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 ClockworkZion wrote:


You've created you're own idea of what you think 40k should be, and instead of admitting you're pigeonholing the setting you keep trying to claim that every single call back to that old lore is somehow not in line with the very setting that is built on that lore. Even 30k's lore is built on a lot of stuff from Rogue Trader that most fans thought they'd never get back.

You can make up excuses all day and all night but the fact is you've created this problem for yourself and instead of trying to address you own failing headcanon you keep doubling down and blaming GW for doing it wrong.

Even when people hold your hand and explain how you can swap stuff around and do things to change how the models look you double down on the leg posability (reminder for those of us who've been playing a while, if you wanted customized leg poses you chopped the sucker off and built the missing bits out of green stuff so don't pretend this is a new problem) while ignoring how more natural the poses look and how the body line is more fitting than it used to be.

I did not create ANYTHING. I used the 3rd-7th ed 40k fluff, the one that I prefer. You know, preferences, stuff that seems forbidden over here. You can run in circles as much as you want, but tech was introduced and presented in specific ways, and depicting a specific setting, and these ways have been thrown out in order to re-make the whole marine line. You can like it, I don't.

And we can swap heads and shoulder pads as well.

I don't care. I can modify Plague Marines because the excesses are balanced by other excellent elements the minis have. Primaris are not worthy my time in that regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
say.. are those... HOVER PANELS on the underside of the sled?

Sammael's got a jetbike. :shrug:

which is specificly stated to be old heresy era tech, I don't think we've ever been told the providance of Logan's sled

Sammael's Jetbike rarity adds to the a-grav rarity point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


I stand by my earlier point: you (and others) have built a littld mental box that says what a Space Marine "should" be and since GW has decided to use a bigger box that your box fits inside of you've blamed them for thinking outside of your box when all they're trying to do is give a larger box of ideas to play in.

And you should stop. It's perfectly legitimate to support a revamp of the line and to appreciate the new fluff. But it should be easy to understand that other's preferences have root in the older fluff and such older fluff can be thr preferred one. Stop calling it "headcanon". It's at best, disingenuous.
Seriously, this thread is surreal. There is not even the attempt to convince you that primaris are X or Y, we are just trying to legitimate our point of view. It's like talking with zealots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Kaiyanwang wrote:Again, Guilliman pushing for advancements is made to give fluff to these new models, but IMHO makes the setting less interesting. Land speeders were just 1-2 models, the way they were spammed on the table is not a valid point.

There was at least 4 variant hulls of Land Speeder (standard, Storm, Tempest, and the Dark Angel one - the Darkshroud, was it?). And in most sources I can find, they're no rarer than Land Raiders. Hell, they don't even seem rarer than Predators and Vindicators.
For all the talk of them being rarer, it doesn't really come across in how many are depicted (again, not even on tabletop).

1) it's just the LS, not other tanks
2) funny that you introduce the Dark Angels - they are supposed to have more a-grav, like Sammael's last jetbike. a-grav everywhere taints a bit their flluff too.

You did create something: a definition of ehat you think a Marinenshould be. If you hadn't you wouldn't be griping about all the ways the Phobos and grav tank stuff doesn't fit that definition.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You did create something: a definition of ehat you think a Marinenshould be. If you hadn't you wouldn't be griping about all the ways the Phobos and grav tank stuff doesn't fit that definition.

And that definions has roots in the old fluff.
It's perfectly legitimate to state "I love the new fluff! It's an improvement!".
But what you are trying to do is rather "the old fluff never existed. Also, we always been at war with Eastasia".

Cute, we are now trying to apply 1984 to lore discussions.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They can say plasma is rare, but until restrictions go in the game, its not rare.

my point is that things fluffed as rare being common is the NORM in 40k

There can be different levels of rarity, obviously. I'm not sure if Plasma tech is 'rare' or that it's just not well understood or if the forgeworlds capable of producing it en masse are rare. Hive gangs can get plasma weapons, whereas the Dark Angels have only one personal jetbike.

Level of tech application could be an issue too. For anti-grav, it could be a simple matter to get a servo skull to float, but as mass increases the level of sophistication might increase dramatically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You did create something: a definition of ehat you think a Marinenshould be. If you hadn't you wouldn't be griping about all the ways the Phobos and grav tank stuff doesn't fit that definition.

