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 bullyboy wrote:
One of the biggest problems is Guilleman. He skews so much of marine stuff that it's pointed in such a way to be mostly useless in other chapters. I just don't think GW can see this.

He needs to just only provide the LT buff. Bastard keeps breaking every fething marine release.

I really liked this unit, but at 31 points more it's not worth it. Up on the shelf it goes and back to normal Repulsors.

 bullyboy wrote:
One of the biggest problems is Guilleman. He skews so much of marine stuff that it's pointed in such a way to be mostly useless in other chapters. I just don't think GW can see this.

More or less I feel this is a myth. Gman has his own cost and isn't influencing anything in terms of cost on other models - those models are just overcosted on their own merits because GW sucks. Just look at this nerf to the executioner. It was obviously overcosted already. Indisputably so. If he is affecting other units that is a poor balancing decision realistically he is overcosted at 400 points and is more than covering the cost of his aura at the 2000 points level. At some point at like 3000 points plus he is extremely OP but the game is really meant to be played at 2000. At 2000 hes 1/5 of your army. However - fine with me. Redesign his rules and reduce the cost of all marine units. I'm more than happy to run Calgar and a lt if it didn't suck so hard. Basically the only way I can compete is to reroll wounds on buckets of dice right now. My army dies so fast I have to keep up the lethality.

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Well, there goes the brief moments of joy I felt when using two executioners at 2K games.

Even though target saturation is key to using high value unit, the points increase makes bringing even a single executioner a daunting challenge.
Let alone using two or more in the 2K list.

I might be biased, but it seems GW is strangely cautious about giving Space Marines anything that isn't complete garbage.

Fixed that for you.

Actually what probably happened is all the Primaris-only players ran out to buy two of the things because Primaris have [censored] for anti-armor and GW went "woah; look at those sales numbers, we must have under-priced this thing".

The Newman wrote:

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Well, there goes the brief moments of joy I felt when using two executioners at 2K games.

Even though target saturation is key to using high value unit, the points increase makes bringing even a single executioner a daunting challenge.
Let alone using two or more in the 2K list.

I might be biased, but it seems GW is strangely cautious about giving Space Marines anything that isn't complete garbage.

Fixed that for you.

Actually what probably happened is all the Primaris-only players ran out to buy two of the things because Primaris have [censored] for anti-armor and GW went "woah; look at those sales numbers, we must have under-priced this thing".

They made a flying abrams tank...how are you not expecting to sell tons of these? I bought 2 on release thinking it was overcosted. Don't care. Flying abrams is cool.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Well, there goes the brief moments of joy I felt when using two executioners at 2K games.

Even though target saturation is key to using high value unit, the points increase makes bringing even a single executioner a daunting challenge.
Let alone using two or more in the 2K list.

I might be biased, but it seems GW is strangely cautious about giving Space Marines anything that isn't complete garbage.

Fixed that for you.

Actually what probably happened is all the Primaris-only players ran out to buy two of the things because Primaris have [censored] for anti-armor and GW went "woah; look at those sales numbers, we must have under-priced this thing".

They made a flying abrams tank...how are you not expecting to sell tons of these? I bought 2 on release thinking it was overcosted. Don't care. Flying abrams is cool.

It is literally a Repulsor with 50% more turret. It does look better, but not that much better that everyone calling it a Repulsive went out and bought two.

The Newman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Well, there goes the brief moments of joy I felt when using two executioners at 2K games.

Even though target saturation is key to using high value unit, the points increase makes bringing even a single executioner a daunting challenge.
Let alone using two or more in the 2K list.

I might be biased, but it seems GW is strangely cautious about giving Space Marines anything that isn't complete garbage.

Fixed that for you.

Actually what probably happened is all the Primaris-only players ran out to buy two of the things because Primaris have [censored] for anti-armor and GW went "woah; look at those sales numbers, we must have under-priced this thing".

They made a flying abrams tank...how are you not expecting to sell tons of these? I bought 2 on release thinking it was overcosted. Don't care. Flying abrams is cool.

It is literally a Repulsor with 50% more turret. It does look better, but not that much better that everyone calling it a Repulsive went out and bought two.

I did but I am the only one at my shop that has any.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Well, there goes the brief moments of joy I felt when using two executioners at 2K games.

Even though target saturation is key to using high value unit, the points increase makes bringing even a single executioner a daunting challenge.
Let alone using two or more in the 2K list.

