Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, you don't understand! Getting a bunch of benefits to shooting units in a Codex where the shooting units are much better than the melee ones is CLEARLY worse than rerolling charge distances!

No, I'm not annoyed at all the poor, martyred Ultramarine players at all...

They have been sub optimal for literally every edition in the game except for what we might as well call the first stage of 8th edition. Where they got a codex first and had a way around chapter tactics not applying to vehicles. By taking units that got a better version of their chapter tactic (fly repuslors) and using the best damage ramp in the game. Realistically - the list struggled mightily against any competitive army that wasn't spamming infantry. Yet - it has received a nerf on the level of ynnari that is extremely unjustified based on the performance of said armies. The core weakness of marines is poor defense (easily ignored defenses) so getting your damage in while you are still standing is extremely important. On the whole defense hasn't been increased at all except through tiny point drops and added wounds to a few units which were severely underperforming defensively.

And your army is still stronger than mine and you're acting like the world has ended.

Zero sympathy mate.

 Eligius wrote:

 Chewie wrote:
So... drop pods.

It's cheaper. Did it go down enough such that we'd start seeing drop pod armies?

The problem with the drop pod is the model: The footprint is too big IF you don't pod in on the first turn.

Maybe you can make one or two work but podding an entire army...I don't know...

Paying 65 points for a drop pod when other armies can Deep strike turn 1 for a psychic power and for 1 cp on turn 2...it is just not good enough. It's like playing a game with a handicap. Drop pods need to do more or cost less. The size of the model isn't really an issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, you don't understand! Getting a bunch of benefits to shooting units in a Codex where the shooting units are much better than the melee ones is CLEARLY worse than rerolling charge distances!

No, I'm not annoyed at all the poor, martyred Ultramarine players at all...

They have been sub optimal for literally every edition in the game except for what we might as well call the first stage of 8th edition. Where they got a codex first and had a way around chapter tactics not applying to vehicles. By taking units that got a better version of their chapter tactic (fly repuslors) and using the best damage ramp in the game. Realistically - the list struggled mightily against any competitive army that wasn't spamming infantry. Yet - it has received a nerf on the level of ynnari that is extremely unjustified based on the performance of said armies. The core weakness of marines is poor defense (easily ignored defenses) so getting your damage in while you are still standing is extremely important. On the whole defense hasn't been increased at all except through tiny point drops and added wounds to a few units which were severely underperforming defensively.

And your army is still stronger than mine and you're acting like the world has ended.

Zero sympathy mate.

That remains to be seen. It's a better tactic than ultra marines and if your super doctrine is decent BT could very well be better than ultra marines.

So drop pods dropped a whole 20 points and now ignores tactical reserves

That's a pretty significant buff

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
So drop pods dropped a whole 20 points and now ignores tactical reserves

That's a pretty significant buff

How about dark matter crystalis and veil of darkness and da jump...they all also ignore the tactical reserves and have a cost of 0 cp (free relic) or 1 cp(additional relic) or the cost of a psyker who has tremendous ultity during the game. It is not even close. The drop pod should be between 30-40 points or just cost CP and work out some special rules for the drop pod (can't hold obejctives and doesn't do anything but get in the way and shoot a storm bolter.) There are also abilities like quicken and warp time which have a similar effect to deep strike (and better in a lot of cases). Maybe if it could deploy within 6" instead of 9" along with the occupants it would be worth those points.

Yeah the buff is significant but drop pods were actually...THAT BAD - that they can be significantly buffed and still not be very good. I find it hard to believe that the people making the rules can't see this. Is there an error in my logic somewhere that I am missing?

It costs 3 ppm for a JP. Drop pod carries ten.

++ 30 points saved

Then you're paying 35 extra points for these things:
++ Blocks stratagems targeting deepstrikers
++ The units that go in can change from game to game
++ Turn 1 deepstrike

Seems reasonable to me.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Chewie wrote:
So... drop pods.