So we should just ignore precedent and move on like nothing has happened? 25 odd years of marines manifesting very consistently and we just toss it, huh? No thank you.

Except the hobby ignores changes to the lore all the time.

Or is Leman Russ still the size of a normal Marine and did the Heresy end in Horus' command bunker?

Heck in 2nd edition Uriah Jacobus died in a plague infested swamp but in 5th he was still alive and kicking.

Stuff changes all the tims and if you're resisting change for the sake of resisting change then you'll never really be happy with snything they do.

Heck we can sit here and quote Jes talking abouy his thoughts involving designing good and evil space wizards all day but if you've chosen to dislike the new Marine before even looking at the lore or seeing why the designers changed how they approach the designs then we can't make you like them.

Phobos armour is clearly an update on the classic scout designs (visors and all) while unifying the statline with the rest of the army (3+ save instead of a 4+). It doesn't look like a classic Marine because it's not supposed to look like a classic Marine. It's supposed to be an evolution of the old carapace armour to reflect the more modular MkX design. That's why they have power boots instead of flared greaves like standard Marines.

I mean, complain about shoulder pads and the like all you want, but if you put a Phobos armoured mini next to a Scout mini and asked someone who new nothingnof the hobby to pick out the Space Marine they'd pick the Phobos model everytime.

Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Cute, we are now trying to apply 1984 to lore discussions.

Everything in Dakka is layered, we are all gentlemen and scholars over here.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

Importance is relative to the person reading it, duh.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

Importance is relative to the person reading it, duh.

Im afraid it cant be waved away that easily, but nice try. Faction-wide patterns repeated consistently for 25 years have more conceptual inertia than a single model whose rules are seldom updated.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Cute, we are now trying to apply 1984 to lore discussions.

Everything in Dakka is layered, we are all gentlemen and scholars over here.

Using what cock-and-bull definition of those words?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Cute, we are now trying to apply 1984 to lore discussions.

Everything in Dakka is layered, we are all gentlemen and scholars over here.

Using what cock-and-bull definition of those words?

Ok, not you then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

Importance is relative to the person reading it, duh.

But for that person can be important. Hence the whole "what bothers me about primaris design".

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

Importance is relative to the person reading it, duh.

Im afraid it cant be waved away that easily, but nice try. Faction-wide patterns repeated consistently for 25 years have more conceptual inertia than a single model whose rules are seldom updated.

You waived it off with the same tone, so I was merely returning the favor.

And take a step back from comparing a Phobos Marine to a Tactical and compare it to the unit it's replacing, the Scout, and take a good look at the elements they share and tell me which one looks more like a Marine. And be honest about it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

Importance is relative to the person reading it, duh.

Im afraid it cant be waved away that easily, but nice try. Faction-wide patterns repeated consistently for 25 years have more conceptual inertia than a single model whose rules are seldom updated.

You waived it off with the same tone, so I was merely returning the favor.

And take a step back from comparing a Phobos Marine to a Tactical and compare it to the unit it's replacing, the Scout, and take a good look at the elements they share and tell me which one looks more like a Marine. And be honest about it.

While the phobos might be replacing scouts, it has none of the flavor or even the feel of the model it's replacing at all. The whole primaris line in fact has virtually no soul, they feel like just add water, ready to battle super soldiers that are just there. Marines, you have a clear path of experience and build up, even the different set ups of the scouts told stories of their levels of experience and personal growth. Going from sniper scouts, to ones with bolters, to shotguns and CCW armed scouts, to being mounted one a speeder storm to having scout bikes.

These phobos marines, have no such story, they are all bad ass supermans sprung straight from the tube ready to rock, no growth, no feeling, no soul really just completely expendable super men, like Sigmarines. Which is probably what they are going for but it's a definite loss of character into bland, run of the mill sci fi supermen, hell even Master Chief from Halo has more riveting backstory.

Now, if you don't mind that loss of flavor and feel, that's completely fine, but some do lament how bland these numarines feel. So they may be lovely to look at, but they have no depth of character.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

While the phobos might be replacing scouts, it has none of the flavor or even the feel of the model it's replacing at all. The whole primaris line in fact has virtually no soul, they feel like just add water, ready to battle super soldiers that are just there. Marines, you have a clear path of experience and build up, even the different set ups of the scouts told stories of their levels of experience and personal growth. Going from sniper scouts, to ones with bolters, to shotguns and CCW armed scouts, to being mounted one a speeder storm to having scout bikes.

