Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs

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**Asherian Command**

Eh. I didn't mind Matt ward, his lore wasn't horrible, some parts of his lore was pretty boring in some places. But overall it was passable.

I think most books that have come out from black library have been pretty good.

Only the War of the Beast would i consider pretty bad... in terms of lore. None of the lore has degraded, but currently it is a bit disjointed with the introduction of the Indomitius Era. As we still don't know the date, or what happened, the lore for this new era has been relatively sparse and small. The gathering storm effects are not as large of a consequence as it should've been as some would say.

Honestly I just want more lore written about the now and the crusade that just happened. And less about the stupid crap of the Horus Heresy or M34 or some random date. We want to know about the now.

**Crimson**

Asherian Command wrote:
Honestly its very annoying but makes sense.

Next up Primaris Psykers. Super powerful....

The different ranks of Librarians still exist in the fluff, but haven't had any meaning in the game for the long time. This could be a chance to do something with that. For example Codiciers (the lowest rank) could operate in squads instead of being characters.

While my poor eldar are left behind with 3rd edition Phoenix Lords and Aspect Warriors.

Perfectly fair. I too wish they would do something with the Eldar. Plastic aspects is the obvious thing, and I'd really would love if they updated the Phoenix Lords into epic primarch-style centrepiece models. And regardless of what one thinks of Ynnead, it is kinda weird how they introduced this new thing, but have not done anything with it. It's still just those three characters.

No basic concept hasn't changed marines, they are just taller. But they have become ultra specialized which is annoying, as marines are supposed to be generalists.

Well, most marine squads were always specialised. That's why we have Devastators, Assault Marines etc instead of everybody just being a Tactical. Also, certainly Intercessors are generalists. They can equip three different sorts of guns for different purposes, they have a versatile grenade launcer and they're decent in close combat, the sergeant being able to equip various melee weapons. Sure, maybe not as flexible as Tactical, but the basic idea is the same.

**Insectum7**

Crimson wrote:

Well, most marine squads were always specialised. That's why we have Devastators, Assault Marines etc instead of everybody just being a Tactical. Also, certainly Intercessors are generalists. They can equip three different sorts of guns for different purposes, they have a versatile grenade launcer and they're decent in close combat, the sergeant being able to equip various melee weapons. Sure, maybe not as flexible as Tactical, but the basic idea is the same.

Compared to Eldar, Marines were way more generalist. Primaris wind up feeling Eldarish because of their limited options. Even "specialist" Squads like Devastators still carry Boltguns, and their Heavy Weapons are quite varied.

The most specialized classic squad is Assault Terminators, and yeah they're pretty niche. Otherwise, options abound. Sternguard are basically Tacticals+1, and Terminators are basically Tacticals+2. The same generalist theory applies.

Intercessors actually do OK againt armor with Stalker Bolt Rifles, but they give up a significant amount of anti-infantry for it. 4-5 Stalkers come out like a Lascannon vs. T7 3+. T8 gets rough for them though.

Edit: The Stalker Bolt Rifle thing is more or less a function of 8th edition. A Bolt Rifle is better than a Krak Grenade against T7 because they have the same to-wound, but the Rifle has a -2 AP instead of -1. It's weird.

**Asherian Command**

I mean assault marines can have flamers, can have jump packs, or not have jump packs, devastators can have any heavy weapons, and bolter marines.

Tactical squads can have any special weapon or heavy weapon.

Terminator Squads can have Assault Cannons, Cyclonic Missiles, or Heavy Flamer. Assault Terminators can use lightning claws or thunder hammers, but as someone said that is the most radically 'specialized' space marine unit because they are supposed to be super elites that is only their job is to get into combat.

Dreadnoughts have like twelve options.

Sternguard and Vanguard have various options and can specailize in various forms of combat.

**Insectum7**

Assault Terminators are the unit with the most specific job title. "Storm these cramped hallways!" Or "Knock out the foot of this Titan". Not that anyone equips them with Lightning Claws, but they can do a number on hordes.

