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Congrats, everyone. Now instead of what could've been an easy consolidation of the Marine armies into one comprehensive army, we now get a Marine codex with the supplements we all know and love, just like in 7th edition.

We were promised less bloat, and this is quite the opposite. Now GW listened to you folks that said "We NeEd RuLeS fOr EvErYtHiNg!!!!1!" as we revert to a bad time in the game's life.

I'm tentatively excited myself.

From the way they're talking about it, the C: Space Marines isn't exactly what you're making it out to be.

The impression I'm getting?
Codex Space Marines will be a big book...but it's going to lose named characters, signature units(Crusader Squads, Neophyte Servitors, Emperor's Champion), etc. The "Chapter Rules" for the First Foundings I'm feeling will likely be a cliffnotes version(Raven Guard are sneaky, White Scars like to go fast, etc) while the Supplements are going to give you more(Raven Guard get superior infiltration abilities and maybe some different objectives compared to others, etc)

This new setup is a thing I've really been hoping they'd do for a long time:
The ability to actually parse out the named characters that skew balance in a Bad Way without requiring them to split off into their own 100% dedicated codex.
The ability to actually cut out bloat that does not and never will affect me(a good chunk of C: Space Marines is Ultramarines crap or Black Templars crap. I don't play them. I play Raven Guard) and potentially cut down the cost of the book--even factoring in a supplement.

TLDR:
I think pretending this is bloat is harmful to the discussions that actually surround bloat. There is no way, shape, or form where I can envision myself needing every single one of these--except for maybe against the cheesy gits who like to have creative interpretations of their book's rules and refuse to show you the book for you to see it.

Wouldn't it be better to address his points instead of attacking him personally?

If they keep points specific to these sub-factions I will be pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem currently is that way too many chapters have the same points across them and then they need to balance the codex in case you take Ultramarines with Roboute who scales different from the rest..

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to address his points instead of attacking him personally?

Address what? 8th rules bloat is quite evident and they are literally re-printing the codices after 2 mere years (1,5 years in case of CSM) with ADDED Supplements. There's nothing to discuss as of now since one of our greatest fears during the transition to the new edition literally came back stronger than ever

 Eldarsif wrote:
If they keep points specific to these sub-factions I will be pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem currently is that way too many chapters have the same points across them and then they need to balance the codex in case you take Ultramarines with Roboute who scales different from the rest..

This is a scam to get you to pay for 2 overpriced books instead of 1. I understand your hope for competent rules balancing. But it's VERY unlikely.

 Eldarsif wrote:
If they keep points specific to these sub-factions I will be pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem currently is that way too many chapters have the same points across them and then they need to balance the codex in case you take Ultramarines with Roboute who scales different from the rest..

I don't expect to see points costs for, say, Intercessors to vary wildly from book to book--but I would imagine that some of the "signature units" mentioned will be costed differently. I'd also posit that it finally will let them see what players have been saying for ages:
Characters are a Big Deal when they come with perks, relics, and wargear that nobody else gets.

 Lance845 wrote:

This is a scam to get you to pay for 2 overpriced books instead of 1. I understand your hope for competent rules balancing. But it's VERY unlikely.

Did I miss the price list dropping already? Huh. Weird that they'd release the codex so quick!

Come on...
GW remains in the business of making money. Rule books is one way to do it. If anyone on this forum is honestly shocked by this, than I will be honestly shocked. We can gripe (and do) about it, or we can be excited for some changes. I fall into both categories. I am tired of purchasing 10 pages of rules and 50-60 pages of fluff I find poorly written and mostly uninteresting, but then again, will my White Scars finally get something cool and turn them back into White Scars???

Sarcasm ahead...
Besides, you know, getting their leader on his bike...because you know, I like luke skywalker without a lightsaber or vampires who sparkle in sunlight instead of dieing horribly...)

On another note: Kanluwen, honest question: Do you believe this codex will be cheaper than the previous? And that the supplements will cost appreciably (whatever that is) less?
My experience in 20+ years is: Additional materials needed is GW's pattern, price reduction is not.
Or did you mean "Price list" as in cost in points for units and balance? I do hope for better balance and think they have done better this edition than previous ones.

Codex chaos knights has 5 datasheets at less than 80 pages for 40.00.

You think codex sm with more datasheets than any other army will be less than 50?

You think the supplements will be less than 35-50?

edwardmyst wrote:

On another note: Kanluwen, honest question: Do you believe this codex will be cheaper than the previous? And that the supplements will cost appreciably (whatever that is) less?

Considering they've been aiming for every Codex to be $40? Yeah, I'd believe that it would be cheaper than the previous. I'd imagine the supplements will be somewhere in the realm of $15-$20...depending on how large they are. I'd guess $30 on the extreme top end.