These phobos marines, have no such story, they are all bad ass supermans sprung straight from the tube ready to rock, no growth, no feeling, no soul really just completely expendable super men, like Sigmarines. Which is probably what they are going for but it's a definite loss of character into bland, run of the mill sci fi supermen, hell even Master Chief from Halo has more riveting backstory.

Now, if you don't mind that loss of flavor and feel, that's completely fine, but some do lament how bland these numarines feel. So they may be lovely to look at, but they have no depth of character.

This is all total bs.The primaris are recruited just like marines of the old, and they gain experience going through different combat roles just like the marines of the old. There is literally a section of detailing a whole career of a primaris battle brother in the new codex.

Nice flanderization of lore to make claims about the Vanguard units (who are trainees who have a black carapace) and are barely more trained than scouts themselves.

Let's not even forget that a number of the defrosted Primaris have memories of the old Imperium and have to live with a far worse future than the world they lived in. Or how about the Grey Shields who were excited to meet their gene-breathren only to be shunned for existing or being told that they need to go guard a warp rift instead.

And what about the fact the psycho indoctrinated training Cawl gave those first Primaris was hardly a replacement for real world experiance amd it took a 200 year crusade/time jump to fix it.

Lastly, define "soul". Because no one is able to define whatever they claim models lack while blaming CAD despite some.of their examples of models with "soul" also being CAD produced models (we know CAD had been in use since 5th edition at least). Is it just a codeword for "it's new so it's bad"? Because rhat's all it seems like as someone whonhas no idea what such a vague criticism is supposed to be aimed at.

 Crimson wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

While the phobos might be replacing scouts, it has none of the flavor or even the feel of the model it's replacing at all. The whole primaris line in fact has virtually no soul, they feel like just add water, ready to battle super soldiers that are just there. Marines, you have a clear path of experience and build up, even the different set ups of the scouts told stories of their levels of experience and personal growth. Going from sniper scouts, to ones with bolters, to shotguns and CCW armed scouts, to being mounted one a speeder storm to having scout bikes.

These phobos marines, have no such story, they are all bad ass supermans sprung straight from the tube ready to rock, no growth, no feeling, no soul really just completely expendable super men, like Sigmarines. Which is probably what they are going for but it's a definite loss of character into bland, run of the mill sci fi supermen, hell even Master Chief from Halo has more riveting backstory.

Now, if you don't mind that loss of flavor and feel, that's completely fine, but some do lament how bland these numarines feel. So they may be lovely to look at, but they have no depth of character.

This is all total bs.The primaris are recruited just like marines of the old, and they gain experience going through different combat roles just like the marines of the old. There is literally a section of detailing a whole career of a primaris battle brother in the new codex.

Oh man,did they write one thing to try and make primaris feel like they have personality ? Then it must be gospel then ! I think your response is total BS, while we're calling stuff BS. Please do though, tell me all this level of personal growth they go through, please I'm excited to hear it. As in all the books I have that have primaris, they say nothing of this at all. I have to think that any such rot placed in the new marine codex is simply them trying to mimic oldmarine backstory and hoist it on the primaris and say " Look, they has character see !! ".

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

While the phobos might be replacing scouts, it has none of the flavor or even the feel of the model it's replacing at all. The whole primaris line in fact has virtually no soul, they feel like just add water, ready to battle super soldiers that are just there. Marines, you have a clear path of experience and build up, even the different set ups of the scouts told stories of their levels of experience and personal growth. Going from sniper scouts, to ones with bolters, to shotguns and CCW armed scouts, to being mounted one a speeder storm to having scout bikes.

These phobos marines, have no such story, they are all bad ass supermans sprung straight from the tube ready to rock, no growth, no feeling, no soul really just completely expendable super men, like Sigmarines. Which is probably what they are going for but it's a definite loss of character into bland, run of the mill sci fi supermen, hell even Master Chief from Halo has more riveting backstory.

Now, if you don't mind that loss of flavor and feel, that's completely fine, but some do lament how bland these numarines feel. So they may be lovely to look at, but they have no depth of character.

This is all total bs.The primaris are recruited just like marines of the old, and they gain experience going through different combat roles just like the marines of the old. There is literally a section of detailing a whole career of a primaris battle brother in the new codex.

