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A Captain upgrade to a CM with a Relic Blade and master of strategy warlord trait, a LT with a Power Axe and Oath, and 3 Scout Squads is 303 pts, gets you a net of 3cp, a better warlord trait, a relic, bodies on the table, and could still use the UM supplement with successor traits!

Other than the beefy Guilliman body and the charge rerolls, which are questionable in an army that prefers to shoot most of the time (you can build for melee, but... why UM then?). You save 47pts, so you could upgrade the Scouts to Tacs or throw heavy weapons on or even an apothecary to help keep those characters up.. not to mention the rest of the slots in the Batallion.

Guilliman not really offering anything over a Batallion is kind of a weak spot for him. He's by no means a weak choice, but I don't think he's the most competitive anymore.

 Stux wrote:
The aura size really isn't as big a deal as you're making out Breton. Guilliman was primarily used as a parking lot anyway, and I have no issue keeping my Dark Angels gunline in 6" of Azrael and a lieutenant.

I'm not saying the aura is a big deal. He's a beat stick too. And gives 3CP. And reincarnates. I was using Calgar/LT before he came down in price because I already had priorities other than his aura. I'm saying making the demonstrably false claim you can get the same aura for cheaper when you can't is something of a big deal.

Breton wrote:

 Stux wrote:
The aura size really isn't as big a deal as you're making out Breton. Guilliman was primarily used as a parking lot anyway, and I have no issue keeping my Dark Angels gunline in 6" of Azrael and a lieutenant.

I'm not saying the aura is a big deal. He's a beat stick too. And gives 3CP. And reincarnates. I was using Calgar/LT before he came down in price because I already had priorities other than his aura. I'm saying making the demonstrably false claim you can get the same aura for cheaper when you can't is something of a big deal.

Except your counting the cost of all of the charictors, you already have to take 2 of them as tax hq's for a battalion.

He compaired to 2 captains is a lot of points, not OMG terrible but I doubt he's worth it given the ability to either target charictors or just pump out targeted MW some lists now have.
He'll probably see more play outside of marine's than in them i suspect.

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Stux wrote:
The aura size really isn't as big a deal as you're making out Breton. Guilliman was primarily used as a parking lot anyway, and I have no issue keeping my Dark Angels gunline in 6" of Azrael and a lieutenant.

I'm not saying the aura is a big deal. He's a beat stick too. And gives 3CP. And reincarnates. I was using Calgar/LT before he came down in price because I already had priorities other than his aura. I'm saying making the demonstrably false claim you can get the same aura for cheaper when you can't is something of a big deal.

Except your counting the cost of all of the charictors, you already have to take 2 of them as tax hq's for a battalion.

He compaired to 2 captains is a lot of points, not OMG terrible but I doubt he's worth it given the ability to either target charictors or just pump out targeted MW some lists now have.
He'll probably see more play outside of marine's than in them i suspect.

No, I'm counting Square Inches of Aura. You can make a list with Telion and Chronus and not have a single aura for the price of what... a gravis captain?. But his claim was Aura per cost, so that's what I counted. You folks keep wanting to turn it into a he's too good or not good enough argument - I'm just counting square inches of relatively objective fact.

watching one of the reviews on a lore front looks like it's offical Cato Sicirus is back in charge of 2nd company. I suspected that would be the case after they unceramoniously killed Acheran in Shadowspear (seriously how many people even NOTICED that? )

I'm sorry Breton, but the biggest weakness of the new Astartes is still numbers and durability.

Guilliman is useful, no question. However the downside to needing further characters, many of whom are quite expensive (in particular if running Primaris) means that you ultimately end up with a smaller army and less assets, and an aura that you can replicate with cheaper, mandatory HQs.

And it's not like Calgar is a slouch.

 Ishagu wrote:
and an aura that you can replicate with cheaper, mandatory HQs.

OK. Please show us the list that provides 450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit, bonuses to charges and advances, also containing 113 square inches of reroll all hits and 1's to wound for UM, that costs less than 350 points and a 6CP Swing.

The HQ's aren't mandatory. As mentioned you can fill the HQ's with Telion and Chronus for the cost of about a Gravis Captain. Also, repeating TWO false statements - "for cheaper" and "Mandatory" does not make either true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
watching one of the reviews on a lore front looks like it's offical Cato Sicirus is back in charge of 2nd company. I suspected that would be the case after they unceramoniously killed Acheran in Shadowspear (seriously how many people even NOTICED that? )

I'm surprised by that. I didn't think they wanted the generic company of the generic chapter to have a named captain. I expected them to leave Sicarius Floating as a special Captain or some such. Guilliman/Calgar's personal trouble shooter or some such.