My experience in 20+ years is: Additional materials needed is GW's pattern, price reduction is not.

And yet we have seen price reductions. The current book is $50 versus the $58 last edition's was. The same goes for Codex: Craftworlds(was a $58 codex last edition, now $40).
We also haven't actually seen anything that is "required". People can piss and moan all they want about "i NeEd tO hAvE TO bE cOmPeTiTiVe!"...but that isn't the same as needed to actually play.

Or did you mean "Price list" as in cost in points for units and balance? I do hope for better balance and think they have done better this edition than previous ones.

I meant exactly what I said. It was a snarky comment on people with "the sky is falling!" attitudes literally the day after the announcement of this stuff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
If they keep points specific to these sub-factions I will be pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem currently is that way too many chapters have the same points across them and then they need to balance the codex in case you take Ultramarines with Roboute who scales different from the rest..

I don't expect to see points costs for, say, Intercessors to vary wildly from book to book--but I would imagine that some of the "signature units" mentioned will be costed differently. I'd also posit that it finally will let them see what players have been saying for ages:
Characters are a Big Deal when they come with perks, relics, and wargear that nobody else gets.

 Lance845 wrote:

This is a scam to get you to pay for 2 overpriced books instead of 1. I understand your hope for competent rules balancing. But it's VERY unlikely.

Did I miss the price list dropping already? Huh. Weird that they'd release the codex so quick!

So Kan do you believe that the main codex+supplement is going to cost less than the current Codex as you condescension implies or is there a reason we have to wait for pre orders if there is a very high probability that they are going to cost more given real life and GW’s track record.

For what it’s worth you will be lucky to get away with £30 for the main 90% of the rules and another £20 for the remaining 10% of rules, saying that the share holders expect so maybe add another £5 to each to flavour.

The supplements MIGHT be the cost of the Indexes at around $25. But the main codex is likely $50 like the current one.

I do think GW will be smart and cost the supplements at a lower cost than the codex. Knights are a bad example because they have a stand alone book. It doesn't matter how many datasheets it has.

-

 Galef wrote:
The supplements MIGHT be the cost of the Indexes at around $25. But the main codex is likely $50 like the current one.

I do think GW will be smart and cost the supplements at a lower cost than the codex. Knights are a bad example because they have a stand alone book. It doesn't matter how many datasheets it has.

-

Knights is a great example because if they were ever willing to sell you a hardcover for 25 that would have been it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:

On another note: Kanluwen, honest question: Do you believe this codex will be cheaper than the previous? And that the supplements will cost appreciably (whatever that is) less?

Considering they've been aiming for every Codex to be $40? Yeah, I'd believe that it would be cheaper than the previous. I'd imagine the supplements will be somewhere in the realm of $15-$20...depending on how large they are. I'd guess $30 on the extreme top end.

My experience in 20+ years is: Additional materials needed is GW's pattern, price reduction is not.

And yet we have seen price reductions. The current book is $50 versus the $58 last edition's was. The same goes for Codex: Craftworlds(was a $58 codex last edition, now $40).
We also haven't actually seen anything that is "required". People can piss and moan all they want about "i NeEd tO hAvE TO bE cOmPeTiTiVe!"...but that isn't the same as needed to actually play.

Or did you mean "Price list" as in cost in points for units and balance? I do hope for better balance and think they have done better this edition than previous ones.

I meant exactly what I said. It was a snarky comment on people with "the sky is falling!" attitudes literally the day after the announcement of this stuff.

Sorry I missed your reply while typing, so hang on you honestly believe there going to charge the same now for supplement as they did over a decade ago rofl sorry sorry you expect a supplement for £12.50-£15.00 ahhh nope not a chance you must be kidding so seriously what price are yo expecting.

SeanDrake wrote:

Lance845 wrote:This is a scam to get you to pay for 2 overpriced books instead of 1. I understand your hope for competent rules balancing. But it's VERY unlikely.

So Kan do you believe that the main codex+supplement is going to cost less than the current Codex as you condescension implies or is there a reason we have to wait for pre orders if there is a very high probability that they are going to cost more given real life and GW’s track record.

He didn't say that it was going to cost less than the current Codex, so you can knock off trying to put words in my mouth. The point made by my "condescension"(it's actually snark, but whatever) was that we can't say jack about the books "being overpriced" until we actually know how much they are.

We don't know if the main book will drop to $40 and lose a lot of the Chapter specific character fluff, color plates, etc.

For what it’s worth you will be lucky to get away with £30 for the main 90% of the rules and another £20 for the remaining 10% of rules, saying that the share holders expect so maybe add another £5 to each to flavour.

