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2019/07/31 16:46:01
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm also for making Relics bought instead of how they are now. Wanna know why the Castellan is overpowered? Because it gets a super weapon for FREE and it has to be costed as though it's taking it for terms of nerfing it. Then if you don't take Wrath you're buying a bad unit.
Yes, absolutely. Relics not costing points was always a terrible idea.
Especially with how the AP system on weapons works now too, that you could in theory price a relic weapon that it isn't autotake but you might want to anyway. YEAH the Spartean was hot garbage in 7th, but now it makes sense as a 4 point weapon or so.
I'm also not a fan of only one relic per character as, if someone places all their eggs in one basket, that's on them. A Chapter Master copying Rogal Dorn with the Spartean/Primarchs Wrath and Teeth of Terra is reasonable to me and doesn't break anything.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/07/31 19:54:29
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Okay, so I didn't read all of this thread as closely as I usually do before I post, because I don't play space marines. But I have to jump in on some of this, because I think there are a lot of things that people are overlooking.
Anything in the vanilla SM book should be able to be taken by any of the special independent dex marines, but it doesn't go in reverse. Vanilla Marines can't have Fenris Wolves or the Ravenwing or Death Companies. For that reason, separate dexes do make sense, whether you like them or not. If you are suggesting that independent dexes lose their special units and rules so that they fit into one book, I would expect that a lot of BA, DA, SW players would be very upset with you.
Again, some of you don't think these units are important because maybe they don't win tournaments; I get that, but I'm not sure if you get the fact that there is way more to 40k than tournaments.
As for Deathwatch and Greyknights they are and always have been the chambers militant of the Xenos and Malleus respectively. They always will be. And that DOES absolutely mean that they work FOR the Inquisition.
Other chapters may be said to more accurately work WITH the Inquisition (and even that is debatable), but not these two.
Please note as well that because GW has gone to such great lengths to differentiate between radicals and monodominants and all the other political divisions within the Inquisition, we need to differentiate between the authority of an Inquisitor and the authority of the Inquisition.
An Inquisitor's request can be denied, possibly even by their chamber militant. The Inquisition, however, is arguably the greatest voice of authority in the Imperium, and denying a request from the organization as a whole has the capacity to get your entire planet exterminated. Even the High Lords of Terra are subject to the authority of the Inquisition.
When the Imperial Agents dex drops, and I suspect we will get one, it should clear a lot of this up.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/31 20:01:21
2019/07/31 20:03:14
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
PenitentJake wrote: Okay, so I didn't read all of this thread as closely as I usually do before I post, because I don't play space marines. But I have to jump in on some of this, because I think there are a lot of things that people are overlooking.
Anything in the vanilla SM book should be able to be taken by any of the special independent dex marines, but it doesn't go in reverse. Vanilla Marines can't have Fenris Wolves or the Ravenwing or Death Companies. For that reason, separate dexes do make sense, whether you like them or not. If you are suggesting that independent dexes lose their special units and rules so that they fit into one book, I would expect that a lot of BA, DA, SW players would be very upset with you.
Again, some of you don't think these units are important because maybe they don't win tournaments; I get that, but I'm not sure if you get the fact that there is way more to 40k than tournaments.
As for Deathwatch and Greyknights they are and always have been the chambers militant of the Xenos and Malleus respectively. They always will be. And that DOES absolutely mean that they work FOR the Inquisition.
Other chapters may be said to more accurately work WITH the Inquisition (and even that is debatable), but not these two.
Please note as well that because GW has gone to such great lengths to differentiate between radicals and monodominants and all the other political divisions within the Inquisition, we need to differentiate between the authority of an Inquisitor and the authority of the Inquisition.
An Inquisitor's request can be denied, possibly even by their chamber militant. The Inquisition, however, is arguably the greatest voice of authority in the Imperium, and denying a request from the organization as a whole has the capacity to get your entire planet exterminated. Even the High Lords of Terra are subject to the authority of the Inquisition.
When the Imperial Agents dex drops, and I suspect we will get one, it should clear a lot of this up.
A lot of those "special units" aren't actually special outside the case of Space Wolves. Blood and Dark Angels can be safely consolidated.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/07/31 20:19:29
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Darkshroud? Lieutenant Land Speeders? Dark Talons? Deathwing Knights? Deathwing characters that other chapters don't have equivalents of?
And I assume you aren't counting named characters, but still there's loads of them and most of them are pretty unique. 5++ aura, +1 attack aura, jet bike.
