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Again, you bandy around words like most and many as though you have any data to support it. Please, show your work. Where is that data?

I never stated my opinion on the fluff. I said I don't need it in the codex. I would be perfectly happy to have 1 concise rule book and a separate fluff book with all the pictures in the world. When I am playing the game I want the rules as easily accessible as possible with as little nonsense surrounding it as possible. Buying 4 50.00 books for what should be 1 30.00 book is dumb as feth. And exactly what you are arguing for.

DnD sold the 3rd ed players handbook for 35 dollars. It had more pages and more content for less cost while being the ONLY book needed to play the game AND had a spine that allowed the book to sit flat while open.

GW fethed you over with 4 books at higher individual cost with less content and features and you cheer them on as they do it.

 Lance845 wrote:
DnD sold the 3rd ed players handbook for 35 dollars. It had more pages and more content for less cost while being the ONLY book needed to play the game AND had a spine that allowed the book to sit flat while open.

And the 3rd edition core book was released in the year 2000 - not sure what relevance that has on books released in mid-2017 and onwards...

I like getting all the fluff and art when I buy a codex. GW are catering for more than one type of player, and I am a player who pretty much only plays campaigns and narrative games. For me, the fluff is just as important as the rules. I want both when I buy my codex. Looking at stuff on the interweb is simply not as good as reading it in a book. Sure, I don't need the fluff, but I don't need the rules either, as I don't have to play the game. Fluff and rules both fulfil different desires.

D&D also released somewhere in the ballpark of 70 supplements. each at a price of around 30 bucks. Which is proably where their real money came from (the core rules where avaliable online for free via the SRD after all. they cou;dn't make the books too expensive)

to bring D&D into the arguement, the current PHB costs 49.95 USD. so yes D&D is cheaper. but that shou;dn't suprise anyone. D&D is the biggest table top game out there. WOTC almost certainly has a economy of scale advantage over WOTC.

 Lance845 wrote:
Again, you bandy around words like most and many as though you have any data to support it. Please, show your work. Where is that data?

I never stated my opinion on the fluff. I said I don't need it in the codex. I would be perfectly happy to have 1 concise rule book and a separate fluff book with all the pictures in the world. When I am playing the game I want the rules as easily accessible as possible with as little nonsense surrounding it as possible. Buying 4 50.00 books for what should be 1 30.00 book is dumb as feth. And exactly what you are arguing for.

DnD sold the 3rd ed players handbook for 35 dollars. It had more pages and more content for less cost while being the ONLY book needed to play the game AND had a spine that allowed the book to sit flat while open.

GW fethed you over with 4 books at higher individual cost with less content and features and you cheer them on as they do it.

I responded to your claim...which you made without data. I already said I'll get data to support mine, once you pony up yours.

I said you don't need or want it. That's an opinion on fluff.

And many other people are perfectly happy having their army's fluff and models in their army's book, without having to make a separate purchase.
I also want the rules as easily accessible as possible, with as little nonsense getting in the way of that. Which is why codexes are typically divided by chapters, some for rules, some for models, some for fluff.
Buying two $50 books instead of having to buy one $180 is far more acceptable, particularly as GW wouldn't price a combined codex for less than that. Remember, the Indexes were only temporary. It's a fluke that any part of them has stayed in game circulation this long.

DnD is a completely different game by a completely different company, who sold the three core rule books in 2000 (not 2019) for a loss. Yes, a loss. Remember, at the same time, GW sold main codexes for $20-25 and suplemental dex for $10-15. And sure, a player officially only needed the core book, but hey, if you wanted any extra content, it was $20-$35 dollars for each additional book, of which there was close to 80. I know. I own most of them.

GW will feth you over even more with one book, and that doesn't end if you insist on selling fluff separately. But at least the current system doesn't have you buying armies you don't need.

Please don't use compound swear words as they often don't get caught by the filter- ingtaer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To Ingtaer, my mistake. Wasn't intentional at all.

Speaking from a game design perspective. and from a perspective of accepting that space marines don't really work in the game the way it is at the moment. It could only be a good thing to have them consolidated.

