclassed by the Ewoks from the start

Yeah, no. All of that is wrong.
Lack of air support was a director/writer's choice thing. The Empire has Tie Bombers, and they were in the previous film. They just weren't used, and would have been pretty useless in the space battle. Pull back to the doors, firebomb the trees they don't in any way care about and call it a day.
They had armor (AT-STs and AT-ATs nearby). It was just magically vulnerable to wood and small rocks, and in the latter case, not deployed.
They weren't doing much hit and run. They somehow built placed traps out of wood and logs AND had catapults nearby (which are useless in hit and run) all of which were many times their own size, all set up in the next clearing over without detection.
Lost communication is assumption. They were fighting outside their own base, and had no problems signalling for troops to deploy and for reinforcements to hunt the rebels down. The rebels were using radio(ish) backpacks that could have easily been blocked by terrain. The Imps were merely yards outside their base and had ships in orbit to relay signals.

Local terrain knowledge- again they were outside their own door of their significantly large base, that had been there long enough to support a moon sized orbital structure. The idea that with dedicated scout units, the adjacent terrain is unfamiliar is flatly absurd.
Prepared defenses and ambush points, which... begs the question of how. All the Empire had to do was defend a bunker door. And why they didn't have their own prepared defenses and ambush points, what with the several patrols and walls to put turrets on.
Local numeric superiority- nonsense. However many stone age hunter-gatherers there were, they didn't match the numbers of "an entire legion" (of crack troops with a huge tech advantage)
'Higher morale' would have been easily countered by fear of machines and boom sticks. Especially since they showed they Ewoks getting dismayed and broken several times.

There are always those people who root for the bad guys in the starwars universe. That is fine. Don't let that fandom sway you away from the logic of indigenous people winning a battle via guerrilla tactics. It actually advantage ewoks in this scenario.

Anyways I guess the answer is I do still care about starwars...I am just not interested in the new story arc.

lmao, star wars is dead. they need to proclaim exterminatus on that now disease ridden medium. *cries* Don't look at me!

 LordofHats wrote:
Yes, but I really don't care about the current film trilogy at this point. Super manipulator Palpatine screwing everyone from beyond the grave killed all interest I had in the next film,

That actually is one of the few elements that interest me. That and the irony of the 'kill the past, no legacy, blah blah blah', And the new film is basically: No, shut up, it actually is All About the Skywalkers. That's freaking hilarious.

Voss wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

No Air Support
Limited to no Armour support due to the Terrain
Lack of unit Cohesion due to the Hit and Run Tactics
Loss of Communication due to Alien terrain

VS

Better Knowledge of the surrounding terrain
Prepared defenses and Ambush Points
Local numerical superiority
Higher Moral due to believing they were fighting to assist a Golden God

This is no different then the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana
The Imperial Troops were Outclassed by the Ewoks from the start

Yeah, no. All of that is wrong.
Lack of air support was a director/writer's choice thing. The Empire has Tie Bombers, and they were in the previous film. They just weren't used, and would have been pretty useless in the space battle.
They had armor (AT-STs and AT-ATs nearby). It was just magically vulnerable to wood and small rocks, and in the latter case, not deployed.
They weren't doing much hit and run. They somehow built placed traps out of wood and logs AND had catapults nearby (which are useless in hit and run) all of which were many times their own size, all set up in the next clearing over without detection.
Lost communication is assumption. They were fighting outside their own base, and had no problems signalling for troops to deploy and for reinforcements to hunt the rebels down. The rebels were using radio(ish) backpacks that could have easily been blocked by terrain. The Imps were merely yards outside their base and had ships in orbit to relay signals.

Local terrain knowledge- again they were outside their own door of their significantly large base, that had been there long enough to support a moon sized orbital structure. The idea that with dedicated scout units, the adjacent terrain is unfamiliar is flatly absurd.
Prepared defenses and ambush points, which... begs the question of how. All the Empire had to do was defend a bunker door. And why they didn't have their own prepared defenses and ambush points, what with the several patrols and walls to put turrets on.
Local numeric superiority- nonsense. However many stone age hunter-gatherers there were, they didn't match the numbers of "an entire legion" (of crack troops with a huge tech advantage)
'Higher morale' would have been easily countered by fear of machines and boom sticks. Especially since they showed they Ewoks getting dismayed and broken several times.

It was looking pretty bad for the ewoks until Han and chewy Commandeered an atst. They basically broke them with that. Terrain was not feasible to deploy ATAT and this all probably happened in a matter of minutes. Not enough time to call air support. Plus it wouldn't have made a difference in a wooded area. They wouldn't have had targets. The emperor was overconfident in the film. He allowed luke to reach the planet(moon) so he could be brought in by Vader because he wanted a new apprentice. Its kind of the theme of the movie. Overconfidence can be your undoing.

