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I dont know what to say. I'm stunned. This is utterly ridiculous. In the vigilus defiant FAQ GW ruled that BA, SW, DA, DW detachments are not space marines detachments. Now, with the new repulsor executioner update they are talking about space marine chapters not found in the codex space marines, like BA, DA, DW and SW.

So, a BA, DA, SW, and DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, DA, SW and DW are space marine chapters.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/warhammer_40000_repulsor_executioner_update_en.pdf

The Repulsor Executioner has been released for the forces of the Adeptus
Astartes, and its datasheet can be found in its construction guide. On
that datasheet is the <Chapter> Faction keyword, meaning it belongs
to Space Marine Chapters from Codex: Space Marines. You can, however,
take this unit as part of another Space Marine Chapter not found within
that publication. To do so, replace the <Chapter> keyword in every
instance on that unit’s datasheet with Blood Angels (or the keyword of
a Blood Angels successor Chapter, e.g. Flesh Tearers), Dark Angels
(or the keyword of a Dark Angels successor Chapter, e.g. Angels of
Absolution), Space Wolves or Deathwatch.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/warhammer_40000_imperium_nihilus_vigilus_defiant_en-1.pdf

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or
Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space
Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes
units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists,
Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron
Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

Even more hilarious consequence: if you make a custom chapter that uses the Ultramarines chapter tactics your detachment is not a space marine detachment. But if you use the ULTRAMARINES keyword and just write some out-of-game fluff about your custom chapter it counts as a space marine detachment.

What is the actual issue here? Is it just that a space marine detachment and a space chapter are different things and you think that shouldn't be the case? Or does it cause rule issues I'm missing?

 Stux wrote:
What is the actual issue here? Is it just that a space marine detachment and a space chapter are different things and you think that shouldn't be the case? Or does it cause rule issues I'm missing?

Just the inherent hilarity of iconic marine chapters not actually being marines if you look at the rules close enough.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
What is the actual issue here? Is it just that a space marine detachment and a space chapter are different things and you think that shouldn't be the case? Or does it cause rule issues I'm missing?

Just the inherent hilarity of iconic marine chapters not actually being marines if you look at the rules close enough.

Right... But it's just a way of delineating content from different Codexes. I really don't get why this is a big deal.

 Peregrine wrote:
Even more hilarious consequence: if you make a custom chapter that uses the Ultramarines chapter tactics your detachment is not a space marine detachment. But if you use the ULTRAMARINES keyword and just write some out-of-game fluff about your custom chapter it counts as a space marine detachment.

Nope. If you read there, it says <chapter> units.

<chapter> I believe is allowed to be anything EXCEPT deathwatch, blood angels, etc.

I thought the rule meant if I used a <chapter> called "Alaitoc", my Marines couldn't hop in a Wave Serpent. But my Marines were still Space Marines.

This is not a rules question, thats why its not in YMDC. Its just that BA, DA, SW, DW are space marines, and they are not space marines.

They're space marines in architecture and lore, but they're not Codex Space Marines, because they're special and something else. It makes sense to me.

This all stems from having multiple codexes for space marines. The original vanilla codex is called "Space Marines". The snowflakes are called by their chapter name in the codex title. It's just a way to differentiate between codexes.

Can be solved by unifying all the Adeptus Astartes under one codex, barring Grey Knights.

 p5freak wrote:
This is not a rules question, thats why its not in YMDC. Its just that BA, DA, SW, DW are space marines, and they are not space marines.

So this is a complete non issue, got it.

Neat.

Quasistellar wrote:
This all stems from having multiple codexes for space marines. The original vanilla codex is called "Space Marines". The snowflakes are called by their chapter name in the codex title. It's just a way to differentiate between codexes.

Can be solved by unifying all the Adeptus Astartes under one codex, barring Grey Knights.

Bingo. Consolidation fixes a lot. With Space Wolves having no successors though and ACTUALLY having a giant deviation in organization, they can probably stay by themselves. Angels as separate codices need to go though.

Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need to be consolidated into a single Inquisition codex. There's honestly not that many entries that it can't be done. Hell I'm pretty sure the Tyranid codex would only be slightly smaller based on the entries themselves.

Except that there's really nothing to fix here. I've never seen this misplayed or be a serious problem. Blood Angels from the "Ultramarines" chapter use the BA book, not the SM book.

Bharring wrote:
Except that there's really nothing to fix here. I've never seen this misplayed or be a serious problem. Blood Angels from the "Ultramarines" chapter use the BA book, not the SM book.

it's just p[art of the intellctually dishonest "duur it's too confusing, they need to consilidate the marines for 'ease" arguement.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This all stems from having multiple codexes for space marines. The original vanilla codex is called "Space Marines". The snowflakes are called by their chapter name in the codex title. It's just a way to differentiate between codexes.

Can be solved by unifying all the Adeptus Astartes under one codex, barring Grey Knights.

Bingo. Consolidation fixes a lot. With Space Wolves having no successors though and ACTUALLY having a giant deviation in organization, they can probably stay by themselves. Angels as separate codices need to go though.

Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need to be consolidated into a single Inquisition codex. There's honestly not that many entries that it can't be done. Hell I'm pretty sure the Tyranid codex would only be slightly smaller based on the entries themselves.

Space Wolves have successors now due to Cawl. Deathwatch now have no connection to the Ordo Xenos.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This all stems from having multiple codexes for space marines. The original vanilla codex is called "Space Marines". The snowflakes are called by their chapter name in the codex title. It's just a way to differentiate between codexes.

Can be solved by unifying all the Adeptus Astartes under one codex, barring Grey Knights.

Bingo. Consolidation fixes a lot. With Space Wolves having no successors though and ACTUALLY having a giant deviation in organization, they can probably stay by themselves. Angels as separate codices need to go though.

Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need to be consolidated into a single Inquisition codex. There's honestly not that many entries that it can't be done. Hell I'm pretty sure the Tyranid codex would only be slightly smaller based on the entries themselves.

Space Wolves have successors now due to Cawl. Deathwatch now have no connection to the Ordo Xenos.

I thought it was just Primaris successors, which I really don't count.

Deathwatch still have enough connection previously anyway that you can safely consolidate. If Grey Knights and Sisters used to work JUST FINE and have NO PROBLEMS, why are we giving an exception?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Except that there's really nothing to fix here. I've never seen this misplayed or be a serious problem. Blood Angels from the "Ultramarines" chapter use the BA book, not the SM book.

it's just p[art of the intellctually dishonest "duur it's too confusing, they need to consilidate the marines for 'ease" arguement.

Except Marines need to be consolidated as 95% of everything is shared. There's no point outside you just wanting to feel special when you honestly aren't. The Angels especially don't have enough deviation from organization that it even makes sense to pretend they need a separate codex to be represented, especially when a lot of the unique stuff is hardly unique. The Dark Angels fliers are easily the biggest offender.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Except that there's really nothing to fix here. I've never seen this misplayed or be a serious problem. Blood Angels from the "Ultramarines" chapter use the BA book, not the SM book.

Inconsistencies like this shouldn't happen. At all.

It's not 95% though and having had to use imperium index 1 for longer than codex marine players, let me just say I never want to go back to a book that badly organised again.

Even ignoring the 16 named characters in codex space marines, there's 11 entries that the dark angels can't use. I just counted 69 non named units in the SM codex (not including shadow spear which isn't in yet). 69-11=58
58/69 it's 84%.
With named characters it's 58/85 it's 68%.

68% is still a lot of overlap but I was being generous by counting bikes, attack bikes and land speeders as the same as their ravenwing equivalents. I can't remember off hand if there's a difference other than jink but if there is, it becomes 65%.
That's a lot less than 95%. So please, don't make up wild statistics.

And before anyone says Deathwing are the same as normal terminators or assault terminators, no, they're not. That's like saying all aspect warriors could be combined into a single entry. Don't go there.

The game needs a lot less power armor, but not the way gw is making it happen. Consolidating the stupid snowflake marines and getting rid of dw would help with that.

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs a lot less power armor, but not the way gw is making it happen. Consolidating the stupid snowflake marines and getting rid of dw would help with that.

Are there any separate codex chapters you don't want to squat?

Most of them would just be in one book. DW is stupid. The marines are already ridiculously elite and rare. EVEN MOAR MARINES MARINES are not needed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This all stems from having multiple codexes for space marines. The original vanilla codex is called "Space Marines". The snowflakes are called by their chapter name in the codex title. It's just a way to differentiate between codexes.

Can be solved by unifying all the Adeptus Astartes under one codex, barring Grey Knights.

Bingo. Consolidation fixes a lot. With Space Wolves having no successors though and ACTUALLY having a giant deviation in organization, they can probably stay by themselves. Angels as separate codices need to go though.

Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need to be consolidated into a single Inquisition codex. There's honestly not that many entries that it can't be done. Hell I'm pretty sure the Tyranid codex would only be slightly smaller based on the entries themselves.

Sisters aren't space marines at all though. You'd be adding a codex worth of special rules to a codex with two codex worth of special rules already.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This all stems from having multiple codexes for space marines. The original vanilla codex is called "Space Marines". The snowflakes are called by their chapter name in the codex title. It's just a way to differentiate between codexes.

Can be solved by unifying all the Adeptus Astartes under one codex, barring Grey Knights.

Bingo. Consolidation fixes a lot. With Space Wolves having no successors though and ACTUALLY having a giant deviation in organization, they can probably stay by themselves. Angels as separate codices need to go though.

Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need to be consolidated into a single Inquisition codex. There's honestly not that many entries that it can't be done. Hell I'm pretty sure the Tyranid codex would only be slightly smaller based on the entries themselves.

Sisters aren't space marines at all though. You'd be adding a codex worth of special rules to a codex with two codex worth of special rules already.

They're a military force often associated with a particular Inquisition branch. They were in a book together before. After all. So in the end, what more is the Deathwatch and Grey Knights into the fold? Inquisitors are just one entry where you attach a particular keyword and BAM you're done.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This all stems from having multiple codexes for space marines. The original vanilla codex is called "Space Marines". The snowflakes are called by their chapter name in the codex title. It's just a way to differentiate between codexes.