This consolidation could retain the famous units for each sub group, and have unique rules and strategems for them, along with potentially providing the greater whole with some of the more useful strats of each sub faction.

But importantly this would mean there would be a single point for which GW could make alterations. If a space marine 2.0 codex came out, it would provide changes to everyone, and not leave BA, SW etc out in the cold.

3rd ed worked in a similar way with small sub codexes that required the core space marine codex to function. When the space marine codex was updated, those updates naturally trickled through to the sub codexes. Now if we had a similar system by merging the sub factions into a single book (while retaining their characteristics), only good things could come from this (other than having a heavier book).

to back up what Mmmpi is saying WOTC sold the D&D core books as loss leaders. and made their profit off the various supplements. back in the days of 3rd/3.5 WOTC was publishing two supplements a MONTH.

secretForge wrote:
Speaking from a game design perspective. and from a perspective of accepting that space marines don't really work in the game the way it is at the moment. It could only be a good thing to have them consolidated.

This consolidation could retain the famous units for each sub group, and have unique rules and strategems for them, along with potentially providing the greater whole with some of the more useful strats of each sub faction.

But importantly this would mean there would be a single point for which GW could make alterations. If a space marine 2.0 codex came out, it would provide changes to everyone, and not leave BA, SW etc out in the cold.

3rd ed worked in a similar way with small sub codexes that required the core space marine codex to function. When the space marine codex was updated, those updates naturally trickled through to the sub codexes. Now if we had a similar system by merging the sub factions into a single book (while retaining their characteristics), only good things could come from this (other than having a heavier book).

Yeah, who decided what units get kept?

They all add flavor, and the indexes continuing popularity with players in general show people don't like losing choices.

Those sub codexes existed for Black Templar and...that's it. The other Marines had their own full books that referred directly to either the rule book, or held the info themselves.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
to back up what Mmmpi is saying WOTC sold the D&D core books as loss leaders. and made their profit off the various supplements. back in the days of 3rd/3.5 WOTC was publishing two supplements a MONTH.

I'm still trying to figure out how I kept up with half of that and still played 40K.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Yeah, who decided what units get kept?

They all add flavor, and the indexes continuing popularity with players in general show people don't like losing choices.

Those sub codexes existed for Black Templar and...that's it. The other Marines had their own full books that referred directly to either the rule book, or held the info themselves.

He's talking about 3rd edition, which did indeed have Codex: Space Marines and then sub-books for Blood Angels and Dark Angels which were just "here's the extra stuff, refer to Codex: Space Marines for the rest." IIrc they were 48 pages for the main book and 24 pages for the others.

I remember 3rd ed, and I'm fairly certain Space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels had full rules.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I remember 3rd ed, and I'm fairly certain Space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels had full rules.

Nope. They were supplements. Entries for shared units just said 'see Codex Space Marines.'

 Mmmpi wrote:
I remember 3rd ed, and I'm fairly certain Space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels had full rules.

They did not. I still have my 3rd ed book.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I remember 3rd ed, and I'm fairly certain Space wolves, Blood angels, and Dark Angels had full rules.

Quick google search says otherwise. There was a bigger SM book and the three chapters had smaller books.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.
2. Crowe IS nothing more than a Relic, and a bad one at that. He can't do anything special based on the list I have given, and you can't even bother to refute it. Please by all means tell us how to fix him, like making him HALF the cost of a Champ! That's a great way to show off a special character!
Oh wait it isn't.
3. ...did you REALLY ask what bloat? Do I need to give you a list?
4. What options are being taken away? The Dark Angels fliers are almost exactly the same as the Vanilla ones. Furiosos are already almost like Ironclads. Nobody mixes their Deathwing so much that the basic Tactical/Assault profiles can't just be used. Novice Sanguine Priests are really just fancy Apothecaries.
AKA your models are still fine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or kill off ba, gk, dw, and sw in glorious fashion.

Is there a good reason for that? Or are you just angry about SM not being good?

He doesn't actually play 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.

Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.

Neither of these things are true..

I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.

It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.

You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.

Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?

It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.

They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.

As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that

Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.


[

Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.

We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?