Oh man,did they write one thing to try and make primaris feel like they have personality ? Then it must be gospel then ! I think your response is total BS, while we're calling stuff BS. Please do though, tell me all this level of personal growth they go through, please I'm excited to hear it. As in all the books I have that have primaris, they say nothing of this at all. I have to think that any such rot placed in the new marine codex is simply them trying to mimic oldmarine backstory and hoist it on the primaris and say " Look, they has character see !! ".

If you're going to criticize the lore you should actually read it instead of just quoting /tg/.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

While the phobos might be replacing scouts, it has none of the flavor or even the feel of the model it's replacing at all. The whole primaris line in fact has virtually no soul, they feel like just add water, ready to battle super soldiers that are just there. Marines, you have a clear path of experience and build up, even the different set ups of the scouts told stories of their levels of experience and personal growth. Going from sniper scouts, to ones with bolters, to shotguns and CCW armed scouts, to being mounted one a speeder storm to having scout bikes.

These phobos marines, have no such story, they are all bad ass supermans sprung straight from the tube ready to rock, no growth, no feeling, no soul really just completely expendable super men, like Sigmarines. Which is probably what they are going for but it's a definite loss of character into bland, run of the mill sci fi supermen, hell even Master Chief from Halo has more riveting backstory.

Now, if you don't mind that loss of flavor and feel, that's completely fine, but some do lament how bland these numarines feel. So they may be lovely to look at, but they have no depth of character.

This is all total bs.The primaris are recruited just like marines of the old, and they gain experience going through different combat roles just like the marines of the old. There is literally a section of detailing a whole career of a primaris battle brother in the new codex.

Oh man,did they write one thing to try and make primaris feel like they have personality ? Then it must be gospel then ! I think your response is total BS, while we're calling stuff BS. Please do though, tell me all this level of personal growth they go through, please I'm excited to hear it. As in all the books I have that have primaris, they say nothing of this at all. I have to think that any such rot placed in the new marine codex is simply them trying to mimic oldmarine backstory and hoist it on the primaris and say " Look, they has character see !! ".

If you're going to criticize the lore you should actually read it instead of just quoting /tg/.

I've got hundreds of dollars worth of books with none of this character giving fluff in it, I'm not going to buy yet another book because one person claims it gives primaris marines personality finally. As for the books, the dark imperium books are painful to read and I will not waste my time that way. I know enough of their fluff to know it sucks, you want to go ahead and buy me this stuff and send it to me to change my mind, be my guest.

Edit: Let me clarify to say as I feel like the pro primaris crowd doesn't read back to understand where someone is coming from. I like the primaris, look wise, I have some in my Deathwatch. I think their lore sucks, I think its worse than oldmarines and they are a relatively vapid creation even if they can do well on the table top and look better. If someone can't accept the fact that people don't like them, you need to get real, it's opinion as is so much we say on here. Everyone has the right to criticize things they don't like. Just like you have the right to love them beyond all reason. Me, or anyone saying they suck in some way or another doesn't somehow devalue them to someone who cherishes them.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I've got hundreds of dollars worth of books with none of this character giving fluff in it, I'm not going to buy yet another book because one person claims it gives primaris marines personality finally. As for the books, the dark imperium books are painful to read and I will not waste my time that way. I know enough of their fluff to know it sucks, you want to go ahead and buy me this stuff and send it to me to change my mind, be my guest.

It's in the main codex.

I suspected you were acting in bad faith in order to troll for attention and this cements it: you don't do any research and come wading into a discussion like arguing from ignorance makes you an expert on anything. Go sort yourself out.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I've got hundreds of dollars worth of books with none of this character giving fluff in it, I'm not going to buy yet another book because one person claims it gives primaris marines personality finally. As for the books, the dark imperium books are painful to read and I will not waste my time that way. I know enough of their fluff to know it sucks, you want to go ahead and buy me this stuff and send it to me to change my mind, be my guest.

It's in the main codex.

I suspected you were acting in bad faith in order to troll for attention and this cements it: you don't do any research and come wading into a discussion like arguing from ignorance makes you an expert on anything. Go sort yourself out.

I'm not buying a codex for an army I don't play just to debate some random fanboy on the net. It says none of this stuff in the DA codex, that I see, the space wolves dex, that I see or the deathwatch book that I see and have all of. You sir, are the troll here assuming I can only have a say it I have that one book there. So how about you sort yourself out, Sir.

