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I've stayed silent on these forums for a while now as I just wanted to play test Orks for a while (only coming on to make the odd post or poll to check peoples opinions on certain things). However, after a good time now playing Orks with the new codex I have some things to say about my Green Skin friendz and I'm wondering if others agree with me or have suggestions on how I could improve (or if I'm just doing it wrong). Note: Everything here comes from the core codex and doesn't include any extra sold expansions that add extra things (of which I have no concern for giving GW more money to get gud).

It really boils down to my play style of Orks and their toys:

1. Boyz vs Toyz:
I've run mass Ork Boyz, Lootas and Tides and I've seen people run them. They're fine and as good as they ever were. The points change to boyz in no way effected how competitive they are and how many people bring. Nevertheless, what it did seem to effect is me and what toys I'm allowed to bring. I much prefer Wagons with elite/boyz and the new buggies over a horde of a solid 30 boyz but my testing has shown that just having 30 boyz and a weirdboy tends to be always the better choice. They're faster than my Wagons and deadlier (having the 1+A rather than the 20 boyz who tend to lose that after 1 wound) and for 270 points (before upgrades and with a weirdboy) it's so much more appealing than the 260 points for a basic wagon with 20 boyz. Running them as Snakebites and Death Skullz also really makes them worth their points as their survival rates go up. Now, don't get me wrong, in the right situation you want your boyz and hq in a wagon over having them out on the field for snipers. Yet, even with enemy snipers I've found the Gretchen ability to be more effective at protecting lootas and HQ's (especially if there is a heavy amount of enemy anti-tank). Without the extra 20pts I'm pretty sure for 240pts I'd be more willing to bring wagons and boyz. It sometimes becomes a game of picking easy mode vs hard mode. I also find it a bit cheeky when i can regain one boyz horde with a few CP once I do start to lose them.

2. My army is Hungry:
Another issue I'm finding with my toyz is that to be effective I have to pump in points and CP into fragile units (something boyz don't always need). Apart from the Mek gunz (Which I refuse to use due to their IRL price), a lot of the toyz orks use are rather pricey but come with little protection unless you spend more points. The two buggies I own (from the Speed Freaks) look awesome but shatter like glass if you fail that turn 1 roll off. Vs a very anti-tank meta you can spend 200-350 pts on the new units and (in my games) lose them turn 1 to a few well place anti-tank shots. The Shokkjump Dragsta's anti tanks themselves are reliable and I have little complaints, but after every game I look at the buggies and go "For the same points cost I could just bring more boyz which I know would have done better".

When it comes to the other toyz (wagons, kopptas, flyers, Kanz, etc...) I often come to the same conclusion. I've had so many times where I've had to consider a wagon bringing just one big shoota over a boy (never mind the 18pts lobbas XD). It's not always just the toys themselves I've had points problems with but the accessories the toys sell separately. Don't even get my started on the Stompa points!

The Bonebreaka I've found to be a pretty good unit itself but have found it to be very CP hungry. There is little point not DS it (as leaving on the battlefield leaves an expensive valuable unit with expensive cargo open to a few good anti-tank shots). Then there are all the strats that basically guarantee a charge. Making a unit good just because of what CP you can spend I've always had issues with but I've come to just accept it for what it is. However, in order to get these CP I'm having to spend points on HQ's and units I don't really want and do little with (I try to make it as cheap as possible to bring my toyz). 30 gretchin (3X 10 men squads) in a speed freaks army are 90pts (which is great in a green tide army but can equal almost a buggy in my army) which are not really needed as my back lines are of little concern to me, the objectives are always reached by my other units first and a slight wind kills the little guys (with no clan keyword support).

Now, to be fair Trukks are a great cheap alternative. And here I must concede. But I have a bunch of wagons and i want to use them!