What bloat?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.

You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.

you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.

It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.

A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.

Oh wait...you are.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.
2. Crowe IS nothing more than a Relic, and a bad one at that. He can't do anything special based on the list I have given, and you can't even bother to refute it. Please by all means tell us how to fix him, like making him HALF the cost of a Champ! That's a great way to show off a special character!
Oh wait it isn't.
3. ...did you REALLY ask what bloat? Do I need to give you a list?
4. What options are being taken away? The Dark Angels fliers are almost exactly the same as the Vanilla ones. Furiosos are already almost like Ironclads. Nobody mixes their Deathwing so much that the basic Tactical/Assault profiles can't just be used. Novice Sanguine Priests are really just fancy Apothecaries.
AKA your models are still fine.

1. The responses in this thread indicate otherwise.

2. Nope. I've already discussed this. No point in continuing, outside of reminding you that you're just pushing your opinion on others.

3. Yes. No you don't, mostly because I won't bother to read it.

4. But those fliers aren't the same. Furiosos aren't the same. No one in tournaments mixes deathwing. You're correct about NCP's and apothecaries actually.

AKA most of us don't want you trying to push square pegs in round holes.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or kill off ba, gk, dw, and sw in glorious fashion.

Is there a good reason for that? Or are you just angry about SM not being good?

He doesn't actually play 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.

Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.

Neither of these things are true..

I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.

It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.

You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.

Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?

It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.

They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.

As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that

Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.


[

Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.

We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?

What bloat?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.

You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.

you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.

It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.

A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.

Oh wait...you are.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.
2. Crowe IS nothing more than a Relic, and a bad one at that. He can't do anything special based on the list I have given, and you can't even bother to refute it. Please by all means tell us how to fix him, like making him HALF the cost of a Champ! That's a great way to show off a special character!
Oh wait it isn't.
3. ...did you REALLY ask what bloat? Do I need to give you a list?
4. What options are being taken away? The Dark Angels fliers are almost exactly the same as the Vanilla ones. Furiosos are already almost like Ironclads. Nobody mixes their Deathwing so much that the basic Tactical/Assault profiles can't just be used. Novice Sanguine Priests are really just fancy Apothecaries.
AKA your models are still fine.

1. The responses in this thread indicate otherwise.

2. Nope. I've already discussed this. No point in continuing, outside of reminding you that you're just pushing your opinion on others.

3. Yes. No you don't, mostly because I won't bother to read it.

4. But those fliers aren't the same. Furiosos aren't the same. No one in tournaments mixes deathwing. You're correct about NCP's and apothecaries actually.

AKA most of us don't want you trying to push square pegs in round holes.

1. The responses in this thread are the same fear mongering. The Index has been brought up many a time and you ignore the point completely. I wonder why that is?
2. Then go to the Proposed Rules section and fix Crowe. I know you won't though and I will put money in that.
3. There is clearly a good amount of bloat. Just because it isn't at 7th edition levels doesn't mean it's clearly going to reach there. I mean, look at the frickin Chaos Knight codex.
4. The Fliers REALLY are the same outside stupid minor differences and Strategems (which don't count for anything), Furiosos are the same kinda-tough melee Dread that Ironclads are, and not even casual players are going to make a Deathwing squad that's 1 LC, 1 TH/SS, 1 Chainfist, 1 Assault Cannon, and 1 Power Sword Sarge. Know why? It's stupid. It's literally stupidity.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or kill off ba, gk, dw, and sw in glorious fashion.

Is there a good reason for that? Or are you just angry about SM not being good?

He doesn't actually play 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.

Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.

Neither of these things are true..

I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.

It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.

You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.

Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?

It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.

They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.

As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that

Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.


[

Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.

We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?

What bloat?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.

You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.

you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.

It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.

A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.

Oh wait...you are.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.
2. Crowe IS nothing more than a Relic, and a bad one at that. He can't do anything special based on the list I have given, and you can't even bother to refute it. Please by all means tell us how to fix him, like making him HALF the cost of a Champ! That's a great way to show off a special character!
Oh wait it isn't.
3. ...did you REALLY ask what bloat? Do I need to give you a list?
4. What options are being taken away? The Dark Angels fliers are almost exactly the same as the Vanilla ones. Furiosos are already almost like Ironclads. Nobody mixes their Deathwing so much that the basic Tactical/Assault profiles can't just be used. Novice Sanguine Priests are really just fancy Apothecaries.
AKA your models are still fine.

