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A mate of mine runs a 1000 point SW battalion that's almost exclusively CC - plenty of wolf-mounted TH/SS and the obligatory Wulfen. I think his most powerful ranged weapon is a bolter... Now I run a pure Chaos Knights list, and at 1000 points I don't bring any TITANIC units at all. I'm also well down on CP as a result.

Initially, when we started playing it was quite close. Mainly because although reaper chain-cleaver War Dogs are good in CC, they're no match for a squad of TH/SS Wulfen or a smash captain equivalent on a wolf. Since those early games though I've adopted a strategy of manoeuvring to allow me to keep shooting (autocannon and thermal spear) to soften them up before CC. And it works. In fact in the last Maelstrom game I think the result was 12VP to 3VP in my favour.

So, question: are Chaos Knights (even non-TITANIC ones) OP, or is it unreasonable to expect a SW army with no ranged weapons other than bolters to be competitive?

If someone is running an all-melee army...that's on them to make it work. If you charge across a field at huge war machines with guns...that's their fault.

A bit of both. It's unreasonable to expect a skew army of all vehicles to provide a balanced game experience when other armies are required to take non-AT weapons to build a legal army list, and it's unreasonable to expect melee Space Marines, even Space Wolves, to carry a game by themselves.

Space Wolves are pretty weak at the moment. Pure melee space wolves are wolf poop. Mini Knights, on the other hand, are fine, not OP, but not weak.

I think the biggest problem you'll run into is the fact that space wolves are HEAVILY invuln-reliant, and HEAVILY reliant on multiwound elite models with 2 or 3 wounds, and one of the two unit types that Knights have access to in the sub-titanic range is a high-str, bad-AP, flat 3 damage weapon.

That thing is going to carve up Thunderwolves, Wulfen, etc.

the_scotsman wrote:I think the biggest problem you'll run into is the fact that space wolves are HEAVILY invuln-reliant, and HEAVILY reliant on multiwound elite models with 2 or 3 wounds, and one of the two unit types that Knights have access to in the sub-titanic range is a high-str, bad-AP, flat 3 damage weapon.

That thing is going to carve up Thunderwolves, Wulfen, etc.

At 1000 points I run 2 War Dogs with autocannon and 4 War Dogs with thermal spear / reaper chain-cleaver. So I'm not spamming autocannon.

I do like playing mono-codex lists though - my other army is a pure Ultramarines list, but with that list I take a combination of AT and CC weapons.

It just sounds like he's doing the same thing over and over, while you've adapted your strategy to his.

If he changed it up, or tried a new list, he might see a change in the results as you have to adapt as well.

 Elbows wrote:
If someone is running an all-melee army...that's on them to make it work. If you charge across a field at huge war machines with guns...that's their fault.

Gotta say though, this is a VERY Space wolf thing to do or just 40k in general!

but the Space Wolf player needs to invest in some covering fire!

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If someone is running an all-melee army...that's on them to make it work. If you charge across a field at huge war machines with guns...that's their fault.

Gotta say though, this is a VERY Space wolf thing to do or just 40k in general!

but the Space Wolf player needs to invest in some covering fire!

the space wolf has bolt pistols.. arte you saying that and their innate courage isn't eneugh for the Sons of Russ?

Some might call that HERESY!

A melee army needs board presence or speed (to either catch their opponent or hold objectives and for their opponent to come to them). Sounds like his force has neither. Armiger/war dogs are a very fast army.

I'll suggest swapping out the Thunderwolf Cavalry for some Long Fangs with lascannons, and also adding a Stormwolf for use in 1500 point games when my list will include a Knight Despoiler.