3. Useless Toyz

Now there are a few units that seem fun on paper but really scratch my head when I started to play with them. Obviously the kanz, nobz on bikes and some flyers are the obvious ones but things like Gunwagonz really make me confused (and question if the devs thought more than 2 seconds about them).

here is an example:

The gunwagon (with the cheapest weapon and nothing else) is 4pts less than the Bonebreaka but with a fraction of the damage output and usefulness (to the point I can just bring a wagon and it does the same thing but for less).
1. It has max room for 12 guyz but isn't open topped so you would never but tankbustas or Lootas in it. A basic wagon has 20 slots when it closed and open topped.
2.The model gets double shots on the main turret if it moves half speed. The vehicle is 12" movement so you're about the same speed as an ork boy if you want to take advantage of this ability. However, one of it's weapon (the one you're probably tempted to take) options is only 24" 1D6 (the other two are an 18pts 1 shot weapon 36" weapon or a 36" 15pts Kannon (missile launcher stats of 1d6 s4 or 1 s8 shot)). With shorter range weapons like this you want to be move the full 12" to get it into range. So what's the point of this ability if I can just take a basic wagon, fill it with more guys and rush it down the center of the table not having to consider my speed? With pretty assault weapons and single shot or random weapons at BS5+ I don't really care about moving slow.
3. The model explodes on a 4+. Why would you give me a vehicle, charge extra points for a rule that tells it to stay behind in friendly lines and then tell me there is a 50% chance it will kill my own guys for keeping it behind (and telling the whole world to aim for it)? With a 4+ explosion you run the major risk of damaging your own guys long before you get close to the enemy (especially with 6" movement). If you do rush it up the table to try and explode in the enemy lines you lose the extra shots you're paying for (and if you advance you lose all shots) and run the risk of damaging your guys inside and the guys alongside you. You don't want to DS it as a bonebreaka does more consistent damage for 4pts more and doesn't have a 50% chance of mortal wounding your guys inside.

Anyway, do you have any suggestions or tips on how to improve my toyz before boyz army? Or do you have similar problems you'd like to discuss?

Point 2 is inherent to alot of factions though, even better is it when a unit only really get's efective when you throw a metric boatload of CP at it. Even worse imo when only a very specific setup makes the unit actually worht their points through trait and stratagem access interactions.

And i feel you on that one as a CSM player, everyone and their mother needs to be a follower of the hedonistic moron god if he want's to shoot good enough to gain the pts back.

Point 3. As an ex ork player. GW deemed Orkz to be the lulz faction, powerfull effects for the trade off that 50% of the time the effect is dangerous, 25% underperforming and 25% of just bs overcompensation.
It is not fun to play that way, neither for the enemy on the reciving end of a high roll, nor for you for the 75% of the time the unit underperforms or decides that it's going to shoot it's allies instead.

If you have just 2 buggies how on earth they are that visible t1? They are fast so can hide further back behind los blocking terrain. You aren't playing on planet bowling ball are you?

Bad Moons player here:

If you want to have an efficient army you should have picked any other of the available factions. Orkz are here for comic relief and once in a while they manage to win a game.

Don’t listen to all the naysayers. Orks are a serious powerhouse. You can actually play with all your toys...and it’s the best way to play.

It’s as simple as a Deffskullz Brigade.

Have fun with it!

His criticism is quite warranted, I fully share his opinion.

Orks in general work pretty well and we have lots of viable units. However, pretty much anything that has wheels (excluding mek guns) isn't working too well right now, but is one of the primary reasons for some people to start/play orks.
Or in terms easier to understand for non-ork players, White Scar players are not going to be happy just because the Ultramarine gunline is doing well while bikes and jump troops are trash tier.

I've just started painting an Evil Sunz contingent to add to my Warband, so I'm sort of crossing my fingers for some points drops for things with wheels come CA2019. Ultimately though, I don't really play competitively so I'll still use them regardless.

eh welcome to being an ork player. we are happy when we get to mid tier. people will complain about how OP we are if we ever reach mid tier. In 5th we used wounds shenanagins and the kff on middling to fair vehicles or exploited cover from kanwall to stay in the middle of the power pack. in 6th and 7th we had the worst codex in the game with only CSM being abel to mayeb sometimes hold that title but its a title nobody wants. in 8th we had that swing to upper middle but then the FAQ smacked us down to middle of the middle to lower middle tier. with the new space marine codex probbaly pulling all marines up to above us... welcome back to lower tier and given GW history with orks we will not be leaving it for several editions.

Some of the biggest names in 40k were trying orks with the new codex, but most have moved on seeing it just does not have what it takes to play at the highest levels. I am sorry but if Nick Nanavati cannot make orks work pre nerf then post faq nerf you can see where we are.

That said orks can be fun, play in pickup games and scoop up smaller tournament wins usually playing a smart countermeta list if your local groups are not ready for hordes.I enjoy pickup games and narrative emissions. Outside of the ETC and ITC formats you can be competitive in open war when the cards are right so there is that.