1. The responses in this thread indicate otherwise.

2. Nope. I've already discussed this. No point in continuing, outside of reminding you that you're just pushing your opinion on others.

3. Yes. No you don't, mostly because I won't bother to read it.

4. But those fliers aren't the same. Furiosos aren't the same. No one in tournaments mixes deathwing. You're correct about NCP's and apothecaries actually.

AKA most of us don't want you trying to push square pegs in round holes.

1. The responses in this thread are the same fear mongering. The Index has been brought up many a time and you ignore the point completely. I wonder why that is?
2. Then go to the Proposed Rules section and fix Crowe. I know you won't though and I will put money in that.
3. There is clearly a good amount of bloat. Just because it isn't at 7th edition levels doesn't mean it's clearly going to reach there. I mean, look at the frickin Chaos Knight codex.
4. The Fliers REALLY are the same outside stupid minor differences and Strategems (which don't count for anything), Furiosos are the same kinda-tough melee Dread that Ironclads are, and not even casual players are going to make a Deathwing squad that's 1 LC, 1 TH/SS, 1 Chainfist, 1 Assault Cannon, and 1 Power Sword Sarge. Know why? It's stupid. It's literally stupidity.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or kill off ba, gk, dw, and sw in glorious fashion.

Is there a good reason for that? Or are you just angry about SM not being good?

He doesn't actually play 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.

Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.

Neither of these things are true..

I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.

It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.

You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.

Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?

It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.

They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.

As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that

Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.


[

Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.

We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?

What bloat?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.

You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.

you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.

It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.

A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.

Oh wait...you are.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.
2. Crowe IS nothing more than a Relic, and a bad one at that. He can't do anything special based on the list I have given, and you can't even bother to refute it. Please by all means tell us how to fix him, like making him HALF the cost of a Champ! That's a great way to show off a special character!
Oh wait it isn't.
3. ...did you REALLY ask what bloat? Do I need to give you a list?
4. What options are being taken away? The Dark Angels fliers are almost exactly the same as the Vanilla ones. Furiosos are already almost like Ironclads. Nobody mixes their Deathwing so much that the basic Tactical/Assault profiles can't just be used. Novice Sanguine Priests are really just fancy Apothecaries.
AKA your models are still fine.

1. The responses in this thread indicate otherwise.

2. Nope. I've already discussed this. No point in continuing, outside of reminding you that you're just pushing your opinion on others.

3. Yes. No you don't, mostly because I won't bother to read it.

4. But those fliers aren't the same. Furiosos aren't the same. No one in tournaments mixes deathwing. You're correct about NCP's and apothecaries actually.

AKA most of us don't want you trying to push square pegs in round holes.

1. The responses in this thread are the same fear mongering. The Index has been brought up many a time and you ignore the point completely. I wonder why that is?

Yet most of the player base loves the depth of their Codex over the streamlining of the Index. I actually prefer the Indexes myself, but I'm a clear minority there. But the point is, Codexes are clearly different from the Indexes. Because they're bigger. They have a lot more stuff. So fitting that many Indexes in a book does not support fitting that many Codexes in a book at all. The point is only being ignored because it's indefensible. If anything, the Indexes being put in shared books because they were so streamlined *enhances* the point about such a shared book being too big.

2. Then go to the Proposed Rules section and fix Crowe. I know you won't though and I will put money in that.

Funny how Crowe can't possibly be good because he's a cheaper, worse (per model) option than something else.
But the Serpent/Falcon are a cheaper/worse (per model) Repulsor, and the forums are spasming over how bad Repulsors are.

3. There is clearly a good amount of bloat. Just because it isn't at 7th edition levels doesn't mean it's clearly going to reach there. I mean, look at the frickin Chaos Knight codex.