You're aware that it's not "90% and 10%" separate from what's been talked about so far right?

 Kanluwen wrote:
we can't say jack about the books "being overpriced" until we actually know how much they are.

Sure we can. Is the book more than $0? It's overpriced.

Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
we can't say jack about the books "being overpriced" until we actually know how much they are.

Sure we can. Is the book more than $0? It's overpriced.

Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.

I didnt say infinity.

 Dysartes wrote:
Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?

Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.

 Lance845 wrote:
Codex chaos knights has 5 datasheets at less than 80 pages for 40.00.

You think codex sm with more datasheets than any other army will be less than 50?

You think the supplements will be less than 35-50?

Which is one of my fundamental issues.

Chaos Knights could've been 1-2 pages on how to switch keywords to use your Knights as bad guys (AKA so you still get Relics, Traits, Warlords and that garbage), and then 5-6 pages of the stuff for fluffbunnies.

I don't get why people are complaining so much about the Chaos Knight codex. I mean, any criticism that falls on that codex automatically falls on the Imperial Knights Codex as well, at least to the total of content.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.

I didnt say infinity.

I never said you did. I said that's your opinion and I used the example of Infinity's books.

It's such a shame that there's no forum for people who actually enjoy the hobby and find new releases exciting.

For Space Marine players, who are here for the hobby and not to spread negativity, the news from yesterday is great. The issue of incompatibility between Codex SM and it's BA/DA/SW offshoots has been resolved. There's even a thread on the front page already complaining that BA/DA/SW aren't SM and can't use new SM units.

That the other founding chapters are also getting supplements is excellent news too. More variety and character /= bloat. If you don't play whitescars, you don't need the codex, so you don't buy the codex. It really is incredibly straight forward.

I do really wonder why some members are still here when they seem to spent every post complaining, or getting upset by the hobby. It's meant to be fun, it's meant to be enjoyable. If you don't find it that way, try something else?

It's also stunning how people still complain of the hobby being overpriced. How are the prices still surprising people? It's been more than 30 years of the same story. Maybe it's time to accept that. It's an expensive hobby. Not overpriced though. If that was the case people wouldn;'t be buying it.

Every release there's the usual crowd that will say "X hasn't gotten anything new, it's always Imperium". I'm pretty sure if Eldar were to get a full plastic aspect warrior range with a new codex, new options, we'd still be subjected to the same noise of "Bloat, overpriced, the old range was better, not grimdark, cashcow, appealing to new fans, not multipart enough, why did my army not get new stuff?, my codex is only a year old now I've to buy a new one".

The incessant negativity really only speaks of entitlement. GW could hand us a pot of gold for free and we'd see complaints that it's too heavy and shiny.

Space Marines get more because they make up a significantly larger portion of the player base than any other faction.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.

I didnt say infinity.

I never said you did. I said that's your opinion and I used the example of Infinity's books.

Cool. So there are quality books with more content for less or equal cost.

Then there is gws overpriced books. And then there are infinitys books which you claim are also overpriced which is relevent to the discusion for some reason.

Sentineil wrote:
It's such a shame that there's no forum for people who actually enjoy the hobby and find new releases exciting..

forgot it Jack, it's Dakka town...(the happy folks are happy playing while us forum howlers fling monkey gak at each other)

whilst I think its a tad shady the simple method of dealing with it is, not to buy it

 Sentineil wrote:
GW apologism

Or, instead of complaining about how people are anything but 100% worshipful towards GW, you could consider the possibility that many of us genuinely like the hobby (or at least some parts of it) and want it to be better?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
GW apologism

Entitled Whining

Yes, it's amazing how me enjoying the hobby and being tired of the endless complaining here, which isn't even coherent, is actually me just being a GW apologist. Excellent deduction. I'll wait patiently to be called a shill soon enough.

The whinging here flip flops between the usual "The rules are bloated" and "My faction didn't get new things". It's unfortunate that the need for new rules for new things seems to be difficult to grasp.

If you want it to be a better hobby then send feedback to GW rather than spreading the usual poison across the hobby forums.

All rules will be easily pirated. Hell the review book they give to people that they flip through on YouTube/Stream will be page copied for all to use. And GW did not stop them. They know and expect now that all their rule will be freely available through a simple Google search.

The people they are targeting are those that love to have the book to flip through. Not a penny pinching Dakka whinner.

Inside knowledge from work related to this: shipping on road or rail has gone up 9% this year. Across ocean 8.5%. Paper stock about 5.3%. Depending on were but print costs are all up around 9%.

Books are not for tournament players. You should know by now that pretty much No player brings all their books.
This is for the people that like and don't mind spending money for dead trees.