I might be biased, but it seems GW is strangely cautious about giving Space Marines anything that isn't complete garbage.

Fixed that for you.

Actually what probably happened is all the Primaris-only players ran out to buy two of the things because Primaris have [censored] for anti-armor and GW went "woah; look at those sales numbers, we must have under-priced this thing".

They made a flying abrams tank...how are you not expecting to sell tons of these? I bought 2 on release thinking it was overcosted. Don't care. Flying abrams is cool.

Technically they made a flying Merkava, due to the amount of weapons it has on it, and the 6 Man carry capacity.

I bought two of them as well, but one was an impulse purchase.

I was looking forward to having 1-2 with my Deathwatch. Park a Watch Captain close by with Stormshield. If enemy has good AT, take Dominus Aegis for 5+ invuln on them. If not, Tome of Ectoclades for reroll 1s to wound vs whatever target (except transports) you wanted to kill. Seemed fairly flexible, but cost was prohibitive, even more so now.

I've not bought yet. Wanted to see what other goodies come out in the new marine dex.

Chances are I'll go from buying 2, to buying a regular repulsor and buying a third party turret to swap in and out.

I don't see any reason to get one at this point.

 Crimson wrote:
This and the new melee lieutenant without a real melee weapon has pretty drastically dampened my enthusiasm for the new marine codex. I really don't understand why GW is hell bent on making the marines utterly terrible.

What if they aren't? What if they're building the foundation of 9th edition, where a lot of this stuff will be the new powerful options due to massively drastic changes in game play?

No one ever mentions that as a possibility. But I'd say that 9th could axe a ton of the old wargear and re-balance the new.

The game has too many options as it is, over 60% of the weapons in the game aren't worth taking, so lets just get rid of them and re-balance along a smaller pool of items.

On the bright side GW saved me $200 because I won't buy two now. I must admit this is largely out of just spite because like REALLY? Nerfing marines? Seriously dude?

Spite is the secondary victory condition in every game.

 Togusa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This and the new melee lieutenant without a real melee weapon has pretty drastically dampened my enthusiasm for the new marine codex. I really don't understand why GW is hell bent on making the marines utterly terrible.

What if they aren't? What if they're building the foundation of 9th edition, where a lot of this stuff will be the new powerful options due to massively drastic changes in game play?

No one ever mentions that as a possibility. But I'd say that 9th could axe a ton of the old wargear and re-balance the new.

The game has too many options as it is, over 60% of the weapons in the game aren't worth taking, so lets just get rid of them and re-balance along a smaller pool of items.

Support 8th while it's active - don't abandon balancing in the game today because of an unannounced new edition.

We need to as a community stop sucking so hard. We need to stop buying their stuff if we want them to listen to us.

 Xenomancers wrote:
We need to as a community stop sucking so hard. We need to stop buying their stuff if we want them to listen to us.

Well, you're not wrong.

Let's start an email campaign!

If everyone emails saying the change was too much maybe they'll change it? I doubt it since that would set an example that the loudest voice will gets the attention

 Xenomancers wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
One of the biggest problems is Guilleman. He skews so much of marine stuff that it's pointed in such a way to be mostly useless in other chapters. I just don't think GW can see this.

More or less I feel this is a myth. Gman has his own cost and isn't influencing anything in terms of cost on other models - those models are just overcosted on their own merits because GW sucks. Just look at this nerf to the executioner. It was obviously overcosted already. Indisputably so. If he is affecting other units that is a poor balancing decision realistically he is overcosted at 400 points and is more than covering the cost of his aura at the 2000 points level. At some point at like 3000 points plus he is extremely OP but the game is really meant to be played at 2000. At 2000 hes 1/5 of your army. However - fine with me. Redesign his rules and reduce the cost of all marine units. I'm more than happy to run Calgar and a lt if it didn't suck so hard. Basically the only way I can compete is to reroll wounds on buckets of dice right now. My army dies so fast I have to keep up the lethality.

It is a myth.

A captain and lieutenant have been mathematically proven to be just as useful as Gman, but with more points for other crap.


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 Togusa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This and the new melee lieutenant without a real melee weapon has pretty drastically dampened my enthusiasm for the new marine codex. I really don't understand why GW is hell bent on making the marines utterly terrible.

What if they aren't? What if they're building the foundation of 9th edition, where a lot of this stuff will be the new powerful options due to massively drastic changes in game play?

No one ever mentions that as a possibility. But I'd say that 9th could axe a ton of the old wargear and re-balance the new.