Sure. Some things could be removed. But hopefully what gets removed is decided by cooler heads than yours or mine.

4. The Fliers REALLY are the same outside stupid minor differences and Strategems (which don't count for anything)

Aside from having different profiles, different weapons, etc? So in the same way that a Vanguard Vet and a Sternie are the same?

Furiosos are the same kinda-tough melee Dread that Ironclads are

So "Super angry blood-crazed dread" is the same as "armor-reinforced dread"? They're both hyper related, being Dread upgrades. They could be more similar. But when I look at the Ironclad and Furioso datasheets, their options aren't anything alike.

, and not even casual players are going to make a Deathwing squad that's 1 LC, 1 TH/SS, 1 Chainfist, 1 Assault Cannon, and 1 Power Sword Sarge.

I've seen such mixed Deathwing squads. It happens. So not factually true.

Know why? It's stupid. It's literally stupidity.

Or maybe they liked the look. Or maybe they use them differently. I'll agree it's certainly off-meta, and most likely not tactically ideal. But those are not the only reasons to do things.

Just because someone makes a different decision than you, that doesn't make it a bad decision.
Even worse, just because someone has different interests or priorities than you, that doesn't make their interests and priorities irrelevant.

And please stop abusing the word 'literally'. It's bad enough that it now means both it's original meaning and it's exact opposite. But neither are appropriate there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4. The Fliers REALLY are the same outside stupid minor differences and Strategems (which don't count for anything), Furiosos are the same kinda-tough melee Dread that Ironclads are, and not even casual players are going to make a Deathwing squad that's 1 LC, 1 TH/SS, 1 Chainfist, 1 Assault Cannon, and 1 Power Sword Sarge. Know why? It's stupid. It's literally stupidity.

"They're really the same - apart from where they're different."

...did you type that with a straight face?

 Dysartes wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4. The Fliers REALLY are the same outside stupid minor differences and Strategems (which don't count for anything), Furiosos are the same kinda-tough melee Dread that Ironclads are, and not even casual players are going to make a Deathwing squad that's 1 LC, 1 TH/SS, 1 Chainfist, 1 Assault Cannon, and 1 Power Sword Sarge. Know why? It's stupid. It's literally stupidity.

"They're really the same - apart from where they're different."

...did you type that with a straight face?

Oh yeah. The missiles having a different name on one of the Dark Angel's fliers totally makes it different from the Stormtalon that has missiles! Brilliant, simply brilliant.

Actually Slayer, what's not stupid is a Deathwing sqd with stormbolters, a heavy weapon (AC or cyclone) plus a single TH/SS (2 if a 10 man sqd) so you can have a 3+ invuln in your shooty sqds.

 bullyboy wrote:
Actually Slayer, what's not stupid is a Deathwing sqd with stormbolters, a heavy weapon (AC or cyclone) plus a single TH/SS (2 if a 10 man sqd) so you can have a 3+ invuln in your shooty sqds.

Precisely. I mentioned this in a similar derailed thread two weeks ago. Never mind that the Dark Talon is in a field of its own.

The established Chapters with Codexes have a long history in the game. They have had distinct books in every edition, although the form of the books has indeed evolved. Heck, the Space Wolves had the first Codex of anybody. I think they have endured for a number of reasons. They have distinct and established lore that transcends a single book or video game. They have distinct organizations that deviate from the Codex Astartes. They have distinct units. They have distinct play-styles. They are also popular. The market has put them where they are.

I know Dark Angels best. I can make three distinct armies from the Codexeathwing, Ravenwing and mixed-Wing. Terminators are n a tough spot this Edition - not the fault of separate Codexes. I have access to units that others do not, and lose access to others.

Regarding the bloat that some love to mention, having the separate books actually keeps it down. Don't careabout Dark Angels stuff but you play Ravenguard? Great -you don't need the Dark Angels book and it keeps your main book shorter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or kill off ba, gk, dw, and sw in glorious fashion.

Is there a good reason for that? Or are you just angry about SM not being good?

He doesn't actually play 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.

Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.

Neither of these things are true..

I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.

It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.

You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.

Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?

It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.

They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.

As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that

Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.


[

Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.

