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Just wondering if this new Chapter Creation that's coming with the new Space Marines codex is going to allow us to create Renegade Chapters/Warbands as well or just loyalist? What about Chaos warbands (or is that possibly coming with a Chaos space marine codex)?

Thanks

SG

Why would that come with the Loyalist Book? You're gonna have to wait for them to do Codex CSM 3.0.

Nothing about renegades.

They're in the CSM book.

Like previous Codex: Space Marine books, I imagine you can still make a year one renegade marine warband that still uses all the typical loyalist gear. I doubt they are going to include anything for renegades that need to scrounge/raid (Renegades and Heretics) or submit to Chaos (Chaos Space Marines) for survival though.

Why would that come in the SM book?

specific renegades... not exactly. But you could just head cannon and write your own fluff about how your space marine chapter follows the ways of a specific chapter but is a renegade because ____.

maybe there is an inquisitor who wrongly declared them heretics. Maybe they decided the worship or the big E as a god is literally what he told them not to do they split. mayeb they decided to become intergallactic pirates because the imperium was not taking care of and robbing to much from thier monestary world. you could even have renegade allies in your personal backstory but it would need to be using all loyalist keywords and no demon or CSM allies.

There's not a single thing from stopping you having "Renegades" produced by this new codex. People seem to forget that there are renegade Marine factions which have nothing to do with Chaos. You want to paint up your own marine chapter and say they're renegades? Go nuts.

As it stands now there isn't much of a keyword though for non-Chaos renegades. You'd oddly be stuck with an Imperium keyword which may or may not make sense depending on your own fluff.

I doubt we'll get a proper renegades and pirates book aimed at non-faction oriented units though, so you have either the suddenly-underwhelming CSM stuff from Vigilus, or your-lore stuff from the new marine book.

Just like you could have always done, pick up the new space marine codex, and whatever supplement you want, or just the core book. Make it however you want and claim to be " Renegade " you just won't have demons or god powers and you're fine.

It gets trickier if you have a set up that is noticeable as a specific faction but that is why I always say unless you are sure to be something, use your own scheme for army paint and be whatever you want to be.

 ServiceGames wrote:
(or is that possibly coming with a Chaos space marine codex)?

Thanks

SG

We literally just had one.

sadly chaos is back in it's 6th edition state of "yeah afetr this one came out they gave marines a buncha new list construction options chaos doesn't get"

They also took away first-turn deepstriking, as well as pre-game infiltrations, from everyone (but it hurt Chaos a lot, especially AL).

And now they've given it back to the Loyalists with drop pods, and even given them pre-game infiltrating dreadnoughts with 12" flamestorm cannons.

I swear it's like the CSM 2.0 codex was just photocopied by a student intern, while the new SM2.0 was made by the forgeworld rules team.

Crispy78 wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
(or is that possibly coming with a Chaos space marine codex)?

Thanks

SG

We literally just had one.

Yeah, and compared to the SM dex it was utter dog gak. RIP CSM.

yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

Really? We're on this?

They don't owe CSM players an apology. If anything, CSM players owe the rest of us an apology for being so obnoxious over their book.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing about renegades.

They're in the CSM book.

Which they shouldn't be. Renegades should've been handled with a page or two in the main codex via switching of keywords.

Or just say they're a Renegade Chapter who just happen to have min-maxed rules and carry on?

 Kanluwen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

Really? We're on this?

They don't owe CSM players an apology. If anything, CSM players owe the rest of us an apology for being so obnoxious over their book.

Why? Chaos are, so far, the only army to have been completely shafted by the second wave of codex releases. If every other army gets the Space Marine treatment, then Chaos will be (by a fair margin) the bottomest of bottom tier codex releases in wave2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing about renegades.

They're in the CSM book.

Which they shouldn't be. Renegades should've been handled with a page or two in the main codex via switching of keywords.

Maybe, maybe not.

Personally? I absolutely, 100% think they should be. There's an argument to be made that CSM could use some limited access to items like Land Speeders, etc--but frankly I think they should be doing more to differentiate the Legions from Renegades, and even then Renegades is such a stupidly broad catch-all term that I find it a bit ridiculous to expect anything to handle them in a reasonable manner.

This isn't something, IMO, that can be solved like the Genestealer Cultists and their Brood Brothers rules. There would be so many things that would need to be looked at(Primaris, vehicles, wargear, etc) that it would create a nightmare for anyone playing with/against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

Why? Chaos are, so far, the only army to have been completely shafted by the second wave of codex releases. If every other army gets the Space Marine treatment, then Chaos will be (by a fair margin) the bottomest of bottom tier codex releases in wave2.