It's cheaper. Did it go down enough such that we'd start seeing drop pod armies?

How much cheaper?

With 1st Turn Drop, reduced Marine costs, reduced Grav Cannon costs, Devastator/Tactical Doctrine and a Grav-centric Stratagem I'm already going to be putting them back in my lists.

63 +2 for storm bolter, so they're 65 now. I don't know what they were before lol

I think that's unchanged since Chapter Approved.

You know, I felt jealous for marines at first, now I just am tired of the emotional roller coaster. For all intents it feels like marines got better, which is good right ? Some units, got worse. Gman has been an issue for a bit, not surprised he's nerfed.

The biggest WTF for me is the Repulsor and Executioner pts rises, it's like GW secretly dislikes their own models.

They go out of their way to not put thought into how to include the new stuff for Death watch, I don't get this at all. Surely some extra points would be fine to take them, just say their SIA doesn't count for the snipers as they have their own, there it's all good.

Still don't think they get access to the transport but its ok as I wanted a rhino type transport and not a razorback type transport. Why GW can't we just get a cheap priamris shaggin wagon to carry bigger squads and/or gravis and be cheap. Is that really too much to ask for ?

GW delayed the old priamris stuff from death watch too until they could incroperate them properly. if I was gonna make a guess a new death watch codex is imminant.

I kind of hope so and yet don't want to pay for a new one as well. I'm vexed on that topic but yeah I can't see them keeping them out forever as they want to sell these models to all the marines, including Deathwatch. I guess I'll just focus on the upgrades I do have access to and buff out some troops and just cross my fingers and toes for the new hotness, eventually.

I just don't know why they couldn't address it as a stop gap in the FAQ and just amend the points and such if needed later.

Though maybe they want to use the vanguard units as part of another Kill team type set up eventually.

Though maybe they want to use the vanguard units as part of another Kill team type set up eventually.

you can bet on this.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
So drop pods dropped a whole 20 points and now ignores tactical reserves

That's a pretty significant buff

How about dark matter crystalis and veil of darkness and da jump...they all also ignore the tactical reserves and have a cost of 0 cp (free relic) or 1 cp(additional relic) or the cost of a psyker who has tremendous ultity during the game. It is not even close. The drop pod should be between 30-40 points or just cost CP and work out some special rules for the drop pod (can't hold obejctives and doesn't do anything but get in the way and shoot a storm bolter.) There are also abilities like quicken and warp time which have a similar effect to deep strike (and better in a lot of cases). Maybe if it could deploy within 6" instead of 9" along with the occupants it would be worth those points.

Yeah the buff is significant but drop pods were actually...THAT BAD - that they can be significantly buffed and still not be very good. I find it hard to believe that the people making the rules can't see this. Is there an error in my logic somewhere that I am missing?

Ohh mother have mercy.. Are you really flogging this dead horse again xeno? Having your units hiding in True T1 DS and being bale to fling a unit across the board is not the same thing... Weird boy doesn't have much utility once he casts da jump does he? He's going to be way in the backfield or out of LOS in order to survive snipers(which you can now ignore with eliminators...?) so smiting doesn't do much not to mention da jump is reliant on a dice roll and is a once per turn gimmick. Besides with omni scramblers/pods, infiltrate dreads you can screen your board so well those things don't really matter anyway.

BrianDavion wrote:
GW delayed the old priamris stuff from death watch too until they could incroperate them properly. if I was gonna make a guess a new death watch codex is imminant.

From your mouth to God's ears.

Just ignore the whinging.

Also Sterling I'm stealing schrodinger's codes.

Walrus good to see you

Xeno it could be worse
Codex. release Date
Black Templars November 2005

I'm still not sure what chapter my primaris are going to be. I've done some paint runs for templars, iron hands and salamanders. Pragmatism tells me that Sallies will likely be the best, but on the 1 in 40,000 chance that in the Imperial Fists/Sons of Dorn supplement templars get primaris crusader squads and something to make them actually decent in combat other than their meme of a chapter tactic they'll likely be my pick. My hope for the Righteous Crusaders doctrine bonus would be "To Wound rolls of an unmodified 6 deal an additional wound". Never going to happen but a man can dream.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It costs 3 ppm for a JP. Drop pod carries ten.