We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?

What bloat?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.

You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.

you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.

It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.

A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.

Oh wait...you are.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.

go count the pages in idex Imperium 1. go on, get to it chop chop.

and remember the index has no art. no fluff, no stratigiums, it is the BARE BONES

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or kill off ba, gk, dw, and sw in glorious fashion.

Is there a good reason for that? Or are you just angry about SM not being good?

He doesn't actually play 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.

Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.

Neither of these things are true..

I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.

It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.

You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.

Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?

It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.

They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.

As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that

Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.


[

Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.

We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?

What bloat?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.

You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.

you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.

It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.

A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.

Oh wait...you are.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.

go count the pages in idex Imperium 1. go on, get to it chop chop.

and remember the index has no art. no fluff, no stratigiums, it is the BARE BONES

It has a bunch of pictures and some art. But okay, sure.

Going through the first part of the book that's 61 pages. Consolidation of unit entries (Land Raiders don't need to be separate entries come on, and the Terminator variant armors are super hilarious seeing as different Mk power armor does nothing different) and you'd probably cut down a good number (let's be conservative for you just say that's 58 pages). Add in 2 pages for each Chapter's special units (3-4 for each one) for a total of 16 pages onto that. Special Characters would be around 10-12 (we hadn't gotten into which special characters actually have a purpose). Strategems are mostly universal (I counted three in the Dark Angels and Vanilla codex) with each Chapter maybe getting 3 or so unique to them, totalling maybe 5 pages. Wargear and unit points would be about 4 pages probably.

You're at less than 100 pages and then you get 50-75 pages of the fluff stuff. Look at that, we ended up at LESS than the 208 pages of the Vanilla codex!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
Actually Slayer, what's not stupid is a Deathwing sqd with stormbolters, a heavy weapon (AC or cyclone) plus a single TH/SS (2 if a 10 man sqd) so you can have a 3+ invuln in your shooty sqds.

I cAn PuT iN oNe StOrM sHiElD tHaT mAkEs ThEm UnIqUe

That's literally what your whole argument hinges on and that's hilarious to me.

Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

 Stux wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
What is the actual issue here? Is it just that a space marine detachment and a space chapter are different things and you think that shouldn't be the case? Or does it cause rule issues I'm missing?

Just the inherent hilarity of iconic marine chapters not actually being marines if you look at the rules close enough.

Right... But it's just a way of delineating content from different Codexes. I really don't get why this is a big deal.

Its the difference between FLYERS and FLY all over again. Had they done a better job with Keywords in the flrst place this wouldn't even be an issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
They're space marines in architecture and lore, but they're not Codex Space Marines, because they're special and something else. It makes sense to me.

We all understand the concept they're not CODEX Space Marines - the issue is how lazy they've been with the Keyword system. It would have been easy to establish a keyword level to differentiate between CODEX and NON-CODEX chapters. But they didn't. And on top of that, they're repeating the similarly enough names to generate confusion in newer people mistake - as mentioned the difference between a FLYER and a model that can FLY.

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or kill off ba, gk, dw, and sw in glorious fashion.

Is there a good reason for that? Or are you just angry about SM not being good?

He doesn't actually play 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.

Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.

Neither of these things are true..

I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.

It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.

You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.

Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?

It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.

They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.

As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that

Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.


[

Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.

We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?

What bloat?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.

You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.

you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.

It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.

A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.

Oh wait...you are.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.

go count the pages in idex Imperium 1. go on, get to it chop chop.

and remember the index has no art. no fluff, no stratigiums, it is the BARE BONES

It has a bunch of pictures and some art. But okay, sure.

Going through the first part of the book that's 61 pages. Consolidation of unit entries (Land Raiders don't need to be separate entries come on, and the Terminator variant armors are super hilarious seeing as different Mk power armor does nothing different) and you'd probably cut down a good number (let's be conservative for you just say that's 58 pages). Add in 2 pages for each Chapter's special units (3-4 for each one) for a total of 16 pages onto that. Special Characters would be around 10-12 (we hadn't gotten into which special characters actually have a purpose). Strategems are mostly universal (I counted three in the Dark Angels and Vanilla codex) with each Chapter maybe getting 3 or so unique to them, totalling maybe 5 pages. Wargear and unit points would be about 4 pages probably.

