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2019/08/01 01:55:06
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/01 01:59:43
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.
Sorry if I came across that way, but I'm not saying most space marine players want this. I'm saying that most of the people who do want the marines folded together are generic space marine players.
2019/08/01 02:04:18
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.
They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.
As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.
Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.
Sorry if I came across that way, but I'm not saying most space marine players want this. I'm saying that most of the people who do want the marines folded together are generic space marine players.
In my experiance a lot aren't even space Marine players. a Lot of the loudest voices are disgruntled Xenos fans who think they'll magicly see more releases for them
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/01 02:46:10
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?
My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex. Add. Not take away. Because some people would love that Biel Tan or Snakebite Dex, and those who didn't could choose not to buy it. You complain about so many books without realizing that some factions would give an arm and a leg for your burden of choice. I told you I've been waiting 15 years for new sisters, and ya know what? If they dropped one dex for each Order and seventh for the Ecclesiarchy with unique HQ's and vehicle variants and specialist units, I'd buy every last item on the last and consider it the greatest thing to happen to the hobby since 1987.
If dexes get combined, options will be lost- certainly not all of them, and the ones that do get lost may not seem important to you, but I don't think you can credibly say there would not be a loss of options. Conversely you can already play the army you want with the rules you have, because you're allowed to take a blood angels detachment and a dark angels detachment and a space wolves detachment all in the same army, and you can also decide not to field the units that you consider unnecessary, ineffective or redundant. Granted, it does take multiple books, but it can at least be done.
In other words, status quo = everybody wins vs change = some people marginally happier and others devastated, invalidated, angry or merely indifferent.
Let me reiterate: this game is more than its rules, and you'd be destroying an unbroken 40 year legacy.
Game is indeed more than rules. And no one is suggesting taking away the background of the different chapters.
But I imagine that there are at least 15-20 pages of background in each of the dexes; if you combine all of them and then combine that with the generic material the book would be massive. They would have to cut some of the background out. I know you are not asking for that to happen directly, but you must understand that it would have to happen as a natural consequence of combining dexes. I mean, the whole premise of the death company is that it's a genetic failure in the geneseed, so how do you really suggest giving the ultramarines the option of having a death company while simultaneously claiming that you don't want to lose or alter the background?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 02:52:59
2019/08/01 02:48:41
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
PenitentJake wrote: But again, fix the problem by powering up the weak ones, not nerfing the good ones. Jeez, why is it always take away and never give more?
Combining the codices actually means giving everybody more options.
No one wants to pay $150 for a codex, hell no one wants to pay the $50 now.
And he's not talking about giving more options by throwing more stuff at people, he's talking about making existing options more relevant by bringing them more inline with the better units power wise.
2019/08/01 03:06:36
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.
Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.
Neither of these things are true..
I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.
It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.
You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/08/01 04:33:50
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.
They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.
As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.
Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.
Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that
Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.
Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?
My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.
We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 04:35:52
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/01 04:37:21
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.
It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/01 05:27:18
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, even though I know it is going to annoy some people - each of the original 18 should end up with their own 'dex (including any material for known Successors), with Codex: Adeptus Astartes and Codex: CSM becoming the Ultramarines and Black Legion books respectively. Not sure if that means Renegade SM need their own book, admittedly.
Also, holding pricing the same from book to book needs looking at, as depending on the focus of the army and the options available, unit costs may need to vary.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2019/08/01 05:31:22
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I don’t think it would be a half-bad idea to have all the unique named characters in a special expansion. This makes them not a part of the regular game. Perhaps either a full special characters book with all the factions in it, or faction specific like Space Marine Character or Necron Characters. At the smaller size, it could be a free digital asset.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 05:32:26
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
2019/08/01 06:06:03
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Sir Fred wrote:One thing I’ve noticed is players who want all chapters rolled into codex tend to be disgruntled have lots of salty issues.
Mmmpi wrote:They also seem to have an unrealistic expectation that this will somehow mean fewer marine players.
Neither of these things are true..
I don't care who plays what army. I don't care if 90% of the players are SM and I have no salty issues.
It just makes more sense to put them all in one dex. The special units can be there just like the Black Templars special units are there. The units that don't have enough about them to be worth being special can be folded into the normal datasheets and get their special bits and paint schemes. Nobody is suggesting to wipe out the chapters. They are only saying it's dumb that they get their own book so that idiotic gak like the things that started this thread have to be done for them.