I totally sympathise with you Lolman1c. I have more or less shelved my orks because I don't want to repaint my goffs red. Mt orks will come out for friendly fun games.

However I start to lose sympathy with you when you say things like you refuse to give GW more money and that you won't pay the price for mek gunz. I agree that mek gunz are probably the most expensive £/point model they make but you must have understood the cost of this hobby at some point before your 100th ork was painted.

The meta changes with every release but our codex doesn't. Orks now play best in the way that everyone envisioned them. As hordes of boyz and grotz backed up by wacky gunz like the shokk attak and KMK's and/or smashas.

By refusing to buy the models and vigilus nonsense you are deliberately handicapping yourself.

I'm with you but I will continue to buy GW stuff because I'm bought in to the sunk cost fallacy wholesale now.

If you live in London or you're ever down here PM me because I still think an ork vs ork game is the purest form of fun this game can give.

I don't agree with the mek gun part though. Their cost is way above the average this hobby usually costs.

I added up the money needed to buy mek guns and just bought an entire 2000 point death guard army instead.
The next time my lootbox was full I opted to buy Speed Freeks and three other buggies instead.

The model might be worth the money cost, the datasheet almost certainly isn't.

Yeah, Mek guns are stupidly priced, especially when you ideally want at least 2 of them in order for them to perform efficiently.

People actually bought mekguns from GW at those prices?
Just kitbash them no?

Believe me I'm not justifying the cost of them. I believe they are the most expensive model for in game return. I'd love to see if that was true but can't be bothered.

They are kinda good (ish). Smasha gunz are definitely worth their points

when looking at the cost of buying 9 mek guns I instead bought a $180 Creality Ender 3 3d printer... this purchase was 100% related.

I do have some converted mek guns and 1 trukk plus 1 mek guns kit can make 4 mek guns but after doign that once I decided the reast would be 3d printed

 Nithaniel wrote:
I totally sympathise with you Lolman1c. I have more or less shelved my orks because I don't want to repaint my goffs red. Mt orks will come out for friendly fun games.

However I start to lose sympathy with you when you say things like you refuse to give GW more money and that you won't pay the price for mek gunz. I agree that mek gunz are probably the most expensive £/point model they make but you must have understood the cost of this hobby at some point before your 100th ork was painted.

The meta changes with every release but our codex doesn't. Orks now play best in the way that everyone envisioned them. As hordes of boyz and grotz backed up by wacky gunz like the shokk attak and KMK's and/or smashas.

By refusing to buy the models and vigilus nonsense you are deliberately handicapping yourself.

I'm with you but I will continue to buy GW stuff because I'm bought in to the sunk cost fallacy wholesale now.

If you live in London or you're ever down here PM me because I still think an ork vs ork game is the purest form of fun this game can give.

I bought all my orks boyz from forum groups years ago. Spent like £40 on 120 boyz my whole time playing this game. Was pretty lu ky on that side of things.

As for spending more money... reminds me so much of the pay to win stuff peojple hate in the gaming industry. We sit there and get angry at EA giving you 10% more damage for £20 but don't get angry when GW makes our army 10% more viable for £20. Difference is EA charges us 0-40£ for their game while GW can cost 500+. Really I've just been put off GW since they charged us for fixing the problems they caused.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, Mek guns are stupidly priced, especially when you ideally want at least 2 of them in order for them to perform efficiently.

Most competitive armies have like 4+ XD

But really, it comes down to me already spending a bunch over the years and having a pretty good sized army (i have 2 ork armies and 1 marine). The whole point of a hobby (in my mind) is that once everything is set up I can play with it and have fun. But everyone always has this expectation that because 1 unit is viable everyone has it and spams it. I have my army and I don't feel like stocking more models just to play a game. Especially if I'm happy with my display shelf and don't have the room for them anyway.

I feel ya.

I've had a blast playing Orks last edition. Pointless dice rolling. Picking up models all game long. Getting my hopes up.

This edition I haven't played the Boyz much at all, two games using the Index, and none with the codex.

I even have the necessary models for the Loota bomb build that was popular pre-mob up nerf. A stupid amount of Boyz. A fine collection of Kommandoz. And nearly every HQ.

But I just havent quite felt the waaagh. Sold off half the collection already and still have about 2500 pts.

I'm hoping when I get bored of my new baby, the Imperial/Chaos Knight low model count army, I'll want to do a Horde.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Bad Moons player here:

If you want to have an efficient army you should have picked any other of the available factions. Orkz are here for comic relief and once in a while they manage to win a game.