++ 30 points saved

Then you're paying 35 extra points for these things:
++ Blocks stratagems targeting deepstrikers
++ The units that go in can change from game to game
++ Turn 1 deepstrike

Seems reasonable to me.

Jump packs also give you bonus movement. Look at revivers. 20 points to deep strike a 10 man. Your paying 45 points for BS. It is not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
So drop pods dropped a whole 20 points and now ignores tactical reserves

That's a pretty significant buff

How about dark matter crystalis and veil of darkness and da jump...they all also ignore the tactical reserves and have a cost of 0 cp (free relic) or 1 cp(additional relic) or the cost of a psyker who has tremendous ultity during the game. It is not even close. The drop pod should be between 30-40 points or just cost CP and work out some special rules for the drop pod (can't hold obejctives and doesn't do anything but get in the way and shoot a storm bolter.) There are also abilities like quicken and warp time which have a similar effect to deep strike (and better in a lot of cases). Maybe if it could deploy within 6" instead of 9" along with the occupants it would be worth those points.

Yeah the buff is significant but drop pods were actually...THAT BAD - that they can be significantly buffed and still not be very good. I find it hard to believe that the people making the rules can't see this. Is there an error in my logic somewhere that I am missing?

Ohh mother have mercy.. Are you really flogging this dead horse again xeno? Having your units hiding in True T1 DS and being bale to fling a unit across the board is not the same thing... Weird boy doesn't have much utility once he casts da jump does he? He's going to be way in the backfield or out of LOS in order to survive snipers(which you can now ignore with eliminators...?) so smiting doesn't do much not to mention da jump is reliant on a dice roll and is a once per turn gimmick. Besides with omni scramblers/pods, infiltrate dreads you can screen your board so well those things don't really matter anyway.

You can literally cast da jump every turn and it is almost automatic to go off with +3 to cast. Not to mention can be used on 30 man units. Much like DMC on 20 mans. Casting smite with a +3 later in the game is what I would call utility.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Jump packs also give you bonus movement. Look at revivers. 20 points to deep strike a 10 man. Your paying 45 points for BS. It is not worth it.

The goal is to alpha strike hard and control the board. Just the existence of a unit that is threatening in a pod will alter deployment.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So according to BOLS non-white scars marines have lost bike captains

That stinks, but I'm also not shocked.

Wouldn't they still be an option via the index even if the main codex dropped it? Has GW clarified how the new codex interacts with the index?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It costs 3 ppm for a JP. Drop pod carries ten.

++ 30 points saved

Then you're paying 35 extra points for these things:
++ Blocks stratagems targeting deepstrikers
++ The units that go in can change from game to game
++ Turn 1 deepstrike

Seems reasonable to me.

Jump packs also give you bonus movement. Look at revivers. 20 points to deep strike a 10 man. Your paying 45 points for BS. It is not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
So drop pods dropped a whole 20 points and now ignores tactical reserves

That's a pretty significant buff

How about dark matter crystalis and veil of darkness and da jump...they all also ignore the tactical reserves and have a cost of 0 cp (free relic) or 1 cp(additional relic) or the cost of a psyker who has tremendous ultity during the game. It is not even close. The drop pod should be between 30-40 points or just cost CP and work out some special rules for the drop pod (can't hold obejctives and doesn't do anything but get in the way and shoot a storm bolter.) There are also abilities like quicken and warp time which have a similar effect to deep strike (and better in a lot of cases). Maybe if it could deploy within 6" instead of 9" along with the occupants it would be worth those points.

Yeah the buff is significant but drop pods were actually...THAT BAD - that they can be significantly buffed and still not be very good. I find it hard to believe that the people making the rules can't see this. Is there an error in my logic somewhere that I am missing?