You want the price to stay down? Well GW released all the datasheets for Apoc for free. Just like they did for AoS. Expect 9th to do the same. If you want to send the money on the big fat book at that point so you can read the same dozen stories about your dudes again then thats on you.
Congratulations on being a special snowflake who doesn't match up with the majority of people who make the complaint. Do you want a cookie?
It makes sense until you realize you'd have a 200 page tomb just counting the units.
Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.
They are BA equivalent and there is really no reason for BA to be the only chapter that can give their HG jump packs. I'm sure Raven Guard would like to do that as well for example.
As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.
Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.
Bingo. So in the case of eliminating Crowe:
1. Ends up with a generic CCW instead of an actual weapon, making him worse against several targets even with his exploding hits
2. Has the same useless Smite as Purifiers
3. Doesn't make Purifiers into Troops anymore
4. Was made cheaper than a generic Champ and is still not looked at as a choice
5. Honestly he hasn't had much a role outside the Purifier troops since they eliminated that
Ergo there's no point to him existing. The model can be used as an actual Champ instead and with better results.
[
Nevermind the fact that Crowe has more than just a relic. You just keep beating that horse though.
Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?
My point exactly. I'm saying make the Biel Tan Dex, Make the Snakebite Dex.
We absolutely need to eliminate the bloat, not add. GW already did a crap job with those Craftworld and Klan rules in the first place and you want them to ADD?
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.
It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.
A 200-300 page hardcover book wouldn't be cheap. Unless you're planning on reducing five armies to nothing but paint schemes.
Oh wait...you are.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 06:11:07
2019/08/01 06:16:09
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
@Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 06:18:37
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/08/01 06:22:36
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Lance845 wrote: @Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.
Said index was also missing fluff, paint guides, almost all of the army wide stratagems, special rules, half the psychic powers, and a few other things I'm not remembering.
Add those in to the book, and you're looking at tripling it's size.
2019/08/01 06:27:32
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Lance845 wrote: @Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.
Said index was also missing fluff, paint guides, almost all of the army wide stratagems, special rules, half the psychic powers, and a few other things I'm not remembering.
Add those in to the book, and you're looking at tripling it's size.
1) You don't need painting guides in the book. Painting guides are everywhere for free including GWs own website.
2) You don't need the fluff. The fluff is all over the place for free including GWs own website.
3) Army wide strategems take up 2 pages each. So 8 more pages. Psycihc power and relics take up 1 page. So 4 more pages max. +12 pages to the index page count - all the datasheets for the armies I said wouldn't even be included. You have a cheaper book with all the rules and none of the garbage getting in the way of the rules. Of course since it's GW they will add another 50 pages of splash pages showing you models as what amounts to an ad for their products right in the middle of the rules content making the book less easy to use. But thats just how GW does things. Not how a good RULES book should be made.
Tripling it's size my ass. Stop catastrophizing. You undermine your own arguments by blowing everything wildly out of proportion.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 06:30:10
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/08/01 06:50:00
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Lance845 wrote: @Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.
Said index was also missing fluff, paint guides, almost all of the army wide stratagems, special rules, half the psychic powers, and a few other things I'm not remembering.
Add those in to the book, and you're looking at tripling it's size.
1) You don't need painting guides in the book. Painting guides are everywhere for free including GWs own website.
2) You don't need the fluff. The fluff is all over the place for free including GWs own website.
3) Army wide strategems take up 2 pages each. So 8 more pages. Psycihc power and relics take up 1 page. So 4 more pages max. +12 pages to the index page count - all the datasheets for the armies I said wouldn't even be included. You have a cheaper book with all the rules and none of the garbage getting in the way of the rules. Of course since it's GW they will add another 50 pages of splash pages showing you models as what amounts to an ad for their products right in the middle of the rules content making the book less easy to use. But thats just how GW does things. Not how a good RULES book should be made.
Tripling it's size my ass. Stop catastrophizing. You undermine your own arguments by blowing everything wildly out of proportion.
Not everyone has internet access and showing painted models in the book is helpful.
You do need the fluff, it's the biggest draw for most people for why they pick their army. Again, not everyone has internet access.