Huh. . . With the new book, +1 to hit Strat, 10 Terminators with LC, 41 attacks on the charge does, .83x.75x.83=21.1 MEQ dead. With reroll 1's to hit and Assault Doctrine 29.5 MEQ dead. Dang.
Fight twice for yuks and they can kill 60 MEQ in a turn. I mean it'd never happen but Jeebus.

Actually UM Thunder Hammer Terminators can one shot a Knight now, easy. Fight twice and they can kill 2 in a round. Bloody hell. Takes 6CP, but they dont need aura support.

**fraser1191**

Insectum7 wrote:
Assault Terminators are the unit with the most specific job title. "Storm these cramped hallways!" Or "Knock out the foot of this Titan". Not that anyone equips them with Lightning Claws, but they can do a number on hordes.

Huh. . . With the new book, +1 to hit Strat, 10 Terminators with LC, 41 attacks on the charge does, .83x.75x.83=21.1 MEQ dead. With reroll 1's to hit and Assault Doctrine 29.5 MEQ dead. Dang.
Fight twice for yuks and they can kill 60 MEQ in a turn. I mean it'd never happen but Jeebus.

Whoops there goes your 30 ork blob

**Insectum7**

Normal Terminators can one shot a Gallant with 3CP. Hot damn.

1 CP +1 to hit
1 CP reroll 1's. UM strat
1 CP Assault Doctrine on the unit. UM strat

31 attacks hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, 4+ to wound , -4 AP, average 2 damage = 24 wounds against T8 3+.

Aargh, scratch that. The stupid sargent Power Sword, haha.

**AngryAngel80**

I don't know, I've found this thread to be informative and stimulating. Even if I don't agree with some of the posters, it's good to talk it out at the least.

The only wrong opinion really is anyone claiming their opinion is fact, or they speak for the majority of people or saying you don't have a right to dislike something, or you can't love it.

Only one person I have seen has stated anything about all of that.

The rest of us are just voicing our issues as honestly, many of us have put decades into this game and it is something we feel strongly about why wouldn't we have feelings about all this ?

**Andykp**

Asherian Command wrote:
I mean assault marines can have flamers, can have jump packs, or not have jump packs, devastators can have any heavy weapons, and bolter marines.

Tactical squads can have any special weapon or heavy weapon.

Terminator Squads can have Assault Cannons, Cyclonic Missiles, or Heavy Flamer. Assault Terminators can use lightning claws or thunder hammers, but as someone said that is the most radically 'specialized' space marine unit because they are supposed to be super elites that is only their job is to get into combat.

Dreadnoughts have like twelve options.

Sternguard and Vanguard have various options and can specailize in various forms of combat.

About that meme, that pattern only looks right because they have ignored the extremis chamber release.. leave that out and it looks like they are following the exact model but but it in and it looks less like a pattern. Personally, vanguard marines fit perfectly with my fluff for my chapter but a psi ops Uber witch type wouldn’t at all., but I think it could be a cool release still if it happened. I just wouldn’t use it in my chapter. Maybe start it as a force from another chapter.

**ClockworkZion**

More than likely the next big release for the Primaris is going to be Gravis based (and maybe we'll see the Suppressors get a kit next codex update in 2021 or so).

I'll be honest: as excited as I was to get the updated codex the staggered release schedule with everything all over the place has lead to me finally tossing my hands up at it and deciding to focus my energy elsewhere for a while. I can't hold my breath forever waiting for GW to get around to releasing the stuff I'm interested in after all.

**Andykp**

ClockworkZion wrote:
More than likely the next big release for the Primaris is going to be Gravis based (and maybe we'll see the Suppressors get a kit next codex update in 2021 or so).