Go ahead and name all of the books that have received a "second wave of codex releases".

I can wait.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing about renegades.

They're in the CSM book.

Which they shouldn't be. Renegades should've been handled with a page or two in the main codex via switching of keywords.

Maybe, maybe not.

Personally? I absolutely, 100% think they should be. There's an argument to be made that CSM could use some limited access to items like Land Speeders, etc--but frankly I think they should be doing more to differentiate the Legions from Renegades, and even then Renegades is such a stupidly broad catch-all term that I find it a bit ridiculous to expect anything to handle them in a reasonable manner.

This isn't something, IMO, that can be solved like the Genestealer Cultists and their Brood Brothers rules. There would be so many things that would need to be looked at(Primaris, vehicles, wargear, etc) that it would create a nightmare for anyone playing with/against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

Why? Chaos are, so far, the only army to have been completely shafted by the second wave of codex releases. If every other army gets the Space Marine treatment, then Chaos will be (by a fair margin) the bottomest of bottom tier codex releases in wave2.

Go ahead and name all of the books that have received a "second wave of codex releases".

I can wait.

They're really handled badly. Once you go Renegade you suddenly get Autocannons on your Terminators and Devastators, oh and by the way all your Apothecaries died.

Seeing how GW is trying to handle the main Chapters and their Successors, there's absolutely no reason it should be as is. Then they can just make the unique units something along giving them Possessed, Warp Talons, and Spawn (which can reasonably show varying levels of chaos association and/or mutations).

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing about renegades.

They're in the CSM book.

Which they shouldn't be. Renegades should've been handled with a page or two in the main codex via switching of keywords.

Maybe, maybe not.

Personally? I absolutely, 100% think they should be. There's an argument to be made that CSM could use some limited access to items like Land Speeders, etc--but frankly I think they should be doing more to differentiate the Legions from Renegades, and even then Renegades is such a stupidly broad catch-all term that I find it a bit ridiculous to expect anything to handle them in a reasonable manner.

This isn't something, IMO, that can be solved like the Genestealer Cultists and their Brood Brothers rules. There would be so many things that would need to be looked at(Primaris, vehicles, wargear, etc) that it would create a nightmare for anyone playing with/against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

Why? Chaos are, so far, the only army to have been completely shafted by the second wave of codex releases. If every other army gets the Space Marine treatment, then Chaos will be (by a fair margin) the bottomest of bottom tier codex releases in wave2.

Go ahead and name all of the books that have received a "second wave of codex releases".

I can wait.

Two are out. Csm, and sm.
It is propper to point out the massive differences.
Especially from a custommer position.
Nothing good will come from that.
It also is rather angereing, how would've many SM players felt if roles were reversed, do you think they wouldn't react the same way?
I doubt it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, the renegade chapters are in Vigilus.
And mark restricted.
Altough they are all ok to good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They're really handled badly. Once you go Renegade you suddenly get Autocannons on your Terminators and Devastators, oh and by the way all your Apothecaries died.

I've never understood why they removed Autocannons from Devastators.
As for the Apothecaries bit, I wish they hadn't done the Lord of Executions but instead had done a Genethief.

Seeing how GW is trying to handle the main Chapters and their Successors, there's absolutely no reason it should be as is. Then they can just make the unique units something along giving them Possessed, Warp Talons, and Spawn (which can reasonably show varying levels of chaos association and/or mutations).

The biggest issue I have with stuff like this is then it might as well just be its own damn codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Two are out. Csm, and sm.

If you want to play the "technically correct" game, C: Space Marines isn't out until this coming Saturday.

It is propper to point out the massive differences.
Especially from a custommer position.
Nothing good will come from that.

It's also proper to point out that C: SM has been gutted of any/all Special Characters to go into these Supplements. The book is, effectively, just an Index of what units the Loyalist Space Marines have.
It's also proper to point out that it's long been speculated that we'll be seeing full-fledged codices for the remaining "God-marked Legions"(Emperor's Children and World Eaters) when they get their Primarchs released.

It also is rather angereing, how would've many SM players felt if roles were reversed, do you think they wouldn't react the same way?
I doubt it.

I didn't say they wouldn't be, but the difference is that it's been a nonstop pity party for CSM in the run-up to their book, after their book dropped, a huge whinefest about Cultists getting their points hiked(the book is Chaos Space Marines, not Cultists--that one's on you tourney guys), and now it's a "WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THE THINGS TOO!".

Btw, the renegade chapters are in Vigilus.
And mark restricted.
Altough they are all ok to good.