You'd throw that all away just to make things a bit tidier? Ridiculous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/31 20:20:00
2019/07/31 20:29:23
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'm also not a fan of only one relic per character as, if someone places all their eggs in one basket, that's on them. A Chapter Master copying Rogal Dorn with the Spartean/Primarchs Wrath and Teeth of Terra is reasonable to me and doesn't break anything.
Except when you get to knight relics. The rules of unintended consequences also apply.
2019/07/31 21:01:13
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm also for making Relics bought instead of how they are now. Wanna know why the Castellan is overpowered? Because it gets a super weapon for FREE and it has to be costed as though it's taking it for terms of nerfing it. Then if you don't take Wrath you're buying a bad unit.
Yes, absolutely. Relics not costing points was always a terrible idea.
relics IMHO would be a lot more intreasting if they removed WEAPONS from it, if what you had was a choice of a 2+ suit of armor or some random tidbids that enhanced an aspect of the model (like extending it's aura etc) it'd be a lot more intreasting and proably fairer
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/07/31 21:34:05
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Stux wrote: Darkshroud? Lieutenant Land Speeders? Dark Talons?
Give them to everyone, or merge it with a current Sheet, ie the Dark Talon.
Deathwing Knights?
Give the Chapters a Unit or Two Unique to them? Give more chapters "Veteran" Terminators?
Deathwing characters that other chapters don't have equivalents of?
The one Deathwing Character? Keep a couple of the Special Characters for each Chapter. Merge the basics, keep the truly unique. Drop some characters to make Generic Versions available to everyone.
2019/07/31 21:40:19
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Put BA, DA, SW into C:SM, since you can edit SM squads a bit to fit most of them well enough. Sanguinary Guard can be sorted by giving Honor Guard the option to buy Jump Packs and Relic Blades, DA, give Assault Terminators special rules for all stormshield squads and the option to buy power maces, etc. give bikes the option to buy TL Plasma Guns...
Keep a few of the more unique units as Chapter Specific, like how the terminus ultra is (IE, the DA Land Speeder) while giving some of the other things that would make sense in other chapters (Baal Preds, Librarian Dreads) to everyone. I'd love a Librarian Dread or the option for an HQ dread in C:SM outside of FW.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2019/07/31 21:58:59
Subject: Re:A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
So.. show of hands here Space Marine players.. whom here would pay 80 bucks for a codex? people are already saying the Codices are too expensive, and consolidating the dark angels and blood angels codices would only expand this.
Let's assume for a minute that GW does this, dark angel;s and blood angles are given the 3 pages of fluff and sucessor chapters every other chapter in the book is given.
Let's assume that every character has a fluff entry in the codex, and let's assume 2 datasheets a page.
you're looking at adding somewhere in the ballpark of 25 pages to the codex from just HQs etc before adding any units.
Now beyond this blood angels could proably manage fine with Sanguigary guard being rolled into Honorguard. And Death Company could even be reduced to a strat (which might be seen as "meh" at first until blood angels realize they can start tossing out death company sanguigary guard and stuff)
Dark Angels might need some consolidation of their deathwing and ravenwing stuff so IMHO they'd risk losing more.
So basicly it could be done but the result would be a massive and expensive codex, that'd likely have a ton of exceptions etc in the rules.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/07/31 22:05:54
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
“Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need to be consolidated into a single Inquisition codex. There's honestly not that many entries that it can't be done. Hell I'm pretty sure the Tyranid codex would only be slightly smaller based on the entries themselves.”
Make sure to send GW a letter with this little gem.
2019/07/31 22:24:29
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
BroodSpawn wrote: You'd also be invalidating people's purchases by doing that kind of consolidation
or you'd have a 80 dollar plus phone book sized codex. neither of which is desirable.
It's why IMHO most of the people calling for consolidation proably don't actually play the armies in question.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/31 22:25:03
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/07/31 22:39:04
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hardly. The Grey Knight codex is maybe 20~, give or take. Remove the entries that don't matter (nobody is going to miss Crowe or the obviously imbalanced GMDreadknight) and that's pretty easy. Deathwatch only look flooded in entries because of the addition of Primaris units. Otherwise they share a bunch of datasheets themselves from the vehicles.
So, it's another case of you thinking something is gak, so it has to go. Nevermind the fact that people use them.
It's still three codex worth of separate armies you're trying to cram together, simply on the grounds of some weird feeling of superiority.
Crowe has bad fluff and bad rules and shouldn't exist in general. I'm for getting rid of Dreadknight GMs because of the huge imbalance they cause against the entry of the regular Dreadknight.