I'll be honest: as excited as I was to get the updated codex the staggered release schedule with everything all over the place has lead to me finally tossing my hands up at it and deciding to focus my energy elsewhere for a while. I can't hold my breath forever waiting for GW to get around to releasing the stuff I'm interested in after all.

I’ll be honest I’m pleased with the release schedule, keeping ahead of things painting wise but then they are releasing the stuff I’m interested in now so makes it a bit easier. Not much interest in gravis. Looking forward to seeing chapter specific releases even though I don’t play them.

**ClockworkZion**

Andykp wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
More than likely the next big release for the Primaris is going to be Gravis based (and maybe we'll see the Suppressors get a kit next codex update in 2021 or so).

I'll be honest: as excited as I was to get the updated codex the staggered release schedule with everything all over the place has lead to me finally tossing my hands up at it and deciding to focus my energy elsewhere for a while. I can't hold my breath forever waiting for GW to get around to releasing the stuff I'm interested in after all.

I’ll be honest I’m pleased with the release schedule, keeping ahead of things painting wise but then they are releasing the stuff I’m interested in now so makes it a bit easier. Not much interest in gravis. Looking forward to seeing chapter specific releases even though I don’t play them.

I keep falling back into hobby paralysis with the Primaris since I don't know what I want for my Fists and I get that niggling feeling if I go in on X then Y will come out which will fit the army even better.

Them being so lopsided right now isn't helping much either.

**Andykp**

Home brew chapter helps but the lopsided thing works for me too, not competitive and have always wanted to play marines more like mobile gun line. Would like some more antitank infantry though. Thought of adding devastators using primaris bodies but wouldn’t work fluff wise. Couldn’t explain the less wounds and attacks.

**Insectum7**

At the risk of sounding like an a**. . .It sounds a lot like you want squads that can mix in some decent anti-tank options, huh?

**ClockworkZion**

Insectum7 wrote:
At the risk of sounding like an a**. . .It sounds a lot like you want squads that can mix in some decent anti-tank options, huh?

I want chunky boys and breacher shields for my Imperial Fists actually.

**Insectum7**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
At the risk of sounding like an a**. . .It sounds a lot like you want squads that can mix in some decent anti-tank options, huh?

I want chunky boys and breacher shields for my Imperial Fists actually.

TH/SS Terminators.

**Andykp**

Insectum7 wrote:
At the risk of sounding like an a**. . .It sounds a lot like you want squads that can mix in some decent anti-tank options, huh?

It would be nice, I think the primaris line is missing that. Don’t mind if it’s a mix or all the same but the old marines are so ugly couldn’t do it. Never said primaris range was perfect, just that it’s clearly space marine.

**ClockworkZion**

Insectum7 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
At the risk of sounding like an a**. . .It sounds a lot like you want squads that can mix in some decent anti-tank options, huh?

I want chunky boys and breacher shields for my Imperial Fists actually.

TH/SS Terminators.

Maybe TH/SS Gravis.

I know I can mix the old and new stuff but honestly the new models are more fun to build and paint because of the large models make it easier to paint the details, while leaving more room for freehand, decals or sculpting custom stuff onto the models.

**BrianDavion**

Brwacher squads could be fun. Maybe A storm shield as a "Cawl pattern" super shot gun

**ClockworkZion**

BrianDavion wrote:
Brwacher squads could be fun. Maybe A storm shield as a "Cawl pattern" super shot gun

Even a cut down breacher pattern auto bolt rifle would be nice. I just want Primaris breachers because a walking wall of shields working as a living fortress advancing on the enemy is basically the most Imperial Fist thing ever.

**BrianDavion**

ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Brwacher squads could be fun. Maybe A storm shield as a "Cawl pattern" super shot gun

Even a cut down breacher pattern auto bolt rifle would be nice. I just want Primaris breachers because a walking wall of shields working as a living fortress advancing on the enemy is basically the most Imperial Fist thing ever.