The game has too many options as it is, over 60% of the weapons in the game aren't worth taking, so lets just get rid of them and re-balance along a smaller pool of items.

This thought process has come and gone through editions and it has largely never panned out.

Predators are more expensive than Rhinos for a reason. We may not like or agree with it, but there it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
We need to as a community stop sucking so hard. We need to stop buying their stuff if we want them to listen to us.

I'd wager that there are more people who don't give a gak about the point change for this model than those who do.

And really - you guys need to stop and think that it got double tap as well. You know that wasn't coming for free, right?

A Captain and Lieutenant cannot be mathematically as useful as rowboat since rerolling failed to-wounds is inherently better than rerolling 1s and rerolling misses is better than rerolling 1s (or getting three CPs is better than spending CPs for Master of the Chapter).

Is that and being beastly in melee worth 200+ more points? Got me there. Throw in losing the Ravenguard trait and strats to get the full use out of him and I'd say no.

The Newman, he is speaking on a point per point basis. A Cap and LT provide roughly 1/2 as much use, but cost far less than 1/2 of Gman's points.

I don't know a single player that doesn't care about the point costs of their models. Like literally no one I know is like - oh this model went up 30 points - I think I'll go buy it. New player old player? Don't matter. This nerf is a legit mistake that will only serve to cost them money and nerfs the weakest faction in the game short of GK. It's a joke. Someone needs to admit to their mistake and fix it. Now.

But we do exist. I don't remember the last kit I bought where points costs were a factor.

Bharring wrote:
But we do exist. I don't remember the last kit I bought where points costs were a factor.

Yet you always seem to have so much to add about the pointing of units. Be honest - you care a lot about how your army is costed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But we do exist. I don't remember the last kit I bought where points costs were a factor.

Yet you always seem to have so much to add about the pointing of units. Be honest - you care a lot about how your army is costed.

Honestly, yes I do. My Dire Avengers were overcosted at 17ppm. But my current Dire Avenger Exarchs are undercosted at 11ppm. But neither case changed my purchase choices.

Both those concerns are substantially less impactful on my collection than "Do I want these models".

Believe it or not, most people have more than one concern. Some concerns are even less important than others. People are capable of such things.

I reallocated my Repulsor dollars to Moraix weaponry already, but that was happening even pre-nerf.

So I understand some frustration, but there is some silver linings with this.

WHile it might not have been the best call, it shows GW is trying.

Also it shows that GW is more willing to drop out changes when warrented (or unwarrented) there has been times where they wouldn't do this.

My Spacemarine budget just got reduced to 0 till the SM dex comes out. Clearly too much volitility there to make me comfortable buying. But the other side of it, is the Chaos Dex changes and the Moriax and Cerastus changes give me some places to put those dollars.

I actually was going to buy this but now I'm not gonna bother and continue to wait for vanguard marines...

Reemule wrote:
The Newman, he is speaking on a point per point basis. A Cap and LT provide roughly 1/2 as much use, but cost far less than 1/2 of Gman's points.

That might have been what he meant, but it's definitely not what he said. He said they were just as good and left more points for other stuff, not that they're as good for the points and 200 points of other stuff balances it out overall.

And to be fair I didn't even disagree about whether g-man was worth the points over the Cap'n / Leiutenant combo.

Rerolling all failed wounds is huge.

The Newman wrote:
A Captain and Lieutenant cannot be mathematically as useful as rowboat since rerolling failed to-wounds is inherently better than rerolling 1s and rerolling misses is better than rerolling 1s (or getting three CPs is better than spending CPs for Master of the Chapter).

Is that and being beastly in melee worth 200+ more points? Got me there. Throw in losing the Ravenguard trait and strats to get the full use out of him and I'd say no.

Yes, Gman being better is just common sense. As to the value of the increase you need to look at what he is buffing. If I recall, the rough numbers are capt+lt buffs by 35% and Gman by 70% (depends on weapon, but let’s go with this 2x for 2x cost). So the question is what is 35% of what you will have in his bubble? In a 2000 pt list, this is likely to be more than 200pts, so Gman is worth the cost difference. If you were to keep all 1600pts inside, he’s worth it for buffs alone and the beatstick portion totally free.

That’s why he breaks marine pricing, with him everything is essentially 35% better than for chapters without him at a fixed rate tax that is too high in small games and too low at medium and larger.


And back to the tank, well, the nerf gets me off the fence of maybe getting any. Just not worth the cost in points or dollars now.