It isn't some feeling superiority. It's for practicality. Practicality dictates that the Inquisition and the military forces associated with them be in one comprehensive codex.
So he needs his rules fixed. Just because you're smug in your not using him doesn't mean he should be removed. Practicality dictates that armies that have vastly separate rules, should be in separate codexes. So yes, it's you feeling that since you don't use them, they need to go.
Same as it's always been for your contributions to these posts.
Martel732 wrote: Or just get rid of DW. Because they are a dumb power fantasy.
Dawn take you.
yup because deathwatch don't have a fairly rich background dating back 20 years or so with multiple apperances in fluff, a RPG and all sorts of other things. nope they're just some dumb power fantasy.
Something can be a stupid power fantasy for 20 years. And have multiple sources indulge it. God forbid someone criticize GWs excessive use of power armor factions.
OR they go into a Inquisition codex and we remove the stuff that they don't really need (although being so Elite with not as many options it wouldn't be as big a cleanup. Getting rid of the Corvus entry and making them use the Stormraven would definitely save some room).
Or we can just keep DW/GK/SoB separate because outside of a piece of fluff, have never been part of each other, or worked together as a general force for oh...all of their existence. Nevermind the fact that they have vastly different units from each other, vastly different rules, and vastly different wargear. This isn't like trying to cram DA/BA together, where at least 1/3 of their books are in common. And while generic primaris do make a chunk of the DW units, they don't exist in the other two armies you want to cram together.
No, Crowe just needs to go. He serves no purpose in existing outside the fluff being atrocious. I'm not smug, I'm just correct. Use the model as a generic Champ and you'll have much better results.
The "model" for the GM Dreadknight doesn't even exist, so that's not a problem in removing the entry. It's far too imbalanced in terms of execution and concept.
Sure, let's remove Tigarius from the space marines, he doesn't serve any purpose outisde of fluff. A regular librarian has access to the same powers.
Sorry dude, you're trying to gatekeep. Just because you like something doesn't mean it needs to go.
Rules imbalances can be fixed. Shocking, I know.
So yeah. You're smug. Not correct.
Tiggy at least costs more than a regular Librarian for what he does.
You do realize they made Crowe LOWER in cost than a regular Champ to make him still not as good as a regular Champ? A special character should NOT be cheaper than a generic option out of principle. Add in the terrible fluff and that adds to an entry and fluff piece that should've been deleted a long time ago.
Unless you can actually come up with a defense for Crowe besides "you're smug because you don't use him", he has no purpose in existing. Go.
Sure Crowe has bad rules. Doesn't mean remove him. It means fix him.
Granted I've said that for four posts now. You'd think you'd have picked up on that by now.
2019/07/31 22:58:36
Subject: Re:A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Crowe is IMHO an example of a character with CHARACTER. he's not just a "chapter master with some additional rules and more relics" he's got some intreasting character to him. and I agree I think what he needs is improved rules to really nail down this character.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/07/31 23:25:41
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
All marines can't all have access to everything. I mean, I know a lot of people are talking about marines being under powered lately, but giving everyone everything is not the solution.
Let me reiterate: this game is more than its rules, and you'd be destroying an unbroken 40 year legacy. Hey space marine players, wanna be just like every other space marine player?
As for the suggestion of putting all the chambers militant into a single book with their accompanying Inquisitors, hard no please, because now we are talking about my faction.
For starters, Sisters aren't just the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they are the standing army of the Ecclesiarchy, and that doesn't fit as tidily with the pattern. Each Ordo should have access to different henchmen- Jokaero make sense for Radical Ordo Xenos, but not so much Hereticus or Malleus; bound Daemons are for radical Malleus, etc. They need their own psychic disciplines; their own strats and relics...
Imperial Agents is absolutely the best way to go for the Inquisition. Each of the Ordos and all of their henchman, the Assassins, Sisters of Silence and maybe the Rogue Traders and Blackstone Heroes. That's a lot of units and a lot of pages. If your concern is that such a book would be light on content, believe me, it wouldn't be.
And if you give me less Sisters and Ecclesiarchy than I've got after I've been waiting for 15 years for what is now just around the corner... Well, I hope you can forgive my rather visceral disgust at the suggestion.
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people. There's an easy solution to too many options: don't like it, don't play it.
There is no solution to too few options.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who want a simplified, streamlined, perfectly balanced yet tactically rich game would be happier just buying infantry squads as pawns, vehicles as rooks, knights and bishops and super heavies for the king and queen and playing chess on an over sized board.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/31 23:26:15
2019/07/31 23:36:27
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?
