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Hi,

I'm currently toying with the idea of a Leman Russ variant using missile launchers as main weapon. Mostly because it would fit the fluff of my army and because I like the flexibility of missile and grenade launchers, even if they are not really efficient options math wise. Looking at the Exterminator and Annihilator, I would go for a twin launcher costing 30 points and firing either 2 x 48’’ 8/-2/D6 or 2d6 x 48’’ 4/0/1.

My questions therefore are:
1. Does that sound balanced, points wise?
2. Since it just means slapping a different, well established heavy weapon on the tank, would the Adeptus Mechanicus have a problem regarding Tech Heresy or would this be an acceptable field modification?
3. Does someone have a nice name idea for this variant?

Hi there,

This forum is for questions about how the existing rules work - not for homebrew units.

To answer your questions though, creating custom stuff I would always err on the side of making it higher points than lower. I'd say if you take the annihilator as a starting point and trade the twin Lascannons for a twin Missile Launcher without changing the points that's probably fine balance wise.

If there's no STC then it's heresy, unless Cawl made it. But it could be part of your fluff that its a newly discovered STC.

Ok, thanks. And for the future: which subforum would have been correct?

Proposed Rules

And I'd love to see a missile launcher upgrade. Either as the Calliope, Tulip or Wurfrahmen.

Moved to the proper forum.

Pyroalchi wrote:
Hi,

I'm currently toying with the idea of a Leman Russ variant using missile launchers as main weapon. Mostly because it would fit the fluff of my army and because I like the flexibility of missile and grenade launchers, even if they are not really efficient options math wise. Looking at the Exterminator and Annihilator, I would go for a twin launcher costing 30 points and firing either 2 x 48’’ 8/-2/D6 or 2d6 x 48’’ 4/0/1.

My questions therefore are:
1. Does that sound balanced, points wise?
2. Since it just means slapping a different, well established heavy weapon on the tank, would the Adeptus Mechanicus have a problem regarding Tech Heresy or would this be an acceptable field modification?
3. Does someone have a nice name idea for this variant?

1. 30 pts seems very fair. Battlecannons are probably the most flexible weapon option for Leman Russes, they have a good number of shots, decent AP and damage, making them good against most units if you go ahead and make the conversion and your opponent doesn't let you use the rules I recommend using those rules.
2. I think this would fall under tech heresy, you can just decide that it comes from a recently found blueprint though, let the rule of cool rule.
3. Mars Pattern Leman Russ Dominator. Named so for it's ability to dominate any battlefield through it's dual use as an anti-infantry support platform and a dedicated tank hunter.

2. Cannon-launched missiles already exist, so you can have a regular barrel and just remove/modify the breech. It would be even better to have it in a shell with some propellant to give it the initial kick and then it would fly on its own solid-fuel rocket engine and be guided by an infrared laser or by the missile's own system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM-51_Shillelagh

Cyclone Missile Launchers are pretty much what you're describing as a main weapon, and they're 40 points but arguably overcosted at that level.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Cyclone Missile Launchers are pretty much what you're describing as a main weapon, and they're 40 points but arguably overcosted at that level.

40 pts on an an Astartes. AM ML are 5 pts cheaper than Astartes ML. So it fits that 2x ML would be 10 pts cheaper.

Taurox Missile Launcher is 30pts, and is essentially just a 'twin missile-launcher'.
Doesn't seem unreasonable to mount it on a LRBT chassis; the driver and mechanic may get shot for heresy after the battle is won, but the Commissar may just be too busy while they are exploding xenos scum.

Pyroalchi wrote:

2. Since it just means slapping a different, well established heavy weapon on the tank, would the Adeptus Mechanicus have a problem regarding Tech Heresy or would this be an acceptable field modification?

The Cult Mechanicus is not a single unified faith. There are lots of schools of thought. When the space wolves jury rigged infantry portable lascannons onto their predator tanks, it caused an uproar. The Black Templars did something similar with the crusader. In each instance, it was a jury rigged solution by soldiers on the ground. Field modifications are common and there are acceptable levels of modification: rough terrain mods, air filters and so on.

