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I miss the days when Tyranids, and to a lesser degree daemons via summoning rules, could be brought back onto the board. It kind of sucks to bring 200 bugs and to remove half of them from play after the first turn of the game. Without Number and similar, 'bring it back on 4+' has been a rule in 40k from 4th-7th, I think it's a great way of balancing hordes against elite armies. It also gives the army a much great sense of being a vast horde, and avoids the weird contortions you get with trying to balance very squishy stuff against more solid units.

Nurglitch wrote:
I miss the days when Tyranids, and to a lesser degree daemons via summoning rules, could be brought back onto the board. It kind of sucks to bring 200 bugs and to remove half of them from play after the first turn of the game. Without Number and similar, 'bring it back on 4+' has been a rule in 40k from 4th-7th, I think it's a great way of balancing hordes against elite armies. It also gives the army a much great sense of being a vast horde, and avoids the weird contortions you get with trying to balance very squishy stuff against more solid units.

This post seems indicate that you believe horde armies are suffering in current 40k.

That's... That's not really the case. Hordes are great.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
I miss the days when Tyranids, and to a lesser degree daemons via summoning rules, could be brought back onto the board. It kind of sucks to bring 200 bugs and to remove half of them from play after the first turn of the game. Without Number and similar, 'bring it back on 4+' has been a rule in 40k from 4th-7th, I think it's a great way of balancing hordes against elite armies. It also gives the army a much great sense of being a vast horde, and avoids the weird contortions you get with trying to balance very squishy stuff against more solid units.

This post seems indicate that you believe horde armies are suffering in current 40k.

That's... That's not really the case. Hordes are great.

Competitively, sure, but I'm talking moreso about the feel of them.

For fun, non-competitive games, I'm all for this. In fact, I'm currently in a "paused" game with my boys in which they are facing an endless Horde of Daemons.
Each time a unit of Daemon Troops is completely destroyed, place them aside until the next Daemon player turn, at which time they will arrive anywhere on the table that is 9" outside enemy models.

The scenario we are playing has different victory conditions. The non-deamon player gains 1VP for each model killed and the game ends when the non-Daemon player is overwhelmed and completely destroyed. Or the game ends when the Daemon Prince leading the Horde is destroyed (boss battle style)

We are currently playing a 2-player version. That is, I am controlling the Daemon Horde as if they were NPCs and both my boys have some Marines and are keeping separate tallies for VPs. When the game ends, the player with the most VPs wins

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Nurglitch wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
I miss the days when Tyranids, and to a lesser degree daemons via summoning rules, could be brought back onto the board. It kind of sucks to bring 200 bugs and to remove half of them from play after the first turn of the game. Without Number and similar, 'bring it back on 4+' has been a rule in 40k from 4th-7th, I think it's a great way of balancing hordes against elite armies. It also gives the army a much great sense of being a vast horde, and avoids the weird contortions you get with trying to balance very squishy stuff against more solid units.

This post seems indicate that you believe horde armies are suffering in current 40k.

That's... That's not really the case. Hordes are great.

Competitively, sure, but I'm talking moreso about the feel of them.

How does rolling over small elite armies through sheer weight of bodies even in casual games not "feel" like a vast horde?

Because I'm constantly losing models, essentially, rather than using them on the board.

I'm a little irked that half my army doesn't spend any time on the board past turn 1. I'd rather have 100 models on the board for 5-7 turns than 200 on turn 1, 100 on turn 2, 50 on turn 3, and then 20-30 for the rest of the game.

Nurglitch wrote:
Because I'm constantly losing models, essentially, rather than using them on the board.

I'm a little irked that half my army doesn't spend any time on the board past turn 1. I'd rather have 100 models on the board for 5-7 turns than 200 on turn 1, 100 on turn 2, 50 on turn 3, and then 20-30 for the rest of the game.

What army do you run?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Because I'm constantly losing models, essentially, rather than using them on the board.

I'm a little irked that half my army doesn't spend any time on the board past turn 1. I'd rather have 100 models on the board for 5-7 turns than 200 on turn 1, 100 on turn 2, 50 on turn 3, and then 20-30 for the rest of the game.

What army do you run?

Orks, Astra Militarum, Tyranids, Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines.

Nurglitch wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Because I'm constantly losing models, essentially, rather than using them on the board.

I'm a little irked that half my army doesn't spend any time on the board past turn 1. I'd rather have 100 models on the board for 5-7 turns than 200 on turn 1, 100 on turn 2, 50 on turn 3, and then 20-30 for the rest of the game.

What army do you run?

Orks, Astra Militarum, Tyranids, Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines.

Orks run awesome hordes, but you have to commit to one type of army. If you mix infantry blobs with vehicles, you'll give all your opponent's guns perfect targets. Go full-in on one type of list, that'll do you well.