Let me reiterate: this game is more than its rules, and you'd be destroying an unbroken 40 year legacy.
Game is indeed more than rules. And no one is suggesting taking away the background of the different chapters.
Hey space marine players, wanna be just like every other space marine player?
But my army wouldn't be the same as everyone else's. From this huge pool of units I would choose the combination units that I like, and that would unlikely to be exactly the same than everyone else's choice. Blood Angels players could choose a larger number of jump pack units, Imperial Fists player more heavy support units and White Scars player more bike units. But it doesn't mean there needs to be special snowflake versions of those units for those chapters.
Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?
Harliquins used to back in the day just be in codex Eldar. now they're their own codex. So it's NOT just marines. furthermore, deathguard and 1k sons now how their own codex.
why are there so many Marine spin off codices? there's a very simple answer.
BECAUSE IT'S PROFITABLE
Black Templars where folded into codex space marines. the conclusion, Black Templars just wheren't popular eneugh to justify keeping seperate. given that the other chapters haven't been. one can only conclude that there is sufficant demand to keep them seperate.
If GW thought a "Codex Biel-Tan" or "Codex Snakebite orks" would be popular eneugh to justify a codex? they'd fething do it.
GW is a company people not a goddamned charity. and that means the parts that are popular get more attention and detail.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/07/31 23:56:16
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
2019/08/01 00:07:20
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
Taking away unit options and such is bad business.
I’m in favor of consolidating SM, SW, DA, and BA into one book, and I don’t play any of those armies. However, my army did have its own book and got folded into another. We lost codex Militarum Tempestus from last edition. I lost warlord traits and options on my vehicles. To be honest, aside from the lost warlord traits, the situation of Militarum Tempestus has improved, as I now have access to all the units in the Advisors and Auxillia list. Plus I can ally regular guard more easily if I really wanted.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
2019/08/01 00:20:25
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
^For what it's worth I quite like the 3rd Edition way of doing it, where there was a main SM book, and then "pamphlet" books that gave the appropriate adjustments for the alternates.
When Tempestus got folded back in, the only things lost that weren't 7th Ed only were the WL traits, so it wasn't much of a loss.
For SW/DA/BA, while they share a core of the army with Generic Marines (GM), they still have a large number of units each, more than you could easily put on a page or two in the codex for each.
It worked with BT, because aside from the Castilians (Not the knight), and Crusader squads, GM already had everything they did. And Castillians became Lieutenants anyway.
With BA, you'd have to include room for Sanguinary Guards, Death Companies, Death Company dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreads, Librarian Dreads, and Baal Preditors. That's not including their large stable of special characters.
Making SG just a few upgrade options for VVets would be less satisfying for many existing BA players, because they already have VVets.
2019/08/01 00:28:23
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
I'm a Deathwatch/Dark Angels player that says consolidation works for Inquisition forces and Marines.
I'm also not a fan of only one relic per character as, if someone places all their eggs in one basket, that's on them. A Chapter Master copying Rogal Dorn with the Spartean/Primarchs Wrath and Teeth of Terra is reasonable to me and doesn't break anything.
Except when you get to knight relics. The rules of unintended consequences also apply.
And ya know what? Weapon Relics costed appropriately solves that issue. You want a relic Chainsword AND Fist on your Knight? That's fine if they're costed fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: So.. show of hands here Space Marine players.. whom here would pay 80 bucks for a codex? people are already saying the Codices are too expensive, and consolidating the dark angels and blood angels codices would only expand this.
Let's assume for a minute that GW does this, dark angel;s and blood angles are given the 3 pages of fluff and sucessor chapters every other chapter in the book is given.
Let's assume that every character has a fluff entry in the codex, and let's assume 2 datasheets a page.
you're looking at adding somewhere in the ballpark of 25 pages to the codex from just HQs etc before adding any units.
Now beyond this blood angels could proably manage fine with Sanguigary guard being rolled into Honorguard. And Death Company could even be reduced to a strat (which might be seen as "meh" at first until blood angels realize they can start tossing out death company sanguigary guard and stuff)
Dark Angels might need some consolidation of their deathwing and ravenwing stuff so IMHO they'd risk losing more.
So basicly it could be done but the result would be a massive and expensive codex, that'd likely have a ton of exceptions etc in the rules.