STC technology is less about complete blue prints for a car (though that exists too) and more likely to be a complete blue print for an engine. Specifically, if will be an engine that was possible to fabricate and suitable for the purpose specified at the place and time of STC blueprint production. This means that most of what the Magi do is authorising new combinations of STC designs they already have. When a Magi wants to build a car, he will consider which STC's and materials are available to him and then design some combination of them with his mechanical knowledge.

TL;DR: I think its entirely reasonable for some Magi somewhere to design the Leman Russ Exhauster- a Russ hull tank based around firing missiles from every sponson and the turret. This might be in response to various factors, a surplus of missiles, a new trend in Imperial Tactica that calls for them, new STC tech that has been uncovered/nicked from the blueskins for a missile guidance system that necessitates field testing.

As far as a field modification, i understand damaged Leman Russes are converted into thunderers in the field, a huge physical change to the tank that changes the way they fight. Running out of battlecannon shells on a hiveworld that produces missile launchers and missiles would provide all the excuse you need,

I'd say maybe you could stack some hellfire missiles or some rocket pods on top, but anything else would be on par with a Manticore and thus, redundant.

 vict0988 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Cyclone Missile Launchers are pretty much what you're describing as a main weapon, and they're 40 points but arguably overcosted at that level.

40 pts on an an Astartes. AM ML are 5 pts cheaper than Astartes ML. So it fits that 2x ML would be 10 pts cheaper.

I'd argue that there should maybe be an upcharge given that russes can double tap. But I'm sure you could land roughly in the ballpark of an appropriate cost and tweak it from there.

As for fluff, you can probably justify a different turret weapon without too much difficulty. Say that the rate at which such vehicles go through missiles makes them hard to supply except among regiments with a proclivity for such weapons. Say it's a rarely-used-but-totally-approved russ variant. Say it's technically a deviation from normal templates but that it got the mechanicus seal of approval (literally) when a company commander requisitioned some modifications to his russes.

Keep in mind that the mechanicus have (more or less) approved jump sentinels with jet boosters, steampunk exosuits, and slapping an ork powerklaw onto a certain commissar because he thought it would look scary. So, at least in the right contexts, it seems to be possible to get away with some fairly major departures from mechanicus dogma.

As slowed as it sounds, use a vindicator.

Rocket tanks are used as Tankhunters generally.
so that would be a fit.

Sounds like a T-34 Calliope.

Don't have any idea for stats, but I want a LRBT like this.

 Stormonu wrote:
Sounds like a T-34 Calliope.

That's M4, good sir.

Since I have a pair of these lying around:
https://puppetswar.eu/models-and-bits-47/missile-launchers.html

my idea was more in the direction of getting a Leman Russ turret, putting the launchers at the sides and modelling some kind of targetting array on the old gun mount.

So something like this, which unfortunatly isn't produced any more:

https://www.beastsofwar.com/sci-fi-wargaming/puppets-war-arm-tanks-deadly-salvo/

Leman Russ Suppressor

Turret mounted Battle Cannon

Suppressor Rocket Launcher:
Krak missile: 48" Heavy 2 / S8 / AP-2 / D6
or
Frag missile: 48" Heavy 2D6 / S4 / AP- / D1
Grinding advance rules do not apply to this weapon

(I hope Krak missile is S8. I can't remember now.)

@ Hawky: why the battle cannon? Do you mean the rocket launcher to be an addition on a standart Russ?
I think that would be a bit overkill, even without grinding advance.

Besides that: Supressor or Dominator both sound cool. I also thought about Decimator, since while he is not specialized enough to totally obliterate something specific he surely will decimate or damage any target, whatever the type.

For adequate point increase in cost, nothing is an overkill. Besides that, I, and many others here, just want that Calliope or Wurfrahmen thing to happen.

I wanted the leman russ melta variant since 3rd ed to fight tanks. Twin or triple extended range meltagun as main gun. I realised that giving it more shots is a gamey mechanical way of overcoming guard BS.

Seems that GW did, because then they gave the Hellhounds a blast melta.