Ohh mother have mercy.. Are you really flogging this dead horse again xeno? Having your units hiding in True T1 DS and being bale to fling a unit across the board is not the same thing... Weird boy doesn't have much utility once he casts da jump does he? He's going to be way in the backfield or out of LOS in order to survive snipers(which you can now ignore with eliminators...?) so smiting doesn't do much not to mention da jump is reliant on a dice roll and is a once per turn gimmick. Besides with omni scramblers/pods, infiltrate dreads you can screen your board so well those things don't really matter anyway.

You can literally cast da jump every turn and it is almost automatic to go off with +3 to cast. Not to mention can be used on 30 man units. Much like DMC on 20 mans. Casting smite with a +3 later in the game is what I would call utility.

Have you ever rolled a 1 and a 1 followed by a 2 or a 1...? And also that 30 man unit will not be a 30 man unit if they don't get first turn will they? that +3 becomes a +1/+2 and so on... So you have to invest in a second weird boy to double up on da jump in case of miscast ergo points investment etc. And saying your pod has no utility is just ridiculous... I suppose protecting units T1, giving damn big foot print (to prevent those da jumps you are on about), blocking movement, plus a cheeky bit of dakka on top is not utility. You haven't even played a single game nor have the new codex and yet you are already whinging its garbage because you cant auto win with repulsons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Jump packs also give you bonus movement. Look at revivers. 20 points to deep strike a 10 man. Your paying 45 points for BS. It is not worth it.

The goal is to alpha strike hard and control the board. Just the existence of a unit that is threatening in a pod will alter deployment.

*Sight* I know man.. How people cant see value in so much board control is baffling. Infiltrating dreads, scrambler bubbles, pods on T1... I mean for real!
Nope not good enough, apparently if it costs points and doesn't one shot a knight its hot garbage..

Yeah, if it can't smack a knight back to narnia, get it outta here, it ain't worth it. I'm going to use my old grumblers special rule now " Back in my day, every unit could one shot a knight, dern kids and their weak marine books these days ! "

Have to agree with Xenomancers here, now that I think about it.

Initially I thought all the new stratagems and doctrines and vehicles getting CT were great until I realized they do absolutely nothing to patch up any of the previous Codex:SM's weaknesses, while simultaneously nerfing the only competitive SM build.

IMO there were a few things that made SM not viable in competitive play: range, mobility, and durability. Made matchups like Tau triptide lists literally unwinnable. Guilliman and repulsors at least compensated somewhat for the mobility and range.

But now looking at this new codex, what do we have? In terms of nerfs, Guilliman and Repulsors are straight up a losing list. I get it, even though they weren't even close to top-tier, it's kind of a dumb way to play and build. And if GW + playtesters want SM to play differently, that's fine. But that would also mean that the new codex would have to 1) actually promote a different playstyle, and 2) actually have to be MORE POWERFUL than the previous codex's Guilliman + Repulsors.

So what do we have in terms of buffs/different playstyles?

1) Doctrines. This is a buff to monocodex space marines. But that's not saying much, since monocodex marines were probably on par with grey knights in terms of power and utility (at least, without Guilliman and BA stratagems). But, this means you can't soup. So no knights/cheap guard battalion. This is significant.

2) Stratagems. We have vigilus ported over, and these are now less up front cost for rapid fire and boltstorm, but more costly if you want to continue using them throughout the game. Target sighted was straight up an increase in cost, but understandable since stalker bolt rifles got buffed. But without access to cheap guard/admech battalions that means you're gonna need to start taking double battalion. Which also sucks since marine HQs aren't the most ideal/optimal to take duplicates of, at all really. Transhuman phys is also great, but costs 2 CP and can get played around pretty easily.