Seeing as the Index handled a lot of it fine, who says it needs to be 80$ outside you?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 00:43:10
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/01 00:46:59
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hardly. The Grey Knight codex is maybe 20~, give or take. Remove the entries that don't matter (nobody is going to miss Crowe or the obviously imbalanced GMDreadknight) and that's pretty easy. Deathwatch only look flooded in entries because of the addition of Primaris units. Otherwise they share a bunch of datasheets themselves from the vehicles.
So, it's another case of you thinking something is gak, so it has to go. Nevermind the fact that people use them.
It's still three codex worth of separate armies you're trying to cram together, simply on the grounds of some weird feeling of superiority.
Crowe has bad fluff and bad rules and shouldn't exist in general. I'm for getting rid of Dreadknight GMs because of the huge imbalance they cause against the entry of the regular Dreadknight.
It isn't some feeling superiority. It's for practicality. Practicality dictates that the Inquisition and the military forces associated with them be in one comprehensive codex.
So he needs his rules fixed. Just because you're smug in your not using him doesn't mean he should be removed. Practicality dictates that armies that have vastly separate rules, should be in separate codexes. So yes, it's you feeling that since you don't use them, they need to go.
Same as it's always been for your contributions to these posts.
Martel732 wrote: Or just get rid of DW. Because they are a dumb power fantasy.
Dawn take you.
yup because deathwatch don't have a fairly rich background dating back 20 years or so with multiple apperances in fluff, a RPG and all sorts of other things. nope they're just some dumb power fantasy.
Something can be a stupid power fantasy for 20 years. And have multiple sources indulge it. God forbid someone criticize GWs excessive use of power armor factions.
OR they go into a Inquisition codex and we remove the stuff that they don't really need (although being so Elite with not as many options it wouldn't be as big a cleanup. Getting rid of the Corvus entry and making them use the Stormraven would definitely save some room).
Or we can just keep DW/GK/SoB separate because outside of a piece of fluff, have never been part of each other, or worked together as a general force for oh...all of their existence. Nevermind the fact that they have vastly different units from each other, vastly different rules, and vastly different wargear. This isn't like trying to cram DA/BA together, where at least 1/3 of their books are in common. And while generic primaris do make a chunk of the DW units, they don't exist in the other two armies you want to cram together.
No, Crowe just needs to go. He serves no purpose in existing outside the fluff being atrocious. I'm not smug, I'm just correct. Use the model as a generic Champ and you'll have much better results.
The "model" for the GM Dreadknight doesn't even exist, so that's not a problem in removing the entry. It's far too imbalanced in terms of execution and concept.
Sure, let's remove Tigarius from the space marines, he doesn't serve any purpose outisde of fluff. A regular librarian has access to the same powers.
Sorry dude, you're trying to gatekeep. Just because you like something doesn't mean it needs to go.
Rules imbalances can be fixed. Shocking, I know.
So yeah. You're smug. Not correct.
Tiggy at least costs more than a regular Librarian for what he does.
You do realize they made Crowe LOWER in cost than a regular Champ to make him still not as good as a regular Champ? A special character should NOT be cheaper than a generic option out of principle. Add in the terrible fluff and that adds to an entry and fluff piece that should've been deleted a long time ago.
Unless you can actually come up with a defense for Crowe besides "you're smug because you don't use him", he has no purpose in existing. Go.
Sure Crowe has bad rules. Doesn't mean remove him. It means fix him.
Granted I've said that for four posts now. You'd think you'd have picked up on that by now.
Crowe has bad rules, bad fluff, and no purpose in existing, and already making him cheaper than a generic Champ breaks the main point of Special Characters existing, meaning he defies what makes a Special Character special. You can't fix him and he needs to go. Period.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/01 00:51:17
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
I'll never understand why taking away options is the go to fix for so many people.
You'll notice it's almost never their army that's getting folded in. It's almost always generic Space Marine players, who want their book to absorb the other chapter books.
I'm a Deathwatch/Dark Angels player that says consolidation works for Inquisition forces and Marines.
So yeah it's my stuff too. Nice try though!
You'll notice I said almost...Try reading my post next time.
2019/08/01 01:33:14
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
BroodSpawn wrote: You'd also be invalidating people's purchases by doing that kind of consolidation
Not an argument because anyone getting into 7th at the end of the edition had their purchases invalidated by 8th rolling in.
what Minis where invalidated by 8th edition?