You're at less than 100 pages and then you get 50-75 pages of the fluff stuff. Look at that, we ended up at LESS than the 208 pages of the Vanilla codex!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
Actually Slayer, what's not stupid is a Deathwing sqd with stormbolters, a heavy weapon (AC or cyclone) plus a single TH/SS (2 if a 10 man sqd) so you can have a 3+ invuln in your shooty sqds.

I cAn PuT iN oNe StOrM sHiElD tHaT mAkEs ThEm UnIqUe

That's literally what your whole argument hinges on and that's hilarious to me.

Yeah! If we cut things down exactly like you think it should be done, we get it all squeezed into 110 pages! Too bad you're not GW, who have their own methodology.

No, the argument about Deathwing is that some people do customize that way, and they aren't wrong to do it. You're mistaking your personal preferences for those of the entire community. Again.

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or kill off ba, gk, dw, and sw in glorious fashion.

Is there a good reason for that? Or are you just angry about SM not being good?

He doesn't actually play 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.

Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.

Neither of these things are true..

I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.

It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.

You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.

Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?

It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.

They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.

As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that

Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.


[

Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.

We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?

What bloat?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.

You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.

you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.

It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.

A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.

Oh wait...you are.

1. This 200 page nonsense is something you're not selling well. Look at the Index armies for example. Pretty concise if you ask me.
2. Crowe IS nothing more than a Relic, and a bad one at that. He can't do anything special based on the list I have given, and you can't even bother to refute it. Please by all means tell us how to fix him, like making him HALF the cost of a Champ! That's a great way to show off a special character!
Oh wait it isn't.
3. ...did you REALLY ask what bloat? Do I need to give you a list?
4. What options are being taken away? The Dark Angels fliers are almost exactly the same as the Vanilla ones. Furiosos are already almost like Ironclads. Nobody mixes their Deathwing so much that the basic Tactical/Assault profiles can't just be used. Novice Sanguine Priests are really just fancy Apothecaries.
AKA your models are still fine.

1. The responses in this thread indicate otherwise.

2. Nope. I've already discussed this. No point in continuing, outside of reminding you that you're just pushing your opinion on others.

3. Yes. No you don't, mostly because I won't bother to read it.

4. But those fliers aren't the same. Furiosos aren't the same. No one in tournaments mixes deathwing. You're correct about NCP's and apothecaries actually.

AKA most of us don't want you trying to push square pegs in round holes.

1. The responses in this thread are the same fear mongering. The Index has been brought up many a time and you ignore the point completely. I wonder why that is?

Yet most of the player base loves the depth of their Codex over the streamlining of the Index. I actually prefer the Indexes myself, but I'm a clear minority there. But the point is, Codexes are clearly different from the Indexes. Because they're bigger. They have a lot more stuff. So fitting that many Indexes in a book does not support fitting that many Codexes in a book at all. The point is only being ignored because it's indefensible. If anything, the Indexes being put in shared books because they were so streamlined *enhances* the point about such a shared book being too big.

2. Then go to the Proposed Rules section and fix Crowe. I know you won't though and I will put money in that.

Funny how Crowe can't possibly be good because he's a cheaper, worse (per model) option than something else.
But the Serpent/Falcon are a cheaper/worse (per model) Repulsor, and the forums are spasming over how bad Repulsors are.

3. There is clearly a good amount of bloat. Just because it isn't at 7th edition levels doesn't mean it's clearly going to reach there. I mean, look at the frickin Chaos Knight codex.

Sure. Some things could be removed. But hopefully what gets removed is decided by cooler heads than yours or mine.

4. The Fliers REALLY are the same outside stupid minor differences and Strategems (which don't count for anything)

Aside from having different profiles, different weapons, etc? So in the same way that a Vanguard Vet and a Sternie are the same?

Furiosos are the same kinda-tough melee Dread that Ironclads are

So "Super angry blood-crazed dread" is the same as "armor-reinforced dread"? They're both hyper related, being Dread upgrades. They could be more similar. But when I look at the Ironclad and Furioso datasheets, their options aren't anything alike.