Guard is pretty top-notch. You can support your Infantry Squads with Russes, since Russes are a dang sight tougher than Ork vehicles and pack more punch.

Nids are a bit trickier to make work with hordes, but Leviathan helps.

Finall, SM and CSM aren't really horde armies.

I think it would help to understand I'm proposing a rule to change the flavour of the game, not asking for help to be more competitive with the standard rules.

As I am eluding to, this can absolutely work, but you need to structure the game around it so that both players can have fun. I.e. build both armies in anticipation of the endless swarm to come.
The opponent should be able to build against it (i.e take less tank weapons and more RoF weapons)

You basically just build the scenario and play.

Otherwise, I think you could add a Stratagem to the BRB for Narrative games:
2CPs - Use this stratagem when a Troop unit with a starting size of 20+ models is completely destroyed. The unit is immediately placed in Tactical Reserves at full strength and will arrive in the next player turn anywhere on the table outside 9" of enemy models

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Nurglitch wrote:
I think it would help to understand I'm proposing a rule to change the flavour of the game, not asking for help to be more competitive with the standard rules.

Right, but what you're proposing is "Take the more powerful stuff, and buff it."

See the issue?

 Galef wrote:
As I am eluding to, this can absolutely work, but you need to structure the game around it so that both players can have fun. I.e. build both armies in anticipation of the endless swarm to come.

How do you usually build the scenario? What works and what doesn't?

Nurglitch wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As I am eluding to, this can absolutely work, but you need to structure the game around it so that both players can have fun. I.e. build both armies in anticipation of the endless swarm to come.

How do you usually build the scenario? What works and what doesn't?

A quick note-Galef is usually playing with his kids (he's a good dad, from all I've heard) and they only kinda vaguely follow the official rules. It works for them, and they have a blast, but if you play at a gaming store, it'd probably be a LOT harder to get this kind of stuff going.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As I am eluding to, this can absolutely work, but you need to structure the game around it so that both players can have fun. I.e. build both armies in anticipation of the endless swarm to come.

How do you usually build the scenario? What works and what doesn't?

A quick note-Galef is usually playing with his kids (he's a good dad, from all I've heard) and they only kinda vaguely follow the official rules. It works for them, and they have a blast, but if you play at a gaming store, it'd probably be a LOT harder to get this kind of stuff going.

Aw, Thanx, we do have fun and we try to use "official" rules, including FAQs as much as possible, but we tweak some things most games so that everyone has fun.
But I do agree building a scenario 100% requires full discussion with your intended opponent.

But isn't that the case for all proposed rules? They aren't official, so you need opponents approval anyway.

You could also do this by proposing a Stratagem as I've suggested above, but I suspect if you are using Matched Play, your opponent will want you to pay point for the new models, so why bother. Which is why I think this would only work in a Narrative game, which is kinda what Narrative it for, so.

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 Galef wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As I am eluding to, this can absolutely work, but you need to structure the game around it so that both players can have fun. I.e. build both armies in anticipation of the endless swarm to come.

How do you usually build the scenario? What works and what doesn't?

A quick note-Galef is usually playing with his kids (he's a good dad, from all I've heard) and they only kinda vaguely follow the official rules. It works for them, and they have a blast, but if you play at a gaming store, it'd probably be a LOT harder to get this kind of stuff going.

Aw, Thanx, we do have fun and we try to use "official" rules, including FAQs as much as possible, but we tweak some things most games so that everyone has fun.
But I do agree building a scenario 100% requires full discussion with your intended opponent.

But isn't that the case for all proposed rules? They aren't official, so you need opponents approval anyway.

You could also do this by proposing a Stratagem as I've suggested above, but I suspect if you are using Matched Play, your opponent will want you to pay point for the new models, so why bother. Which is why I think this would only work in a Narrative game, which is kinda what Narrative it for, so.

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It's kind of obvious you'd need your opponent's buy-in to play a game with non-standard rules. I think that's kind of given at this point. I'm more interested in the technical of building this into the standard rules so players can enjoy a game using most or all of their models rather than having big piles of 'dead' models.

Recycling models straight back onto the board is one idea. I rather liked the 4+ from 4th edition (and 5th-7th optional and detachment rules) because killing a unit may permanently delete it and retains that feeling of standard 40k, and I like the tension that it gives when a dice-off like that is rolled. Having units come in from their own board edge is tricky when they're killed in a game where it's 2-3 turns to cross the board in a 5-7 turn game. The daemons deep striking in is useful and thematic for keeping them in the action. They have a native DS rule though, so I'm thinking about stuff like Ork Mobs and so on where they shouldn't have the freedom that stuff deploying via deep strike has, but nothing like basically putting them back in the game to pick their noses back in your deployment zone or strolling in from the board edge without transports.