Don't forget that there are four armies being put into this. So one page for the generic ones, one page for the 'codex' marines chapter stratagems, and one page each for BA/DA?SW. One page each for each school of powers, one page each for each set of relics, plus one for codex chapter relics, three to six pages each for units particular to BA/DA/SW. At least a page to list what they don't get, each. At least a page, probably two for their special rules, again, each. 3 pages for special characters for each. That's 39 pages. That's not including any art, fluff, or model examples.
So that by itself is almost doubling the size of the book.
And that's with me probably underestimating it.
YAY MATH!
2019/08/01 07:05:49
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Lance845 wrote: @Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.
Said index was also missing fluff, paint guides, almost all of the army wide stratagems, special rules, half the psychic powers, and a few other things I'm not remembering.
Add those in to the book, and you're looking at tripling it's size.
1) You don't need painting guides in the book. Painting guides are everywhere for free including GWs own website.
2) You don't need the fluff. The fluff is all over the place for free including GWs own website.
3) Army wide strategems take up 2 pages each. So 8 more pages. Psycihc power and relics take up 1 page. So 4 more pages max. +12 pages to the index page count - all the datasheets for the armies I said wouldn't even be included. You have a cheaper book with all the rules and none of the garbage getting in the way of the rules. Of course since it's GW they will add another 50 pages of splash pages showing you models as what amounts to an ad for their products right in the middle of the rules content making the book less easy to use. But thats just how GW does things. Not how a good RULES book should be made.
Tripling it's size my ass. Stop catastrophizing. You undermine your own arguments by blowing everything wildly out of proportion.
Not everyone has internet access and showing painted models in the book is helpful. You do need the fluff, it's the biggest draw for most people for why they pick their army. Again, not everyone has internet access. Don't forget that there are four armies being put into this. So one page for the generic ones, one page for the 'codex' marines chapter stratagems, and one page each for BA/DA?SW. One page each for each school of powers, one page each for each set of relics, plus one for codex chapter relics, three to six pages each for units particular to BA/DA/SW. At least a page to list what they don't get, each. At least a page, probably two for their special rules, again, each. 3 pages for special characters for each. That's 39 pages. That's not including any art, fluff, or model examples.
So that by itself is almost doubling the size of the book. And that's with me probably underestimating it.
YAY MATH!
Then show some painted models. Showing some painted models is not painting guides. Hey guess what? GW used to sell whole books that were nothing but painting guides. Buy those.
You don't need the fluff. You don't BUY the codex to find out about the army you picked. You already read up about the army before you picked up the codex to buy it. Or did you really drop 50.00 on a complete unknown in the hopes that you would end up liking the stories and pictures? Also, no. Not MOST people. Don't assume anything about MOST peoples motivations without some solid data to back it up. You don't have anything to show that 51%+ of all players buy their codex and pick their armies because of fluff. And you DEFINITELY don't have anything to show us that says those players need that fluff in the codex to justify buying the shrink wrapped books to find out if they like the fluff.
6 powers do not take up an entire page.
Look at the index. 1 Page to list all the units they get from the whole single book and their special rules. 1 page for relics and psychic powers. MAYBE needing 1 more page for warlord traits but probably not. Again, you don't need the sheer volume of pictures and you don't need to reprint the land raiders 4 times. 1 datasheet for each variant probably on 2 pages with a single picture of a land raider will do, if that. The Nid codex has 2 pages as 1 big splash image with all the units with a little number next to them. Then at the bottom it lists which units are what by those numbers. It takes up minimal real estate and lets everyone know what everything is.
You want the book to be compact and cost less? Stop filling it with bs. Then you have room for the rules in a more easily digestible format that makes everything easier to find.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 07:12:44
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/08/01 07:21:54
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Lance845 wrote: @Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.
Said index was also missing fluff, paint guides, almost all of the army wide stratagems, special rules, half the psychic powers, and a few other things I'm not remembering.
Add those in to the book, and you're looking at tripling it's size.
1) You don't need painting guides in the book. Painting guides are everywhere for free including GWs own website.
2) You don't need the fluff. The fluff is all over the place for free including GWs own website.