Breton wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
and an aura that you can replicate with cheaper, mandatory HQs.

OK. Please show us the list that provides 450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit, bonuses to charges and advances, also containing 113 square inches of reroll all hits and 1's to wound for UM, that costs less than 350 points and a 6CP Swing.

The HQ's aren't mandatory. As mentioned you can fill the HQ's with Telion and Chronus for the cost of about a Gravis Captain. Also, repeating TWO false statements - "for cheaper" and "Mandatory" does not make either true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
watching one of the reviews on a lore front looks like it's offical Cato Sicirus is back in charge of 2nd company. I suspected that would be the case after they unceramoniously killed Acheran in Shadowspear (seriously how many people even NOTICED that? )

I'm surprised by that. I didn't think they wanted the generic company of the generic chapter to have a named captain. I expected them to leave Sicarius Floating as a special Captain or some such. Guilliman/Calgar's personal trouble shooter or some such.

I can get re rolls in many ways thought the book. Stratagems, abilities, extra HQs.

The 12" aura is really not a big deal I'm afraid. Especially as I can increase the auras of generic characters though options in the new books. For free.

I would rather bring an additional unit than gain that 12" aura that I don't care about.
It's more beneficial for Knights than Marines, ironically.

Breton wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
and an aura that you can replicate with cheaper, mandatory HQs.

OK. Please show us the list that provides 450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit, bonuses to charges and advances, also containing 113 square inches of reroll all hits and 1's to wound for UM, that costs less than 350 points and a 6CP Swing.

The HQ's aren't mandatory. As mentioned you can fill the HQ's with Telion and Chronus for the cost of about a Gravis Captain. Also, repeating TWO false statements - "for cheaper" and "Mandatory" does not make either true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
watching one of the reviews on a lore front looks like it's offical Cato Sicirus is back in charge of 2nd company. I suspected that would be the case after they unceramoniously killed Acheran in Shadowspear (seriously how many people even NOTICED that? )

I'm surprised by that. I didn't think they wanted the generic company of the generic chapter to have a named captain. I expected them to leave Sicarius Floating as a special Captain or some such. Guilliman/Calgar's personal trouble shooter or some such.

in fairness a lot of the generic companies have the named HQ choice. the space wovles are another example.

 Ishagu wrote:


I can get re rolls in many ways thought the book. Stratagems, abilities, extra HQs.

The 12" aura is really not a big deal I'm afraid. Especially as I can increase the auras of generic characters though options in the new books. For free.

I would rather bring an additional unit than gain that 12" aura that I don't care about.
It's more beneficial for Knights than Marines, ironically.

I'm sorry, that STILL wasn't your claim. You seem to have some sort of mental block with defending the things you say are true and then changing what you said when you can't.. I'm still waiting - Surely someone who plays at the highest levels of the highest tournaments can manage some of the lowest level of the lowest geometry class and some basic addition - 450 square inches of 1 to hit, and bonus Advance/Charge containing 113 square inches of all hits, and 1's to wound for less than 350 points and 6CP. Go.

Strange that no one is talking about Bobby G's new warlord trait which i think is a huge improvement from his old one seeing Tiggy can replicate that one with a spell.

Bobby is still a beat stick and i would argue that he became a bigger one after the changes.

For me personally he is almost a "auto include" seeing i play a moving castle style of game.

Currently i am super tempted to pair Bobby with Vanguard Vets with chainswords and shields.

Al Haquis wrote:
Strange that no one is talking about Bobby G's new warlord trait

Nobody wants to tip off people to the Heroic Intervention Spam whining before they absolutely have to.

Yes, I know I'm 2" away from everything you have.

No I'm not charging.

OK charging is done.

Heroic Intervention time.

Here I come

Everything Heroically Intervenes.

And Gets Shock Assault because of it.

Fight Phase!

People already hated the Characters Heroically Intervening all the way across the board because the rule stupidly didn't specify any required relationship to a pre-existing or newly created close combat. Now it gets to be EVERYTHING.

And now we can agree Breton that Bobby G is quite viable and allows for a new tactic that didn't exist on this scale before.

Basically Bobby was and is a auto take in my traveling tournament lists.