I thought the most Imperial Fist thing ever was getting bailed out by the Ultramarines? *flees!*

**ClockworkZion**

BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Brwacher squads could be fun. Maybe A storm shield as a "Cawl pattern" super shot gun

Even a cut down breacher pattern auto bolt rifle would be nice. I just want Primaris breachers because a walking wall of shields working as a living fortress advancing on the enemy is basically the most Imperial Fist thing ever.

I thought the most Imperial Fist thing ever was getting bailed out by the Ultramarines? *flees!*

You mean the Smurfs who failed to stand up to the Beast?

**BrianDavion**

ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Brwacher squads could be fun. Maybe A storm shield as a "Cawl pattern" super shot gun

Even a cut down breacher pattern auto bolt rifle would be nice. I just want Primaris breachers because a walking wall of shields working as a living fortress advancing on the enemy is basically the most Imperial Fist thing ever.

I thought the most Imperial Fist thing ever was getting bailed out by the Ultramarines? *flees!*

You mean the Smurfs who failed to stand up to the Beast?

Ohh I'm sorry what first founding chapter was killed off to a man by the Beast?

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Brwacher squads could be fun. Maybe A storm shield as a "Cawl pattern" super shot gun

Even a cut down breacher pattern auto bolt rifle would be nice. I just want Primaris breachers because a walking wall of shields working as a living fortress advancing on the enemy is basically the most Imperial Fist thing ever.

I thought the most Imperial Fist thing ever was getting bailed out by the Ultramarines? *flees!*

You mean the Smurfs who failed to stand up to the Beast?

Ohh I'm sorry what first founding chapter was killed off to a man by the Beast?

Who got eaten by bugs?

**ClockworkZion**

BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Brwacher squads could be fun. Maybe A storm shield as a "Cawl pattern" super shot gun

Even a cut down breacher pattern auto bolt rifle would be nice. I just want Primaris breachers because a walking wall of shields working as a living fortress advancing on the enemy is basically the most Imperial Fist thing ever.

I thought the most Imperial Fist thing ever was getting bailed out by the Ultramarines? *flees!*

You mean the Smurfs who failed to stand up to the Beast?

Ohh I'm sorry what first founding chapter was killed off to a man by the Beast?

The only one with the stones to show up.

**BrianDavion**

ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Brwacher squads could be fun. Maybe A storm shield as a "Cawl pattern" super shot gun

Even a cut down breacher pattern auto bolt rifle would be nice. I just want Primaris breachers because a walking wall of shields working as a living fortress advancing on the enemy is basically the most Imperial Fist thing ever.

I thought the most Imperial Fist thing ever was getting bailed out by the Ultramarines? *flees!*

You mean the Smurfs who failed to stand up to the Beast?

Ohh I'm sorry what first founding chapter was killed off to a man by the Beast?

The only one with the stones to show up.

except they wheren't even fighting the Orks in that deployment. they where off on some incidental mission to appease terran politicans

edit: for what it's worth I do like the Imperial Fists. and they're proably my second favorite first founding codex chapter. this is all in good fun on my part

**Insectum7**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
At the risk of sounding like an a**. . .It sounds a lot like you want squads that can mix in some decent anti-tank options, huh?

I want chunky boys and breacher shields for my Imperial Fists actually.

TH/SS Terminators.

Maybe TH/SS Gravis.

I know I can mix the old and new stuff but honestly the new models are more fun to build and paint because of the large models make it easier to paint the details, while leaving more room for freehand, decals or sculpting custom stuff onto the models.

Just use the statline and convert some Intercessors with Storm shields and Thunder Hammers. You got your 2A and 2A to match the Primaris Statline. He'll just have "Breacher Armor" with a 2+, Shield for 3++, and the Hammer.

**Crimson**

Insectum7 wrote:

Just use the statline and convert some Intercessors with Storm shields and Thunder Hammers. You got your 2A and 2A to match the Primaris Statline. He'll just have "Breacher Armor" with a 2+, Shield for 3++, and the Hammer.