3) Army wide strategems take up 2 pages each. So 8 more pages. Psycihc power and relics take up 1 page. So 4 more pages max. +12 pages to the index page count - all the datasheets for the armies I said wouldn't even be included. You have a cheaper book with all the rules and none of the garbage getting in the way of the rules. Of course since it's GW they will add another 50 pages of splash pages showing you models as what amounts to an ad for their products right in the middle of the rules content making the book less easy to use. But thats just how GW does things. Not how a good RULES book should be made.
Tripling it's size my ass. Stop catastrophizing. You undermine your own arguments by blowing everything wildly out of proportion.
Not everyone has internet access and showing painted models in the book is helpful.
You do need the fluff, it's the biggest draw for most people for why they pick their army. Again, not everyone has internet access.
Don't forget that there are four armies being put into this. So one page for the generic ones, one page for the 'codex' marines chapter stratagems, and one page each for BA/DA?SW. One page each for each school of powers, one page each for each set of relics, plus one for codex chapter relics, three to six pages each for units particular to BA/DA/SW. At least a page to list what they don't get, each. At least a page, probably two for their special rules, again, each. 3 pages for special characters for each. That's 39 pages. That's not including any art, fluff, or model examples.
So that by itself is almost doubling the size of the book.
And that's with me probably underestimating it.
YAY MATH!
Then show some painted models. Showing some painted models is not painting guides. Hey guess what? GW used to sell whole books that were nothing but painting guides. Buy those.
You don't need the fluff. You don't BUY the codex to find out about the army you picked. You already read up about the army before you picked up the codex to buy it. Or did you really drop 50.00 on a complete unknown in the hopes that you would end up liking the stories and pictures? Also, no. Not MOST people. Don't assume anything about MOST peoples motivations without some solid data to back it up. You don't have anything to show that 51%+ of all players buy their codex and pick their armies because of fluff. And you DEFINITELY don't have anything to show us that says those players need that fluff in the codex to justify buying the shrink wrapped books to find out if they like the fluff.
6 powers do not take up an entire page.
Look at the index. 1 Page to list all the units they get from the whole single book and their special rules. 1 page for relics and psychic powers. MAYBE needing 1 more page for warlord traits but probably not. Again, you don't need the sheer volume of pictures and you don't need to reprint the land raiders 4 times. 1 datasheet for each variant probably on 2 pages with a single picture of a land raider will do, if that. The Nid codex has 2 pages as 1 big splash image with all the units with a little number next to them. Then at the bottom it lists which units are what by those numbers. It takes up minimal real estate and lets everyone know what everything is.
You want the book to be compact and cost less? Stop filling it with bs. Then you have room for the rules in a more easily digestible format that makes everything easier to find.
My mistake for originally calling the model pictures paint guides. Guess what? They've been part of every codex since there were codex. They serve a useful purpose.
You don't need the fluff. People do buy the codex for the fluff as well as the army rules, even if you don't. Most people read about a paragraph, assuming they weren't just told stuff by a friend. That's different than what is usually put into the codex. Some people do. Some people do their research and find the extra stuff in said codex to be fun/useful to them. Some people buy based on a recomendation. SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE INTERNET ACCESS. You don't have anything to show they don't. Good thing many stores have open copies of said codex.
They do when presented with art and any necessary rules. 1 page per school is about average for GW.
I own all of them. I was counting exactly that page. One per army in the codex. One page per army for relics, plus generic army relics for generic armies, plus one for the generic chapters like Ultramarines. Good thing I only counted each LR variant once. Assuming two data sheets per page, it takes at least four pages for just the Blood Angels unique units. Whoops! I had only estimated three pages for them before. Now we're up to +40 pages. The Nid Codex only has one army in it.
I never said I want the book to be compact and cost less. I want armies that only have passing relationships to other armies to not be in the same book at all.
edit: those blood angels pages aren't counting special characters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 07:23:32
2019/08/01 07:28:55
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Lance845 wrote: @Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.
Said index was also missing fluff, paint guides, almost all of the army wide stratagems, special rules, half the psychic powers, and a few other things I'm not remembering.
Add those in to the book, and you're looking at tripling it's size.
1) You don't need painting guides in the book. Painting guides are everywhere for free including GWs own website.
2) You don't need the fluff. The fluff is all over the place for free including GWs own website.