Let me add, as primaris are in all of these books, they are all main books for their understanding. Unless you are claiming the only true word is in the vanilla dex.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I've got hundreds of dollars worth of books with none of this character giving fluff in it, I'm not going to buy yet another book because one person claims it gives primaris marines personality finally. As for the books, the dark imperium books are painful to read and I will not waste my time that way. I know enough of their fluff to know it sucks, you want to go ahead and buy me this stuff and send it to me to change my mind, be my guest.

It's in the main codex.

I suspected you were acting in bad faith in order to troll for attention and this cements it: you don't do any research and come wading into a discussion like arguing from ignorance makes you an expert on anything. Go sort yourself out.

I'm not buying a codex for an army I don't play just to debate some random fanboy on the net. It says none of this stuff in the DA codex, that I see, the space wolves dex, that I see or the deathwatch book that I see and have all of. You sir, are the troll here assuming I can only have a say it I have that one book there. So how about you sort yourself out, Sir.

Of course it's not in those codexes, they didn't have Vanguard units at the time of release!

You are making up reasons to be mad that fail even a basic common sense check. I don't need to be sorted because I've taken the time to read up about what I'm talking about instead of making up things about the current Marine lore and insisting I'm more right because I didn't bother to read the current stuff.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I've got hundreds of dollars worth of books with none of this character giving fluff in it, I'm not going to buy yet another book because one person claims it gives primaris marines personality finally. As for the books, the dark imperium books are painful to read and I will not waste my time that way. I know enough of their fluff to know it sucks, you want to go ahead and buy me this stuff and send it to me to change my mind, be my guest.

It's in the main codex.

I suspected you were acting in bad faith in order to troll for attention and this cements it: you don't do any research and come wading into a discussion like arguing from ignorance makes you an expert on anything. Go sort yourself out.

I'm not buying a codex for an army I don't play just to debate some random fanboy on the net. It says none of this stuff in the DA codex, that I see, the space wolves dex, that I see or the deathwatch book that I see and have all of. You sir, are the troll here assuming I can only have a say it I have that one book there. So how about you sort yourself out, Sir.

Of course it's not in those codexes, they didn't have Vanguard units at the time of release!

You are making up reasons to be mad that fail even a basic common sense check. I don't need to be sorted because I've taken the time to read up about what I'm talking about instead of making up things about the current Marine lore and insisting I'm more right because I didn't bother to read the current stuff.

I never said I was mad, I just said I found them bland, maybe you're mad though. Though it should talk about all the flair and experience in all the other marine primaris units, it doesn't, nor does it say much of anything important about the reivers other than they spread " terror ". So where is all the this depth ? There is 0 there. No one should be expected to own every single book to argue any point, sorry not sorry. You love primaris fine, love them all day and twice on sunday but people can hate them for reasons aside them just being a hater.

All those books are current books they are all current stuff.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

Importance is relative to the person reading it, duh.

Im afraid it cant be waved away that easily, but nice try. Faction-wide patterns repeated consistently for 25 years have more conceptual inertia than a single model whose rules are seldom updated.

You waived it off with the same tone, so I was merely returning the favor.

there's a real point there though. Are you going to address it?

And take a step back from comparing a Phobos Marine to a Tactical and compare it to the unit it's replacing, the Scout, and take a good look at the elements they share and tell me which one looks more like a Marine. And be honest about it.

Weird question, as Scouts look more like Scouts, which is what they're supposed to look like.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I've got hundreds of dollars worth of books with none of this character giving fluff in it, I'm not going to buy yet another book because one person claims it gives primaris marines personality finally. As for the books, the dark imperium books are painful to read and I will not waste my time that way. I know enough of their fluff to know it sucks, you want to go ahead and buy me this stuff and send it to me to change my mind, be my guest.

It's in the main codex.

I suspected you were acting in bad faith in order to troll for attention and this cements it: you don't do any research and come wading into a discussion like arguing from ignorance makes you an expert on anything. Go sort yourself out.

I'm not buying a codex for an army I don't play just to debate some random fanboy on the net. It says none of this stuff in the DA codex, that I see, the space wolves dex, that I see or the deathwatch book that I see and have all of. You sir, are the troll here assuming I can only have a say it I have that one book there. So how about you sort yourself out, Sir.