You really wanna get into the whole Index vs Codex and ETC existing argument? I can name you a whole slew of Codices that invalidated people's models if you want.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/01 01:34:41
Subject: A BA, SW, DA, DW detachment is not a space marine detachment, but BA, SW, DA, DW are space marines
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hardly. The Grey Knight codex is maybe 20~, give or take. Remove the entries that don't matter (nobody is going to miss Crowe or the obviously imbalanced GMDreadknight) and that's pretty easy. Deathwatch only look flooded in entries because of the addition of Primaris units. Otherwise they share a bunch of datasheets themselves from the vehicles.
So, it's another case of you thinking something is gak, so it has to go. Nevermind the fact that people use them.
It's still three codex worth of separate armies you're trying to cram together, simply on the grounds of some weird feeling of superiority.
Crowe has bad fluff and bad rules and shouldn't exist in general. I'm for getting rid of Dreadknight GMs because of the huge imbalance they cause against the entry of the regular Dreadknight.
It isn't some feeling superiority. It's for practicality. Practicality dictates that the Inquisition and the military forces associated with them be in one comprehensive codex.
So he needs his rules fixed. Just because you're smug in your not using him doesn't mean he should be removed. Practicality dictates that armies that have vastly separate rules, should be in separate codexes. So yes, it's you feeling that since you don't use them, they need to go.
Same as it's always been for your contributions to these posts.
Martel732 wrote: Or just get rid of DW. Because they are a dumb power fantasy.
Dawn take you.
yup because deathwatch don't have a fairly rich background dating back 20 years or so with multiple apperances in fluff, a RPG and all sorts of other things. nope they're just some dumb power fantasy.
Something can be a stupid power fantasy for 20 years. And have multiple sources indulge it. God forbid someone criticize GWs excessive use of power armor factions.
OR they go into a Inquisition codex and we remove the stuff that they don't really need (although being so Elite with not as many options it wouldn't be as big a cleanup. Getting rid of the Corvus entry and making them use the Stormraven would definitely save some room).
Or we can just keep DW/GK/SoB separate because outside of a piece of fluff, have never been part of each other, or worked together as a general force for oh...all of their existence. Nevermind the fact that they have vastly different units from each other, vastly different rules, and vastly different wargear. This isn't like trying to cram DA/BA together, where at least 1/3 of their books are in common. And while generic primaris do make a chunk of the DW units, they don't exist in the other two armies you want to cram together.
No, Crowe just needs to go. He serves no purpose in existing outside the fluff being atrocious. I'm not smug, I'm just correct. Use the model as a generic Champ and you'll have much better results.
The "model" for the GM Dreadknight doesn't even exist, so that's not a problem in removing the entry. It's far too imbalanced in terms of execution and concept.
Sure, let's remove Tigarius from the space marines, he doesn't serve any purpose outisde of fluff. A regular librarian has access to the same powers.
Sorry dude, you're trying to gatekeep. Just because you like something doesn't mean it needs to go.
Rules imbalances can be fixed. Shocking, I know.
So yeah. You're smug. Not correct.
Tiggy at least costs more than a regular Librarian for what he does.
You do realize they made Crowe LOWER in cost than a regular Champ to make him still not as good as a regular Champ? A special character should NOT be cheaper than a generic option out of principle. Add in the terrible fluff and that adds to an entry and fluff piece that should've been deleted a long time ago.
Unless you can actually come up with a defense for Crowe besides "you're smug because you don't use him", he has no purpose in existing. Go.
Sure Crowe has bad rules. Doesn't mean remove him. It means fix him.
Granted I've said that for four posts now. You'd think you'd have picked up on that by now.
[/spoiler]
Crowe has bad rules, bad fluff, and no purpose in existing, and already making him cheaper than a generic Champ breaks the main point of Special Characters existing, meaning he defies what makes a Special Character special. You can't fix him and he needs to go. Period.
Bad rules can be fixed, bad fluff is subjective, and he definitely serves a purpose, even if it's "be cheaper than a normal expensive brother captain is". The point of a special character existing (and I can't believe I have to tell you this) is to be different from the generic characters. Crowe certainly is.
As for fixing him, you fail 100% of the time when you don't try.
With BA, you'd have to include room for Sanguinary Guards,
Should be covered by giving generic Honour Guard an option to take jump packs.
Death Companies, Death Company dreadnoughts,
These can stay unique.
Furioso Dreads, Librarian Dreads, and Baal Preditors.
Everyone should get these.
That's not including their large stable of special characters.
Some can stay, other can be represented by relics you can give to generic characters.
Why should they be generic Honor guard? They aren't.
As for special characters, who decided which stay and go? I'm sure we can find someone who would be able to defend the inclusion of each.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 01:37:17