, and not even casual players are going to make a Deathwing squad that's 1 LC, 1 TH/SS, 1 Chainfist, 1 Assault Cannon, and 1 Power Sword Sarge.

I've seen such mixed Deathwing squads. It happens. So not factually true.

Know why? It's stupid. It's literally stupidity.

Or maybe they liked the look. Or maybe they use them differently. I'll agree it's certainly off-meta, and most likely not tactically ideal. But those are not the only reasons to do things.

Just because someone makes a different decision than you, that doesn't make it a bad decision.
Even worse, just because someone has different interests or priorities than you, that doesn't make their interests and priorities irrelevant.

And please stop abusing the word 'literally'. It's bad enough that it now means both it's original meaning and it's exact opposite. But neither are appropriate there.

1. See my above outline of how a codex could be done in this way.
2. I already explained how making Crowe cheaper than the generic version breaks the tenants of what makes a Special Character special at all since the dawn of them actually existing. That has literally nothing to do with your precious Eldar and a generic option vs generic option. Like, really. You couldn't grasp that at all?
3. Everyone knows that the Chaos Knight codex shouldn't exist as is. Look at how little it has in content. At most you need 1 page in the main Knight codex to explain how switching keywords makes them enemies of the Imperium and we can give you 5 pages of fluff on how they go Renegade or chaotic sometimes.
Hell we can give a page in the Marine codex to do the same thing to actually represent Renegades too. I've been saying that for a while that, as is, Renegades make no sense because the moment they go Renegade they get Autocannon Havocs and lose Drop Pods.
4. They fill the same exact roles though is the key. Stormhawk has the Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, and Stormcannon. The Nephilim has the Megabolter (almost the same exact stats as the Twin Assault Cannon, look at that!), the Twin Heavy Bolter, and the two missiles thing (which is functionally the same as the Icarus or Lastalon or takes). At that point, what's the point in pretending they're that different? They really aren't. The proxy works fine and you lost none of your models. How cool is that? Yeah the other flier can probably stay unique though.
5. Seeing as they both have everything in common outside the T7-8 (and I'm 100% in the know they had the same AV13, which is bizarre that didn't become even) yeah I can say they can safely become the same entry. Blood Talon can be the Dread Chainfist for stats easily.
The "Blood Crazed" one you're thinking of is the Death Company Dread. Sure that's it's own unique thing, that can stay.
6. Some kid putting together a bunch of models with no thought behind how they function doesn't count, especially because they aren't going to do anything except be used in a Soace Hulk game. It isn't even off meta (which isn't even an excusable defense in this instance). It has no purpose whatsoever, at all. So please don't act like it does. It doesn't even LOOK good on a table.
7. No, it IS a stupid decision unless you're using the models for Space Hulk.


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 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

Yeah I know. My layout of a consolidated Marine codex is perfectly reasonable and they won't even listen to which units should be consolidated. I mean, there's no way they'd argue Land Raiders should all still be separate entries instead of just one where you buy the guns on the chassis, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Except Marines need to be consolidated as 95% of everything is shared. There's no point outside you just wanting to feel special when you honestly aren't. The Angels especially don't have enough deviation from organization that it even makes sense to pretend they need a separate codex to be represented, especially when a lot of the unique stuff is hardly unique. The Dark Angels fliers are easily the biggest offender.

The Flyers - like the stasis bomb for Fallen Hunting. Their entire second company including the Talonmaster. Inner Circle. My hopes for a return of the Ravenwing Squadron of 6 bikes, an attack bike, and a speeder for a cool 10 man squad that works numerically, and is rather different. The Death Company. Sanguinary Guard. Libby Dreads, Furioso Dreads - which probably should be all chapters given their cross over in the video games and the cross over of CCW focused characters i.e. Shrike, Lysander, etc.- Baal Predator, The two support Land Speeders. Plus the unique space wolf stuff, plus the unique Space Marine stuff - Victrix/Honor guard, Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons.

Yup, 95% shared DEFINITELY checks out.