Al Haquis wrote:
And now we can agree Breton that Bobby G is quite viable and allows for a new tactic that didn't exist on this scale before.

Basically Bobby was and is a auto take in my traveling tournament lists.

Nah, he's not auto take. He's not bad. Nothing is auto-take. The closest is probably Intercessors or Tacticals.

I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.

 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.

I'm still waiting for that 450 square inches of aura cheaper than 350 points and 6CP.

Breton wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.

I'm still waiting for that 450 square inches of aura cheaper than 350 points and 6CP.

That aura isn't worth the extra points and extra detachment slot over Calgar and a Lieutenant.

I'm not saying they can replicate it. I'm saying it's not worth it.

You go right ahead and use Guilliman. I'll use him too, I love the model and I think his cc ability is still a force on the tabletop. I just feel he's not the optimum choice, and if I'm building a very specific, hight optimisation list, then I won't be taking him.

Of course I could be all wrong. That's why I'm going to be testing the unit against a variety of opponents.

I just happen to know that the 12" aura hasn't been particularly beneficial for me in my many games with the Primarch.

 Ishagu wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.

I'm still waiting for that 450 square inches of aura cheaper than 350 points and 6CP.

That aura isn't worth the extra points and extra detachment slot over Calgar and a Lieutenant.

I'm not saying they can replicate it. I'm saying it's not worth it.

]That is incorrect. You said - multiple times - you could get the same aura for cheaper.

You go right ahead and use Guilliman. I'll use him too, I love the model and I think his cc ability is still a force on the tabletop. I just feel he's not the optimum choice, and if I'm building a very specific, hight optimisation list, then I won't be taking him.
Of course I could be all wrong. That's why I'm going to be testing the unit against a variety of opponents.

I just happen to know that the 12" aura hasn't been particularly beneficial for me in my many games with the Primarch.

Well I suppose all I can say to that is...

 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?

I mean, hell, I don't even play at the highest levels of the highest tournaments and I enjoy a nice 12" aura. Maybe you just need to play more?

https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2019/08/10/warhammer-40k-codex-supplement-ultramarines-review/

so a codex review thas actually written, for those who don't wanna listen to a hour long video

@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.

 Ishagu wrote:
@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.

450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit doesn't matter?

 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?

Also, if the UM only 6” aura was all that mattered why were you talking about Imperium Soup?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah okay...we get it - you don't like gman. We are talking about competitive builds. People bring the best stuff.

If one unit is obviously 'the best' to the degree that is an auto-take (aside mandatory troops and HQs) then that's crap balancing.

Breton wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.

450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit doesn't matter?

 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?

Also, if the UM only 6” aura was all that mattered why were you talking about Imperium Soup?

Yes 450 square inches of reroll 1's doesn't matter if your used to playing everything within the 6 inch bubble anyway.

Breton wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.

450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit doesn't matter?

 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?

Also, if the UM only 6” aura was all that mattered why were you talking about Imperium Soup?

I mentioned the Soup because a somewhat niche Guilliman + Knights list is not affected and actually saved 50 points.

He's strictly worse for actual Ultramarines

 Ishagu wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.

450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit doesn't matter?

 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?

Also, if the UM only 6” aura was all that mattered why were you talking about Imperium Soup?

I mentioned the Soup because a somewhat niche Guilliman + Knights list is not affected and actually saved 50 points.

He's strictly worse for actual Ultramarines

That's not what "strictly worse" means.

What does it mean?

 Ishagu wrote:
What does it mean?

Strictly worse means there is, in isolation, no possible scenario where the object that is "strictly worse" than something else is better. There are scenarios, however niche, where the new Guilliman is better for Ultramarines than the old Guilliman. I'd agree that new Guilliman is a lot worse than before for pure Ultramarine players, but not strictly worse.

In Defense of Bobby

He takes up a detachment and you need a second detachment with characters anyway, right?

That situation is greatly changed. Previously you'd never take a chaplain or a librarian, but now they're set to provide significant aid. Therefore you can add utility to the army without duplicating abilities.

UM can walk and gun by turn 2. Bobby buffs charging. UM still get the bonus attack. Pushing UM forward into melee can be viable and at the same time you're able to make sure Bobby gets full use of his profile.

 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.

>Says Roboute is inferior to other combinations
>thinks Reivers are good and people need to L2P

Pick one, dude

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.

>Says Roboute is inferior to other combinations
>thinks Reivers are good and people need to L2P

Pick one, dude

Lol this made me laugh. Touché