I am so sick and tired of this attitude in the 40k community. Orkz are supposed to be fun, i'll give you that. Their light hearted violence and complete disregard for life and limb is hilarious in a dark way, but, they should be just as competitive as any other army. They are not here solely for comic relief, because if they were, the size of the Ork community would be 1/10th of what it is. We want orkz to be fun and be competitive, and that isn't that much to ask for honestly.

 Nithaniel wrote:
I totally sympathise with you Lolman1c. I have more or less shelved my orks because I don't want to repaint my goffs red. Mt orks will come out for friendly fun games.

However I start to lose sympathy with you when you say things like you refuse to give GW more money and that you won't pay the price for mek gunz. I agree that mek gunz are probably the most expensive £/point model they make but you must have understood the cost of this hobby at some point before your 100th ork was painted.

The meta changes with every release but our codex doesn't. Orks now play best in the way that everyone envisioned them. As hordes of boyz and grotz backed up by wacky gunz like the shokk attak and KMK's and/or smashas.

By refusing to buy the models and vigilus nonsense you are deliberately handicapping yourself.

I'm with you but I will continue to buy GW stuff because I'm bought in to the sunk cost fallacy wholesale now.

If you live in London or you're ever down here PM me because I still think an ork vs ork game is the purest form of fun this game can give.

In the US a Mek gun is $50, in the game it is 31 to 60pts with the 31pt option being the most popular. MOST competitive ork armies have at a minimum a full battery of 6 Mek Gunz(Some have 4 but not splitting hairs here) So, the competitive armies have shelled out $300 to fill 186pts of their 2,000pt army. So 300 for less then 10% of your army. That is utterly ridiculous.


With that said, I think I have like 8 Mek Gunz, but Ive converted trukkz to make most of mine

Sorry, but OP, most of these points are hilariously bad.

1. Mek Gunz don’t get kultures: thus are largely terrible unless you play freebooterz...then the money issue is a real one. This model is retardedly bad value. One of the worst ever.

2. The Shokkjump Dragsta is one of the best light vehicles in the game. If I were to refine my list to be as hard as possible I’ll take 3.

3. Orks, built right, are easily top tier. If people don’t think so there just playing wrong

Bitharne wrote:
Sorry, but OP, most of these points are hilariously bad.

1. Mek Gunz don’t get kultures: thus are largely terrible unless you play freebooterz

I guess that's why grand tournament winners are bringing up to 18 of them, eh?
The only reason to not bring mek guns is because you already brought tankbustas, lootas, dakkajets and a wazzbomm.

2. The Shokkjump Dragsta is one of the best light vehicles in the game. If I were to refine my list to be as hard as possible I’ll take 3.

... it's not? You are paying 120 points for a vehicle that will die to bolter fire after shooting once.

3. Orks, built right, are easily top tier. If people don’t think so there just playing wrong

Maybe try reading what he wrote?

4. Lootas are trash. Please stop. Ditto Da Jump spam.

We have 27 top 4 placements and 12 tournament winners since the last CA. None of them didn't use da jump, two didn't bring 15 lootas.

5. The best possible counter to the “wrong” 40k playstyle, which is rampant, is massive amounts of targets. People build dumb lists that pewpew hard but once you side step that you can stomp all over them.

I kindly request your track record of games you have played at top tables of tournaments with your "right" 40k playstyle

Sorry, but all of your points are hilariously bad.

You’re correct. I don’t much enjoy painting so I don’t do much tourneys for sure so I can’t back it up as of yet aside from my performance in local area which isn’t useful even with a 90ish percent win rate

Bitharne wrote:
As for the rest: my main issue is that people only focus on Kill power. Like your direct response to shokkdragstas is “Bolter fire just kills it” full stop. Ok? Cool. I, literally, don’t care about anything you kill. Unless you roll like a god and delete most of my army...I don’t NEED anything.

No one needs to roll like a god to delete a badly built ork army by the end of turn 3. That's just the default of what is happening if you take bad units and focus the wrong things.

Alternatively I have a 48” gun that can go anywhere he wants sometimes. So what bolters get to just kill him?

Bad news for you: The gun isn't 48", which is precisely the reason why that particular buggy ends up in range of every single gun of your opponent's army and thus is dead after shooting.