3) People keep talking about drop pods, except whatever you can take in drop pods kinda suck. Tactical marines suck, devastator marines suck, veterans suck. Sure, you can alpha strike and maybe clear a screen worth ~33% or less than your points investment, but then next turn they get blown to dust by proportionately cheaper firepower. Imo drop pods only make the SM mirror more cancerous now, since SM screens are trash and expensive (and remember, we can't ally with cheap screens if we want doctrines).

4) Vehicles get CTs, and CTs get buffed overall (mostly). Cool, this should have been how it's been since day 1.

Really the only great buffs imo are that eliminators can be used as anti-tank (but cannot be spammed), auto bolt rifles going to assault 3, and gravis getting buffed by 1 wound. This makes inceptors a lot better (esp since they got slightly cheaper), but not really aggressors, since as Xeno pointed out already Impulsors can't take grav, and repulsors got nerfed. Tbh they could have let aggressors get transported via Impulsors, but just get rid of the fire-twice ability so as to not make UM aggressor bombs problematic. That and maybe reduce the cost of aggressors by a few points/model. And they really missed the mark by not letting Suppressors be taken in squads of 6. That really could have been SM's ticket out of D tier and into B+ tier, and I don't think anyone would have found them problematic.

So taking this all together, what do we have?

An army that still promotes blobbing up with HQ auras to be efficient in killing power, that has gotten their alpha strike buffed, but in order to take advantage of all the buffs cannot take allies, and still has little to no durability/defense. Stratagems are generally more useful, but are also costly, esp when you can't get cheap CP.

TBH, from what we've seen, I predict that the SM playstyle remains the same, just with different units. Key characters for aura abilities, clump up, pray to God you have first turn and don't get matched vs Tau. The question is, will all of this be better than previous Codex's Guilliman + Tanks? I guess according to Xeno probably not, who I think brings up very good points. I guess we will have to wait until IH or IF supplement, since Reecius from FLG says they will be the best chapters.

The +1 melee attack promotes new playstyles though...

I keep needing to read these issues with the new marine book. Am I to understand that unless a new codex will drop and instantly sky rocket to top tier it sucks ? I'd say the books that OP they drop and become that are more the problem than the new marine dex.

As well, we've just started to see phase 2 of codex release. I can't imagine that marines will get things nerfed without that happening to the problem units in other books when their phase 2 drops. It does feel like they want to promote mono dex lists again, and if that keeps going that will only be a net gain for the game. The soup lovers will cry, but the armies abused for their units will be able to avoid needless nerfs because they are taken with everything.

Marines are not auto lose, they just aren't top tier perhaps but then they may be a good contender once books make efforts to make things mono dex.

I guess most of the books in the game are absolute trash as they aren't top tier or even were when the dropped, this game has to be awful sad and upsetting if that is all that will please someone.

I did say I didn't think this book was the OMFG OP !!! that people claimed off the bat, and I don't think its the absolute weak sauce people are saying now either.

Here is an idea, how about we actually see how it does once its out ? Come on people, I haven't been on an emotional roller coaster this steep since the the last season of game of thrones ended, how about we relax, use, then judge.

" She's muh Queen !! "

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So according to BOLS non-white scars marines have lost bike captains

That stinks, but I'm also not shocked.

Wouldn't they still be an option via the index even if the main codex dropped it? Has GW clarified how the new codex interacts with the index?

I am looking right at the datasheet for the Captain on Bike in the new codex right now. I can tell you that, like usual, BOLS is full of more gak than a clogged toilet at a Taco Bell.

4) Vehicles get CTs, and CTs get buffed overall (mostly). Cool, this should have been how it's been since day 1.

Preach.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So according to BOLS non-white scars marines have lost bike captains

That stinks, but I'm also not shocked.

Wouldn't they still be an option via the index even if the main codex dropped it? Has GW clarified how the new codex interacts with the index?

I am looking right at the datasheet for the Captain on Bike in the new codex right now. I can tell you that, like usual, BOLS is full of more gak than a clogged toilet at a Taco Bell.

Yaaaaay! Thank you misinformation

Jinsuk wrote:

3) People keep talking about drop pods, except whatever you can take in drop pods kinda suck.