Of course it's not in those codexes, they didn't have Vanguard units at the time of release!

You are making up reasons to be mad that fail even a basic common sense check. I don't need to be sorted because I've taken the time to read up about what I'm talking about instead of making up things about the current Marine lore and insisting I'm more right because I didn't bother to read the current stuff.

I never said I was mad, I just said I found them bland, maybe you're mad though. Though it should talk about all the flair and experience in all the other marine primaris units, it doesn't, nor does it say much of anything important about the reivers other than they spread " terror ". So where is all the this depth ? There is 0 there. No one should be expected to own every single book to argue any point, sorry not sorry. You love primaris fine, love them all day and twice on sunday but people can hate them for reasons aside them just being a hater.

All those books are current books they are all current stuff.

If you want to argue lore, you should be arguing from the most recent points, not from something written more than two years ago (we know from the studio that the codex was written well in advance of 8th).

Since you can't even bother to do some research, here's the bit that walks us through the career of an Ultramarines Primaris Marine recruited since the chapter gained the ability to make their own Primaris (and those who crossed the Rubric have centuries under their belts meaning they're even more storied than this one was). And yes, with Calgar uncapping the Rubricon stuff (something we all knew was coming) that means that there are plenty of Primaris running around who used to be the Old Marines, who carry that "personality" (what little a loyalist has beyond "Duty" and being a shadow of their Primarch) forward as well:



The codex has more lore as well and if you do even a bit of digging you can find more.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

Importance is relative to the person reading it, duh.

Im afraid it cant be waved away that easily, but nice try. Faction-wide patterns repeated consistently for 25 years have more conceptual inertia than a single model whose rules are seldom updated.

You waived it off with the same tone, so I was merely returning the favor.

there's a real point there though. Are you going to address it?

And take a step back from comparing a Phobos Marine to a Tactical and compare it to the unit it's replacing, the Scout, and take a good look at the elements they share and tell me which one looks more like a Marine. And be honest about it.

Weird question, as Scouts look more like Scouts, which is what they're supposed to look like.

Why should I bother answering your points when you clearly ignore mine?

And while scouts look like Scouts, what part of the models really look like they're Astartes in training? The Phobos models actually look like part of the same larger force and since regular companies can strip down to deploy as Vanguard it means any chapter can adjust their deployment to fit the mission.

Exactly my point though, even in that blurb, which thank you for dropping it for me, I do appreciate it.

They just pick someone and poop him out as a primaris, there is not the same level of growth as oldmarines. They are just picked, made into an instant space marine, placed into phobos squads, then work into regular primaris units.

Says nothing of what all they had to do to even earn being a marine other than he was storied, which fine, that is neither here or nor there.

It is however, to me anyways, less impactful than the old way of marine creation. Where they go through the motions, then get some of the augments, and scout armor and have to go through the many levels of being a scout. Then go through the black carapace and the last bits of being made into a marine as only once going all through the scouts did they earn being a full battle brother.

Now space wolves of course skipped this part, but their induction was much more brutal so their newbies come in as a blood claw with all the stuff and learn in the heat of harshest battle.

That said, they have a lot of character and growth with that. As well the fact marine scout vet sgts were considered the best of the best as they were training the next generation, hence for example why telion was such a good shot in the ultramarines for instance.

So yeah, it's obvious they are trying to mimic how old marines matured their recruits but they are just still making them pretty much instant super soldiers with no real feel of new guy status so it ends up feeling more like go from straight human to super human with little transition, that still feels like a net loss in feel.

They are doing their best to make it mirror old marines but it doesn't feel the same and feels cheaper on the read. Now if you like that, it's fine, but I can see where folks, like myself, don't and find it a bit more lacking in its design.

That said, thank you again for dropping that information, it was appreciated and very nice of you.

Kaiyanwang wrote:I did not create ANYTHING. I used the 3rd-7th ed 40k fluff, the one that I prefer. You know, preferences, stuff that seems forbidden over here.

I'd like to point out that in 3rd-7th, Chapters seemed to have just as many Land Speeders as Land Raiders (in lore, to clarify - tabletop is another beast entirely). They really weren't *that* rare. Maybe Sammael's speeder was unique, maybe Land Speeders were just rarely distributed from Mars and other forge worlds to the Chapters, but they weren't exactly any more priceless or archeotech than Land Raiders were.