That's actually pretty neat idea!

**Insectum7**

Do it. It'd look cool.

Or just buy a squad of Stormcast Liberators, and you can pretend they're Blood Angles

**Cothonian**

RevlidRas wrote:
I was actually a big fan of the new Primaris models when they first hit. They looked lovely, they gave me a bigger canvas to paint on, and they were a properly imposing semi-truescale update of the classic Tactical Marines.

...

In terms of silhouetting, classic Marines were... Marines. A Tactical Marine, an Assault Marine, and a Devastator Marine all had the same armour, the same proportions, the same gear. So did your Marine characters, from Apothecaries to Captains. They also had the same basic loadout: a boltgun was a boltgun, a bolt pistol was a bolt pistol. This meant that they all shared the same silhouette, which unified the "look" of the army even from a distance; all your blobs of infantry were clearly of a type. This also meant that deviations from that silhouette really stood out; the Librarian's looming hood or the Apothecary's bulky surgery-arm popped out at a glance, as did the Assault Marine's jump pack. The broad standardization of the army helped emphasize its differences. The only full units who totally broke the general Marine mould were Scouts and Terminators, which acted as a clear signal that the latter were really important and tough and the former were small, weak, and sneaky. That effect also applied to special weapons; when everyone else had boltguns, the guy with the melta, plasma, missile launcher, heavy bolter etc really stood out and signaled what that model (and its associated unit) was for.

Primaris Marines inherently damage this silhouetting, because they introduce a new type of Marine. Scouts and Terminators are both pretty rare, specialized units (or are intended to be), and their different silhouettes help them stand out as such, but with Primaris you now have four kinds of Marine "look". The lightly/heavily armoured Scout/Terminator, the Space Marine, and the Primaris. And the Vanguard Primaris, who has its own torso/legs/helmet. And the Aggressor, who is a new kind of big bulky silhouette entirely. And the Suppressor, who's a weird half-way house between Inceptor and Primaris silhouettes. And Centurion, who it's not strictly fair to lump in with Primaris, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm making a point. And the wildly different and obvious special weapons have been largely boiled down to small adjustments to existing guns (both aesthetically and mechanically); does your boltgun have a scope, in which case this squad is static long-ranged gunners, or does it have an extra magazine, in which case this squad is fast-moving anti-infantry? I have yet to meet anyone who can tell different Hellblaster guns apart at a glance. Each unit looks unique, which makes the army seem less unified, and within each unit they all look the same, making it harder to distinguish roles. It's the worst of both worlds.

...

It feels like a lot of the new Primaris units aren't part of a unified plan to update the army's look with a new set of templates and roles, but are just... thrown out of a bucket of ideas. What if this unit had sort-of-Terminator-armour-but-not-really? What if this unit flew and had big guns? What if this other unit flew and had big guns but was sort of different somehow? What if this unit did recon and special ops and sabotage? What if this other unit also did recon and special ops and sabotage, but had smoke grenades and radio packs? What if this third unit also did recon and special ops and sabotage, but had giant mines? There's no templating or standardization, which makes the army feel less like an army and more like a collection of seasonal action figures: Winter Storm Batman, Battle Damage Batman, Disco Fight Batman, etc.

The sections above resonate with me most.

Especially the "what if we bolted this onto that?" As absurd as it may sound, a lot of the Primaris equipment looks a lot more cartoonish compared to it's predecessors. To me at least, the old Landraiders looks sleek and mean compared to the new Repulsors. Whereas the Landraider's weapons look well positioned and integral to the design, the Repulsor has them pasted literally all over it.

Lastly, I kind of miss the far more gothic feel of the old marines designs. The old marines look like they have 10,000 years of pointless rituals stacked upon procedures who's purpose has been long lost to time (which they do.) The primaris lose all of that. Granted, it's more tactically efficient (since when would having a purity seal flapping around in your face help the situation?), but it lacks the esoteric feel of 40k.