For the current Trilogy of Star Wars movies yeah it's too late. Are the side stories going to be any decent if any are made? Yeah i think some will. I still like Rogue One despite some disliking it. I'm actually surprised by that. I mean it actually told us how they got the Death Star plans and Jedi or Sith aren't the main focus. Rogue One is about the only movie that redeemed my hope in the new Star Wars movies before Last Jedi crushed it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
For the current Trilogy of Star Wars movies yeah it's too late. Are the side stories going to be any decent if any are made? Yeah i think some will. I still like Rogue One despite some disliking it. I'm actually surprised by that. I mean it actually told us how they got the Death Star plans and Jedi or Sith aren't the main focus. Rogue One is about the only movie that redeemed my hope in the new Star Wars movies before Last Jedi crushed it.

Rouge one is a fantastic movie. One of the best SW films IMO.

Meh, I enjoyed TFA. Despite its obvious flaws, it was fun.
I enjoyed TLJ. Again, it's not perfect, but it was fun, and I could watch Mark Hamill being cranky old man Luke forever.
And yes, I'm looking forward to the Rise of Skywalker, because I'm really curious to see where they go with it, and because it's likely to be fun, even if it turns out to be as full of holes as TFA.

I also enjoyed the hell out of Solo and Rogue One, and am looking forward to the Mandalorian.


Mind you, some of my current enthusiasm for Star Wars is fueled by having a daughter who's just starting to be interested as well... She's not ready for the movies yet, but we're enjoying starting out exploring the galaxy.

'dat Vader scene in Rogue One..the whole movie was worth it just for that.

*That's* a proper villain.

 Vaktathi wrote:
'dat Vader scene in Rogue One..the whole movie was worth it just for that.

*That's* a proper villain.

Agreed. The soldiers look confused at first about who he is and what they're fighting like some unknown. Then it quickly turns to horror like darth vader is some horror movie villain. The rebels know they're screwed and just hand off the plans to the guys outside looking desperate the whole time. They know they can't get away and will die but know what they must do.

Do I still care about Star Wars? Yes.

Do I care about Disney Wars? No. The Mouse murdered my desire for more Star Wars quite thoroughly. I'll stick with the OT and be just fine.

Starwars has always been dumb. often dumb fun but dumb all the same. Il watch the next dumb fun entry like I watched the previous ones. Except the prequels were not fun. They were just terrible and dumb.

Ok, this may end up being a long post, as I have a thought I want to unpack.

I think the real problem with Star Wars doesn’t start with the current films, it goes right back to the original trilogy; they’ve never satisfactorily shown why the Empire is bad. Other than the Death Star, which few people in the galaxy ever knew about, the original films, the prequels and TFA rely on just using general Nazi symbology (jack boots, stormtroopers, etc.) to point at the Empire and go “these are bad guys, boo now”.

Right at the start, Luke says he hates the empire, of course he does, but why? Did they kill his friends? Take his land? Suppress his religion? The film and all subsequent sequels never explain. The prequels have the “overthrowing democracy” thread, but it’s clumsy and, again, doesn’t show the bad things that the Empire is doing, other than the terrible, terrible, Order 66 montage.

Rogue One is the first time we see them occupying a planet, oppressing people and generally earning the right to be hated. TLJ follows it up with the casino section, but that seems very tacked on, tangential to the main plot (and fundamentally a bit too pointedly related to current, real world politics).

And that’s a real problem with the current films, because the Rebellion won. The end of RotJ, particularly in the special editions, is very explicit that the when the Rebellion destroyed the Death Star and killed the Emperor, the people rose up and overthrew the whole Empire, with the implication of return to the Republic. So where is the New Republic? Why are Leia and the gang running round as the Resistance, even more poorly equipped than when they were fighting the Empire? Where did the First Order come from? These issues undermine all of the new films, because no matter what shiny cool stuff you slap on screen, it’s undermined by a massive narrative hole underneath.

That’s why, despite the fact I generally enjoyed both TFA and TLJ (with a few specific technical gripes in both, that I won’t go into here), I don’t really care about Star Wars at the moment, because it doesn’t really mean anything at the moment.

They could fix this by adding that darker edge and more plausible plot objectives, as per Rogue One, but I fear that they’ve missed the boat. The prequels should have dedicated probably an entire film to Darth Vader hunting down the Jedi, rather than a few minutes of Deus Ex Machina. Somewhere we should have seen/heard about Tarkin landing a Victory star destroyer on top of a food riot. Etcetera, etc. These are the things that make the Empire a real, visceral, enemy and without that, you don’t really care about the fight to defeat them.