I just don’t appreciate when I point out very valid ACTUAL math (not just mathammer to make X unit seem good like people do with lootas) and people just ignore it.

You didn't point out any math at all. Lootas are, as matter of fact, good and this is sufficiently proven by experience and math.

Thought experiment: people, generally, consider tank bustas really good...but like your argument they shoot once and die ya?

They do. And they can take out units worth more than their points when they do, thus making them a worthwhile investment.

So what happens when you take the punch of a 12man tankbustas squad and require most of your army to be dead before you lose that offensive power?

I have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Seriously. I don't even know what unit you are talking about. The shokk-jump dragsta?

One Mek Gun + one Trukk = four Mek Gunz. Simple Maff . . . Masher . . . Dat fing wid der countin’.

 Jidmah wrote:

Bitharne wrote:
As for the rest: my main issue is that people only focus on Kill power. Like your direct response to shokkdragstas is “Bolter fire just kills it” full stop. Ok? Cool. I, literally, don’t care about anything you kill. Unless you roll like a god and delete most of my army...I don’t NEED anything.

No one needs to roll like a god to delete a badly built ork army by the end of turn 3. That's just the default of what is happening if you take bad units and focus the wrong things.

Alternatively I have a 48” gun that can go anywhere he wants sometimes. So what bolters get to just kill him?

Bad news for you: The gun isn't 48", which is precisely the reason why that particular buggy ends up in range of every single gun of your opponent's army and thus is dead after shooting.

I just don’t appreciate when I point out very valid ACTUAL math (not just mathammer to make X unit seem good like people do with lootas) and people just ignore it.

You didn't point out any math at all. Lootas are, as matter of fact, good and this is sufficiently proven by experience and math.

Thought experiment: people, generally, consider tank bustas really good...but like your argument they shoot once and die ya?

They do. And they can take out units worth more than their points when they do, thus making them a worthwhile investment.

So what happens when you take the punch of a 12man tankbustas squad and require most of your army to be dead before you lose that offensive power?

I have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Seriously. I don't even know what unit you are talking about. The shokk-jump dragsta?

dude either has to be a troll... to recap "i don't paint but am da best, I have a 90+% win rate (with no proof) and my math iz da best despite not providing any"

though I guess anybody can win claiming things like their shokk jump dragster shoot 48" maybe he just cheats his way to that "90%" win rate.

Bitharne wrote:
Sorry, but OP, most of these points are hilariously bad.

1. Mek Gunz don’t get kultures: thus are largely terrible unless you play freebooterz...then the money issue is a real one. This model is retardedly bad value. One of the worst ever.

2. The Shokkjump Dragsta is one of the best light vehicles in the game. If I were to refine my list to be as hard as possible I’ll take 3.

3. Orks, built right, are easily top tier. If people don’t think so there just playing wrong

I feel like this is a troll post.

Yeah....I mean new user with only 31 posts? And most made on Ork threads mainly to aggravate people? Smells like a sockpuppet account to me.

Or a rampant newbie who thinks his 10 person local meta is completely reflective of the entire community.

SemperMortis wrote:
Or a rampant newbie who thinks his 10 person local meta is completely reflective of the entire community.

That too. Either way I would say I'm looking forward to our inevitable points changes in the upcoming CA, just to make things that are borderline usable (stormboyz) into more common sights in army lists. I'd be nice to do an actual speed freeks oriented list and see it do relatively well (fix that stupid Vigilus speed freek detachment's wording while they're at it)

 Grimskul wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Or a rampant newbie who thinks his 10 person local meta is completely reflective of the entire community.

That too. Either way I would say I'm looking forward to our inevitable points changes in the upcoming CA, just to make things that are borderline usable (stormboyz) into more common sights in army lists. I'd be nice to do an actual speed freeks oriented list and see it do relatively well (fix that stupid Vigilus speed freek detachment's wording while they're at it)

I have a HORDE of warbikes, deffkoptas, buggies and trukkz waiting for that same day!

I hear the trukkz are now more expensive than rhinos again? Can someone confirm that?

 lolman1c wrote:
I hear the trukkz are now more expensive than rhinos again? Can someone confirm that?

Close, its now 65pts without weapons, so 67 or 69 with 1 or 2 stormbolters. The Trukk is currently useless, I mean priced at 64pts with a big shoota.

So 5pts nets you +1 toughness and +1 save as well as +2 ballistic skill and 4 shots or 8 at 12inch range.