Daemons don't have native Deep Strike anymore.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daemons don't have native Deep Strike anymore.

No, but just about every faction has a "deep strike" stratagem to copy-paste the rules. Daemons also have Daemonic Ritual to use a precedence

Alternatively, you can have models "arrive" wholly within 6" of any table edge, but also outside 9" of enemy models (which seems standard for all arriving models)

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 Galef wrote:
No, but just about every faction has a "deep strike" stratagem to copy-paste the rules. Daemons also have Daemonic Ritual to use a precedence

Alternatively, you can have models "arrive" wholly within 6" of any table edge, but also outside 9" of enemy models (which seems standard for all arriving models)

Usually those strategems are about set-up before the game starts, but they do seem like a good example of a stratagem that either players could use to bring back units that are put into reserve due to being wiped out on the table, or use as a template for such a stratagem (like the one you provided above).

I very much like Tervigons for the “endless numbers” sort of feel as they replenish termagants or spawn new units. Trouble is in keeping them alive long enough to swamp the enemy in spawned or regenerating hordes.

Another option would be to create a CP-based stratagem that is similar to Necron resurrection; maybe 1 CP for a 4+ return of dead models, 2 CP to guarantee 5 models back and 3 CP for a fresh 10 model squad.

Another option would be to bring in a unit as soon as, say 20 models are "available" to bring in as a new unit.

For example, lets say you have 100 Gaunts in 5 units of 20 each. Rather than requiring a full unit being destroyed before it can come in, you can bring in a new unit as if it was in Reserves as soon as 20 models are killed to form the new unit.

So if unit A loses 5 models, unit B loses 12, and unit C loses 7 models, you now have 24 dead Guants. 20 of them can form a new unit to be brought in as Reinforcements
It would have to cost 3CPs to use in Narrative/Open play (because the new unit would be "free"), or 1CP in Matched play + paying reinforcement points

Edit: Side note, anyone else think that "Reinforcement points" should get a discount since the majority of cases in which you use them, you are already paying CPs and have other restrictions (i.e. having to wait until turn 2, or not move a character using Daemonic Ritual, etc)?
It seems like no one uses Reinforcement points in competitive games, outside of maybe adding an Assassin to your army, but they FAQ'd that strat to be 2CPs, so now you're better off using an Aux detachment anyway

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Couple of things:

1.) Isn't there a narrative mission in the main rulebook with respawning units? Seems like a good fit for what you're going for. It gives your opponent a heads up that he should invest in plenty of anti-infantry, and it gives you your respawning waves of dudes.

2.) Don't pretty much all horde armies have some sort of Without Number strat? Orks and chaos cultists can spend CP to respawn a squad near a table edge. Drukhari have the same thing for wracks. Tyranids, iirc, have a bunch of strats for bringing in different types of units with command and reserve points. And surely IG have something similar?

Maybe I'm misremembering something?

As others have pointed out, hordes are already quite good in general, so changing the base rules to make them even better could be problematic. There are various strats that let you bring on fresh waves of dudes, but ultimately making an endless horde literally endless is probably going to do bad things to game balance.

Try using Reserves. If you put half your army in reserves they are safe for the first turn and you can re-use the models that died on the table so you don't have to set up so many models to get them ready.

There is at least one mission where the attacking players brings back destroyed units. And there are stratagems which allow you to set up a decimated unit at full starting strength.

In the Meat Grinder mission from the rulebook it references the Sustained Assault rule on pg. 195. That's bringing back units on a 4+, +2 for Troops, setting up within 6" of a battlefield edge. The attacker can also remove models and/or units with 1/4 of their starting wounds/models and roll to bring them back in at full strength within 6" of a battlefield edge.

Incidentally, decimation is when you kill 1/10. Not sure of the term for killing 3/4, but I'm sure the Romans would have had a term for that too.

Play apocalypse.

There is a generic card to add to your deck that allows you to bring back a unit. Tyranids then have their own card "Endless Swarm" that does the same. 2 of 30 cards to respawn units. Potentially being used 2-3 times a game.

You know, I'm actually pretty excited to play Apocalypse. That's good to hear.

To my knowledge the renegades and heretics were one army that could, however only one type of unit (militia) and only on 5+ so at worst for your enemy you could recycle 90-130 pts.

Also you payed 30 pts on top of your arch demagogue and had to field 2 platoons of 15 strong squads atleast. (R&h battalions wer 3-5 militia squads atleast 3 pts) so in total to be even allowed to do so you payed 340 pts.

For a return of 90 pts overall statistically and no way to improve that.

Also you missed out on other demagogue devotions which were more interesting.

What i am saying recycling needs a heavy price or a unit that is abmissmal (militia) or both. In order to not be broken.
And broken recycling we have had with cultists not fun on the reciving end.