Sammael's Jetbike rarity adds to the a-grav rarity point.

Maybe his bike is, but a-grav in general? Not so much, as addressed above.

And you should stop. It's perfectly legitimate to support a revamp of the line and to appreciate the new fluff. But it should be easy to understand that other's preferences have root in the older fluff and such older fluff can be thr preferred one. Stop calling it "headcanon". It's at best, disingenuous.

The problem is when that "older fluff" actually supports the new fluff as well, trying to create this kind of "the old fluff would NEVER approve of this!!" is simply not true. If grav-tech had come out of nowhere, or the Space Marines had NEVER used grav-tech, I'd see your point. But that's not true.
If Space Marines NEVER had mono-armament squads, or squads that broke the 5/10 basis, I'd see that point. But that's not true either.

Seriously, this thread is surreal. There is not even the attempt to convince you that primaris are X or Y, we are just trying to legitimate our point of view. It's like talking with zealots.

You don't need to legitimise your opinions. I can't speak for everyone, but if you had just said your opinions, I wouldn't have argued. I *maybe* would have given a counter-opinion, but I certainly wouldn't have doubted an opinion. What I *am* doubting is your legitimisation of it, which relies on, funnily enough, more opinions. The idea of "what the Space Marine aesthetic is" or "what makes a Space Marine" seem to be less objective than any of us actually thought, which make arguments like "but Space Marines having grav-tech is out of character" less of a legitimate fact and more of a difference of opinion over what we actually think Space Marine aesthetic is.

By trying to legitimise your points, that's what people are arguing against, because your sources for legitimising it aren't exactly solid as bedrock. And yes, I admit that if I have made any claims along the lines of "Primaris Marines are the same as Old Marines", that is my opinion, and I do not seek to legitimise it or claim it as a fact.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There was at least 4 variant hulls of Land Speeder (standard, Storm, Tempest, and the Dark Angel one - the Darkshroud, was it?). And in most sources I can find, they're no rarer than Land Raiders. Hell, they don't even seem rarer than Predators and Vindicators.
For all the talk of them being rarer, it doesn't really come across in how many are depicted (again, not even on tabletop).

1) it's just the LS, not other tanks

Not sure on what you mean on this point? I'm pointing out that Land Speeders weren't that rare at all, considering how many different variants there were and the frequency of them in Space Marine Chapters.

2) funny that you introduce the Dark Angels - they are supposed to have more a-grav, like Sammael's last jetbike. a-grav everywhere taints a bit their flluff too.

Are they? I was aware they had more "relics", which may have included a jetbike, but grav itself? I'd like a source on that, if you please.

Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You did create something: a definition of ehat you think a Marinenshould be. If you hadn't you wouldn't be griping about all the ways the Phobos and grav tank stuff doesn't fit that definition.

So we should just ignore precedent and move on like nothing has happened? 25 odd years of marines manifesting very consistently and we just toss it, huh? No thank you.

Consistently having plenty of Land Speeders?

It would be fine if you were actually acknowledging the precedent of 25 years (plenty of grav-tech, plenty of specialised units, plenty of units that weren't 5/10 men). But you're not, not really, and that's the main argument. You're selectively picking from the 25 years and saying that the stuff you didn't think was important shouldn't be considered nowadays.

The idea of 'what a Marine should be' clearly hasn't been defined well enough that we can even agree on that.

[quote=Insectum7Im afraid it cant be waved away that easily, but nice try. Faction-wide patterns repeated consistently for 25 years have more conceptual inertia than a single model whose rules are seldom updated.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Exactly my point though, even in that blurb, which thank you for dropping it for me, I do appreciate it.

They just pick someone and poop him out as a primaris, there is not the same level of growth as oldmarines. They are just picked, made into an instant space marine, placed into phobos squads, then work into regular primaris units.

Says nothing of what all they had to do to even earn being a marine other than he was storied, which fine, that is neither here or nor there.

It is however, to me anyways, less impactful than the old way of marine creation. Where they go through the motions, then get some of the augments, and scout armor and have to go through the many levels of being a scout. Then go through the black carapace and the last bits of being made into a marine as only once going all through the scouts did they earn being a full battle brother.