The same can be said of DE open-topped vehicles. It doesn't stop people bleating endlessly about them.

Drop Pods didn't change in price since CA2018.

They definitely have a use now. I expect some FAQs pretty soon, however

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, you don't understand! Getting a bunch of benefits to shooting units in a Codex where the shooting units are much better than the melee ones is CLEARLY worse than rerolling charge distances!

No, I'm not annoyed at all the poor, martyred Ultramarine players at all...

They have been sub optimal for literally every edition in the game except for what we might as well call the first stage of 8th edition. Where they got a codex first and had a way around chapter tactics not applying to vehicles. By taking units that got a better version of their chapter tactic (fly repuslors) [and using the best damage ramp in the game.

I didn't realize Razorbacks had Fly. Or Tac Squads.

Realistically - the list struggled mightily against any competitive army that wasn't spamming infantry.

Which was, at the time... maybe morty/maggy lists? Other Chaos, IG, and CWE lists were infantry lists.

I realize not all the Codexes were out. So it was only on an even playingfield with such lackluster codexes as *IG* and *CWE*... And this was before a large number of CWE nerfs.

Yet - it has received a nerf on the level of ynnari that is extremely unjustified based on the performance of said armies.

Ynnari nerfs:
-Not really an army anymore
-Can only move/shoot/fight twice once a turn
-Can't move/shoot/fight twice anymore
-Lost Doom use
-Lost other-subfaction keyword
-Character costs more
-Powers went up in points

The Gman nerf is nowhere near as strong as any one of the *three* biggest nerfs Ynnari have had (and deserved).

The core weakness of marines is poor defense (easily ignored defenses) so getting your damage in while you are still standing is extremely important. On the whole defense hasn't been increased at all except through tiny point drops and added wounds to a few units which were severely underperforming defensively.

IH repulsor/other vehicle spam just went up 16%, and halved their degredation on top. That's neither a tiny points drop nor simply adding wounds.
You can pod in Turn 1, for less than previously (albeit for likely too high a cost). That's something else.
Basic Marines went down 1ppm, and Grav went down up to 8ppm. 1ppm on a 14ppm unit is ~7%. That's not tiny. And 20pt Grav Cannons is a meaningful points drop.
A number of Primaris went from 2W to 3W. That's a big change.

I don't think Marines are a ton more durable than they were, but they did get some real improvements in that category.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I should again clarify my stance, because it seems certain people always strawman me:
-Marines were improved, notably, overall.
-It's not clear yet to me (nobody has convinced me and reading the rules hasn't made it obvious to me) if the new rules will make Marines a contender again. It's certainly been a while since they were top-tier.
)

The GMan nerf is the absolute best thing to happen to the codex. It will encourage players to look at other options, playstyles etc and if these don't match up competitively (which no one is in a position to say currently) then they can be adjusted with FAQ/CA since there isn't the GMan crutch to skew the results. Huge thumbs up from me with the direction of this codex.
What's absolute crazy talk is that the SM line hasn't been given a massive boost. For them to be still non-competitive after this it would mean that they would have to had been absolute bottom tier, even way lower than GKs and that's just not true.

And technically, soup is not completely out of the question, you will just be souping different Astartes which to maximize the playstyle of each.

If the point cost on the whirlwind is correct it will look like quite a good unit.

80pts for 2d6 str 6 ap-1 shots that can shoot twice from out of LOS. Even less need for souping in guard and their artillery if this is the case.

If BA also get this I will go and get 2 missile turrets for my rhinos asap so I can play 3 and have ~28 str 6 ap-1 shots for just 240pts to help clear enemy screens. Guard is still a cheaper battalion but I would rather play mono than soup

If BA get the point costs, shock attack and base doctrines I will be happy. If we also get the updated stratagems and reroll wording then it will be amazing.

Just need to find someone to off load my apocalypse guard box, loyal 32, wyvern and mortar squads too if that happens