Can be solved by unifying all the Adeptus Astartes under one codex, barring Grey Knights.

Bingo. Consolidation fixes a lot. With Space Wolves having no successors though and ACTUALLY having a giant deviation in organization, they can probably stay by themselves. Angels as separate codices need to go though.

Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need to be consolidated into a single Inquisition codex. There's honestly not that many entries that it can't be done. Hell I'm pretty sure the Tyranid codex would only be slightly smaller based on the entries themselves.

Space Wolves have successors now due to Cawl. Deathwatch now have no connection to the Ordo Xenos.

GW made grey knights and death watch space marine chapters that work WITH their respective part of the inqusition as opposed to FOR. which IMHO is honestly more thematic to how Marines are within 40k

Zustiur wrote:
It's not 95% though and having had to use imperium index 1 for longer than codex marine players, let me just say I never want to go back to a book that badly organised again.

Even ignoring the 16 named characters in codex space marines, there's 11 entries that the dark angels can't use. I just counted 69 non named units in the SM codex (not including shadow spear which isn't in yet). 69-11=58
58/69 it's 84%.
With named characters it's 58/85 it's 68%.

68% is still a lot of overlap but I was being generous by counting bikes, attack bikes and land speeders as the same as their ravenwing equivalents. I can't remember off hand if there's a difference other than jink but if there is, it becomes 65%.
That's a lot less than 95%. So please, don't make up wild statistics.

And before anyone says Deathwing are the same as normal terminators or assault terminators, no, they're not. That's like saying all aspect warriors could be combined into a single entry. Don't go there.

I don't count named characters ever and to be honest I'm all for getting rid of some of them. Nobody is gonna miss Tellion or Asmodai, sorry.

Space Marine Fliers already cover the Dark Angel's ones with too many similarities, and I'm already annoyed the Stormhawk is a separate entry from the Stormtalon to be honest. That's one consolidation that could be made.

And yes Deathwing are exactly the same. Nobody makes a squad that's 1 LC dude, one TH/SS, one Chainfist, one Assault Cannon, and one Power Sword Sarge. You end up specializing the squad which is already done, surprise surprise, by the two entries done with Tactical/Assault Terminators. Hell, that would make it easier to do a fluffy Deathwing force by avoiding the silly Rule of 3, huh?
Regarding the Aspect Warriors, they actually have differing stats all over and LOTS of varying equipment. The only thing Deathwing have that's unique is the Plasma Cannon literally nobody uses.

Get over Deathwing being special, because they're not.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This all stems from having multiple codexes for space marines. The original vanilla codex is called "Space Marines". The snowflakes are called by their chapter name in the codex title. It's just a way to differentiate between codexes.

Can be solved by unifying all the Adeptus Astartes under one codex, barring Grey Knights.

Bingo. Consolidation fixes a lot. With Space Wolves having no successors though and ACTUALLY having a giant deviation in organization, they can probably stay by themselves. Angels as separate codices need to go though.

Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need to be consolidated into a single Inquisition codex. There's honestly not that many entries that it can't be done. Hell I'm pretty sure the Tyranid codex would only be slightly smaller based on the entries themselves.

Sisters aren't space marines at all though. You'd be adding a codex worth of special rules to a codex with two codex worth of special rules already.

They're a military force often associated with a particular Inquisition branch. They were in a book together before. After all. So in the end, what more is the Deathwatch and Grey Knights into the fold? Inquisitors are just one entry where you attach a particular keyword and BAM you're done.

Inquisitors have been in books with both Grey Knighs and Sisters. None of the three (GK,DW, SOB) have ever been in the same book before. Furthermore, unlike the marines, none of them have units in common, and only two of them have 'some' rules in common. It would be a book the size of a phone book just to shoe horn them all together.

Hardly. The Grey Knight codex is maybe 20~, give or take. Remove the entries that don't matter (nobody is going to miss Crowe or the obviously imbalanced GMDreadknight) and that's pretty easy. Deathwatch only look flooded in entries because of the addition of Primaris units. Otherwise they share a bunch of datasheets themselves from the vehicles.

Or just get rid of DW. Because they are a dumb power fantasy.

Martel732 wrote:
Or just get rid of DW. Because they are a dumb power fantasy.

Dawn take you.



yup because deathwatch don't have a fairly rich background dating back 20 years or so with multiple apperances in fluff, a RPG and all sorts of other things. nope they're just some dumb power fantasy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hardly. The Grey Knight codex is maybe 20~, give or take. Remove the entries that don't matter (nobody is going to miss Crowe or the obviously imbalanced GMDreadknight) and that's pretty easy. Deathwatch only look flooded in entries because of the addition of Primaris units. Otherwise they share a bunch of datasheets themselves from the vehicles.

So, it's another case of you thinking something is gak, so it has to go. Nevermind the fact that people use them.
It's still three codex worth of separate armies you're trying to cram together, simply on the grounds of some weird feeling of superiority.