 Stux wrote:
If there's no STC then it's heresy, unless Cawl made it. But it could be part of your fluff that its a newly discovered STC.

You guys are aware that Guard replaces tank guns all the time? Say, damaged Leman Russ Vanquishers are converted into Annihilators to still somewhat be usable in their primary tank hunter role with cheaper and easier to get parts? Ditto for Destroyer Tank Hunters, they are noted to receive not just one but four alternate guns if their main weapon is destroyed.

 =Angel= wrote:
The Cult Mechanicus is not a single unified faith. There are lots of schools of thought. When the space wolves jury rigged infantry portable lascannons onto their predator tanks, it caused an uproar.

It sounds funny now that Forge World retconned these to always exist in HH since ever making them official vehicles long before they were supposedly 'created'...

The issue to my mind with building a tank with missile launchers is that the reason a "missile launcher" is a thing in the first place is that infantry can't carry a conventional gun heavy enough to fire a warhead an equivalent distance.

If you're just after the flexibility it might make more sense to make a battle cannon variant that fires either an HE or an AT round the way tanks work in the real world.

For me the point is more looks and flexibility. I specifically want to build and use some stuff that seems to get rarely picked like missile and grenade launchers and autocannons. Therefore this special Leman Russ would fit my guys.


Here are some impressions of what I came up with:


Im not sure with the targeting array in the front, but it is magnetized and can be changed

Simple.

LeMan Russ "Terminator" (inspired by the T-72 based BMPT)



A MBT chassis devised to act as anti-infantry/bunker suppression in built up areas - operating alongside actual MBTs. The original BMPT featured: 4x ATGMs, twin autocannons, two automatic grenade launchers, and a light machine gun.

Use the base of the LeMan Russ with that gakky twin-autocannon, and add four hunter-killer missiles (which are 5 points a pop).



4x Hunter Killer missiles means that you can fire one per turn for four turns (and at 20 total points would be equal/less than a normal missile launcher) or you can pop off more than one in a turn (meaning you can make better use of a stratagem or fire them all desperately hoping for an alpha strike). Using extra Hunter Killer missiles would make it play unique - backed up by its pretty underwhelming autocannons.

Also...you can shoot busses with it:

Here are some pictures of the finished tank:




Looks nice I think.



Regarding the rules: thanks for all the input. I will go the way to just ask my opponent if he is okay with this variant running as twin ML and if not it will just count as standard battle cannon.
And regarding the fluff it fits nicely with my custom guards background.
"Being a light scout regiment, the 2nd Thoth is predominantly equipped with light to medium vehicles like Sentinels, Tauros, Salamanders and Chimeras supporting large formations of light infantry. Therefore the heavy weapons of choice are mainly autocannons, missile launchers, heavy bolters and lascannons while larger cannnons typically used in heavy tanks and artillery are quite uncommon. Therefore it was only natural for the local weapons forges to produce Leman Russ Exterminators and a variant locally called "Leman Russ Decimator" armed with a twin missile launcher as dedicated tank buster.
Since records of the start of its production have been lost, it is unclear if this variant was created in an act of tech heresy or is merely an older STC variant that has been forgotten on most imperial worlds, due to being inferior in this role compared to the more established variants while the abbility to fire frag missiles seems redundant regarding the additional heavy bolters in the sponsons. Yet the already established production lines for missile launchers on Thoth and coupled with large stocks of surplus ammunition allowed for higher production numbers and immediate combat use. Therefore the Adeptus Mechanicus for now assumes the "forgotten STC" theory to be case and have allowed for its continued use."

Space Wolves, Heresy era, VanDiemen pattern heavy bolters?

Looks good! The front of the turret looks a bit empty though, I'd add that little satellite antenna that comes with Chimeras there.

Thanks, I also build some kind of targeting array for the front in the style of the german "Gepard" flak tank.


But I'm still undecided if I like it that way.

@ =Angel=: I'm not sure what you mean by your comment? That it would look better with some VanDiemen pattern heavy bolters in the front?

A little joke, you've the heavy bolters upside down. Spacewolves had a heresy upgrade kit with the bolters upside down.