Now space wolves of course skipped this part, but their induction was much more brutal so their newbies come in as a blood claw with all the stuff and learn in the heat of harshest battle.

That said, they have a lot of character and growth with that. As well the fact marine scout vet sgts were considered the best of the best as they were training the next generation, hence for example why telion was such a good shot in the ultramarines for instance.

So yeah, it's obvious they are trying to mimic how old marines matured their recruits but they are just still making them pretty much instant super soldiers with no real feel of new guy status so it ends up feeling more like go from straight human to super human with little transition, that still feels like a net loss in feel.

They are doing their best to make it mirror old marines but it doesn't feel the same and feels cheaper on the read. Now if you like that, it's fine, but I can see where folks, like myself, don't and find it a bit more lacking in its design.

That said, thank you again for dropping that information, it was appreciated and very nice of you.

I think you misread that ENTIRE thing. He spent time as a scout and only starts as a Phobos Marine AFTER his black carapace was implanted (where the story starts). It's a walkthrough of how the new Primaris work but it's very similar to how old Marines work. Now you may wonder how that is, but they're still Marines, just a bit taller and with three extra squiggly bits inside.

This will be expanded on more and more as new stuff comes out (my money is on a Gravis update like the Vanguard one come next year).

And Telion is still in the 10th teaching Scouts, but Scouts aren't counted directly as part of the fighting force, so the new codex only counts anyone with a black carapace towards the chapter's limits.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
They just pick someone and poop him out as a primaris, there is not the same level of growth as oldmarines. They are just picked, made into an instant space marine, placed into phobos squads, then work into regular primaris units.

Doesn't it say about him serving as a Neophyte? Aka, a Scout?

His process of recruitment is exactly the same as a classic Marine, until he graduated from Scouthood.

Says nothing of what all they had to do to even earn being a marine other than he was storied, which fine, that is neither here or nor there.

I don't think we can really assume his story was any different to any other Marine aspirant. We heard nothing that indicates otherwise.

It is however, to me anyways, less impactful than the old way of marine creation. Where they go through the motions, then get some of the augments, and scout armor and have to go through the many levels of being a scout. Then go through the black carapace and the last bits of being made into a marine as only once going all through the scouts did they earn being a full battle brother.

Now space wolves of course skipped this part, but their induction was much more brutal so their newbies come in as a blood claw with all the stuff and learn in the heat of harshest battle.

Again, it *does* say he serves as a Neophye, aka, a Scout. He isn't just plonked in power armour. He serves as a Scout, and is then added to a Reiver Squad, not a Devastator Squad.

Because the rest of your post is pretty much based on the argument of "he's never served as a Scout Marine, he's missing that normal bit of flavour", which isn't exactly true, I won't keep making the same point. Suffice to say, he *does* serve as a Scout Marine, like every other one. The only difference is that he is added to a Reiver Squad, not a Devastator Squad, which both makes more and less sense:
More, in that they are still kept in a primarily skirmishing and stealth oriented role
Less, in that if they were sticking to the old formula, they should have joined the Eliminators, not the Reivers. Perhaps they're actually taking a Leif* out of the Space Wolves book, and acknowledging that younger Marines are still more likely to want to get closer and aggressive, and need to be then tempered out by long-range experience?

*Pretty proud of that pun.

That said, thank you again for dropping that information, it was appreciated and very nice of you.

Although it's not my comment, this is welcomed, I'm sure.

as for what he did to earn being a Marine... I'm sorry but thats a BS statement as he went through the exact same chapter recruitment process a normal ultramarine does (which varies from world to world) but GW wanted to show us how a typical Primaris progressed, not show how the Ultramarines recruit their members (which is to be fair the one aspect of marines Ultramarines are actually ATYPICAL of)

In fact I'd argue it indicated MORE character for the Primaris rather then LESS. a old Marine's progress would honestly be kinda dull, starting as a scout he'd then serve as a rifleman in a devestator squad, before being handed a heavy weapon and being allowed to pew pew with the heavy weapons. he'd then be told to put that aside and run around with a jump pack and chain sword. ohh and maybe get to sue a bike or and speeder. before becoming a tactical marine.

the Primaris bit has some intreasting stuff such as the marine being put with agressors until he could learn to chck his hate and agression. (intreastingly this was with the assault company too) so yeah it seems that there's actually MORE room for individual growth in Primaris.