3) Army wide strategems take up 2 pages each. So 8 more pages. Psycihc power and relics take up 1 page. So 4 more pages max. +12 pages to the index page count - all the datasheets for the armies I said wouldn't even be included. You have a cheaper book with all the rules and none of the garbage getting in the way of the rules. Of course since it's GW they will add another 50 pages of splash pages showing you models as what amounts to an ad for their products right in the middle of the rules content making the book less easy to use. But thats just how GW does things. Not how a good RULES book should be made.
Tripling it's size my ass. Stop catastrophizing. You undermine your own arguments by blowing everything wildly out of proportion.
Not everyone has internet access and showing painted models in the book is helpful. You do need the fluff, it's the biggest draw for most people for why they pick their army. Again, not everyone has internet access. Don't forget that there are four armies being put into this. So one page for the generic ones, one page for the 'codex' marines chapter stratagems, and one page each for BA/DA?SW. One page each for each school of powers, one page each for each set of relics, plus one for codex chapter relics, three to six pages each for units particular to BA/DA/SW. At least a page to list what they don't get, each. At least a page, probably two for their special rules, again, each. 3 pages for special characters for each. That's 39 pages. That's not including any art, fluff, or model examples.
So that by itself is almost doubling the size of the book. And that's with me probably underestimating it.
YAY MATH!
Then show some painted models. Showing some painted models is not painting guides. Hey guess what? GW used to sell whole books that were nothing but painting guides. Buy those.
You don't need the fluff. You don't BUY the codex to find out about the army you picked. You already read up about the army before you picked up the codex to buy it. Or did you really drop 50.00 on a complete unknown in the hopes that you would end up liking the stories and pictures? Also, no. Not MOST people. Don't assume anything about MOST peoples motivations without some solid data to back it up. You don't have anything to show that 51%+ of all players buy their codex and pick their armies because of fluff. And you DEFINITELY don't have anything to show us that says those players need that fluff in the codex to justify buying the shrink wrapped books to find out if they like the fluff.
6 powers do not take up an entire page.
Look at the index. 1 Page to list all the units they get from the whole single book and their special rules. 1 page for relics and psychic powers. MAYBE needing 1 more page for warlord traits but probably not. Again, you don't need the sheer volume of pictures and you don't need to reprint the land raiders 4 times. 1 datasheet for each variant probably on 2 pages with a single picture of a land raider will do, if that. The Nid codex has 2 pages as 1 big splash image with all the units with a little number next to them. Then at the bottom it lists which units are what by those numbers. It takes up minimal real estate and lets everyone know what everything is.
You want the book to be compact and cost less? Stop filling it with bs. Then you have room for the rules in a more easily digestible format that makes everything easier to find.
My mistake for originally calling the model pictures paint guides. Guess what? They've been part of every codex since there were codex. They serve a useful purpose.
Yeah. Ads for GW product.
You don't need the fluff. People do buy the codex for the fluff as well as the army rules, even if you don't. Most people read about a paragraph, assuming they weren't just told stuff by a friend. That's different than what is usually put into the codex. Some people do. Some people do their research and find the extra stuff in said codex to be fun/useful to them. Some people buy based on a recomendation. SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE INTERNET ACCESS. You don't have anything to show they don't. Good thing many stores have open copies of said codex.
No, YOU don't NEED it either. You might LIKE it. But you don't NEED it. I don't have anything to show. But then, I am not making claims about what motivates MOST people. Or what MANY stores do or don't do. I can speak to the experiences I have had. Of the 5 local stores that sell GW product 1 has had SOME codexes open. Not all. Again, did you spend 50.00 on your codex without knowing about the army first?
They do when presented with art and any necessary rules. 1 page per school is about average for GW.
I own all of them. I was counting exactly that page. One per army in the codex. One page per army for relics, plus generic army relics for generic armies, plus one for the generic chapters like Ultramarines. Good thing I only counted each LR variant once. Assuming two data sheets per page, it takes at least four pages for just the Blood Angels unique units. Whoops! I had only estimated three pages for them before. Now we're up to +40 pages. The Nid Codex only has one army in it.
Hey guy, EVERY unique unit for the BA is in the index. The index is less than 200 pages with MORE armies then I am saying go in the SM dex. ALL the unique datasheets fit in there nice and snug.
I never said I want the book to be compact and cost less. I want armies that only have passing relationships to other armies to not be in the same book at all.
edit: those blood angels pages aren't counting special characters.
You certainly seemed upset about it getting bigger and costing more. When 80-90% of your army shares all the same units with the other army it's not a passing relationship. They are the same army. GSC and Tyranids share 1 unit. Thats it. 1. That is a passing relationship. BA, DA, and SM share more or less everything. Not including unique characters (which each chapter in the SM book has anyway) the BA, DA and SW have less than 10 unique units. When the army is comprised of more like... 6 times as many non unique character datasheets that's nothing. Again, BT have THEIR unique units in the dex. The rest can do the same.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 07:34:19
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/08/01 07:38:15
Subject: Re:A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Nope, painted models of everything in the codex. You know, so new players know what they look like. And before you say it: SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE INTERNET ACCESS.
No, YOU don't NEED it either. You might LIKE it. But you don't NEED it. I dn't have anything to show. But then, I am not making claims about what motivates MOST people. Or what MANY stores do or don't do. I can speak to the experiences I have had. Of the 5 local stores that sell GW product 1 has had SOME codexes open. Not all. Again, did you spend 50.00 on your codex without knowing about the army first?
I certainly don't need it. A brand new player likely does. And yes, you claim we don't need it, and yet have shown nothing to prove it. Well guess what? You made the claim first, so get those stats out.
That's nice about your stores. That doesn't invalidate my claim. I didn't. But then: SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE INTERNET ACCESS.
Hey guy, EVERY unique unit for the BA is in the index. The index is less than 200 pages with MORE armies then I am saying go in the SM dex. ALL the unique datasheets fit in there nice and snug.
Hey, they've been expanded somewhat in the actual codex, and in the index still take far more than four pages. Said index also doesn't include painted model displays (not paint guides), fluff, special rules, most of the psychic powers, any stratagems, chapter traits, relics, ext. But we've been over this. If you like the index, keep using the index. Most of us actually like the codexi.
You certainly seemed upset about it getting bigger and costing more. When 80-90% of your army shares all the same units with the other army it's not a passing relationship. They are the same army.
I don't want the book to get bigger and cost more, because it will. More like share 30-50% of the same units, and yes: a passing relationship. They very much are not the same army. I'd rather pay $50 twice, than $180 once.
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You certainly seemed upset about it getting bigger and costing more. When 80-90% of your army shares all the same units with the other army it's not a passing relationship. They are the same army. GSC and Tyranids share 1 unit. Thats it. 1. That is a passing relationship. BA, DA, and SM share more or less everything. Not including unique characters (which each chapter in the SM book has anyway) the BA, DA and SW have less than 10 unique units. When the army is comprised of more like... 6 times as many non unique character datasheets that's nothing. Again, BT have THEIR unique units in the dex. The rest can do the same.
Because you edited your post.
10 unique units (not counting special characters) is still five pages. Each. Then you have the units that aren't in each army, which means if you're playing DA, (for example) are just a waste of space.
Black templar have one unique unit, again, not counting special characters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 07:40:56
2019/08/01 07:42:37
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.
It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.
the space Marine Codex is already over three hundred pages. I've told you that at a conservitive estimate rolling DAs and BAs into the Space Marine codex will add another 20-30 pages. and realisticly it'll proably be closer to another 40 pages, GW WILL raise the price. and the price of codex space marines is already kinda high. Yes they could cut that down if they removed all fluff, all characters and all the art. but I consider the games soul not worth the price. Maybe someone whose only intreasted in the game and doesn't care about the other aspects of the hobby might disagree. but the fluff and art? IMHO are the heart and soul of 40k
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 07:46:04
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/01 07:45:25
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
you kidding? I play generic space Marines and thats the LAST thing I want. I don't play Dark Angels, why would I want to pay an additional 20 bucks to shove a buncha rules I don't want in my codex? Hell I think it's a shame black templars where folded into codex space marines, especially in light of the massive explosion of new codices we saw shortly afterwards. I'd be all for Black Templars getting their codex back.
It isn't 20$ extra. You keep acting like it'll turn the codex into a phonebook or something.
the space Marine Codex is already over three hundred pages. I've told you that at a conservitive estimate rolling DAs and BAs into the Space Marine codex will add another 20-30 pages. and realisticly it'll proably be closer to another 40 pages, GW WILL raise the price. and the price of codex space marines is already kinda high
My estimate is 30 pages with no model pictures, art, or fluff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 07:46:26