Vigilus Ablaze isn't one I've picked up, but the point still remains that it's not an easy to do subject.

Renegades covers everything from Chapters that are still ostensibly Loyalists but censured by the Inquisition to Warp-touched/tainted groups that fell in a rapid fashion.

It's also proper to point out that C: SM has been gutted of any/all Special Characters to go into these Supplements. The book is, effectively, just an Index of what units the Loyalist Space Marines have.
It's also proper to point out that it's long been speculated that we'll be seeing full-fledged codices for the remaining "God-marked Legions"(Emperor's Children and World Eaters) when they get their Primarchs released.

Not even bothering with that since we are talking about sm /csm and not the equivalent special snowflakes attached.

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

Our apostle is more reliable.
The apostle abilities are better.
There is no SM equivalent to the Discordant.
Chaincannons are great as are havoks who dont need to wait until turn 2 to move and shoot.
We have better psyker access despite their extra lores.
We have killer models.
Abaddon got much better.
There are a number of good stratagems and a lot of excellent relics.

Not to mention chaos knights on top of moirax.

It's also proper to point out that C: SM has been gutted of any/all Special Characters to go into these Supplements. The book is, effectively, just an Index of what units the Loyalist Space Marines have.
It's also proper to point out that it's long been speculated that we'll be seeing full-fledged codices for the remaining "God-marked Legions"(Emperor's Children and World Eaters) when they get their Primarchs released.

It also is rather angereing, how would've many SM players felt if roles were reversed, do you think they wouldn't react the same way?
I doubt it.

I didn't say they wouldn't be, but the difference is that it's been a nonstop pity party for CSM in the run-up to their book, after their book dropped, a huge whinefest about Cultists getting their points hiked(the book is Chaos Space Marines, not Cultists--that one's on you tourney guys), and now it's a "WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THE THINGS TOO!".

Fine, three answers to that.
A) fluff wise you are incorrect.
B) you don't fix the supposed core unit by nerfing the decent Alternative but also not propperly fixing the underperforming core unit. (Tac's 12, csm now 13. And everyone and their mother agreed they were both overpriced)
C) not only are cultists worse then equivalent units but also lost their access to traits.
The later of which is more of an issue then the former.

 Kanluwen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

Really? We're on this?

They don't owe CSM players an apology. If anything, CSM players owe the rest of us an apology for being so obnoxious over their book.

Really? The irony here is thick.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

Our apostle is more reliable.
The apostle abilities are better.
There is no SM equivalent to the Discordant.
Chaincannons are great as are havoks who dont need to wait until turn 2 to move and shoot.
We have better psyker access despite their extra lores.
We have killer models.
Abaddon got much better.
There are a number of good stratagems and a lot of excellent relics.

Not to mention chaos knights on top of moirax.

Apostle is also 28pts more expensive, 48 if you want him actually beeing more reliable.
Killer models, which lack full base squad equipment numbers for the whole squad? Chainaxes f.e. Or boltguns.
Stratagems that also lead to the case that mark forced subfaction that aren't hedonistic pricks are comparativly weak.
Moirax is also on the normal side.

Not gonna lie Chaos knights are a fancy thing to have though.
As is the Discordant.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

Our apostle is more reliable.
The apostle abilities are better.
There is no SM equivalent to the Discordant.
Chaincannons are great as are havoks who dont need to wait until turn 2 to move and shoot.
We have better psyker access despite their extra lores.
We have killer models.
Abaddon got much better.
There are a number of good stratagems and a lot of excellent relics.

Not to mention chaos knights on top of moirax.

Apostle is also 28pts more expensive, 48 if you want him actually beeing more reliable.
Killer models, which lack full base squad equipment numbers for the whole squad? Chainaxes f.e. Or boltguns.
Stratagems that also lead to the case that mark forced subfaction that aren't hedonistic pricks are comparativly weak.
Moirax is also on the normal side.

Not gonna lie Chaos knights are a fancy thing to have though.
As is the Discordant.

Except when a marine player takes any unit without Angles of Death rule ie ant non codex units they lose doctrines, super doctrine/trait.

Soup is off the menu for codex marines.

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

Our apostle is more reliable.
The apostle abilities are better.
There is no SM equivalent to the Discordant.
Chaincannons are great as are havoks who dont need to wait until turn 2 to move and shoot.
We have better psyker access despite their extra lores.
We have killer models.
Abaddon got much better.
There are a number of good stratagems and a lot of excellent relics.

Not to mention chaos knights on top of moirax.

Apostle is also 28pts more expensive, 48 if you want him actually beeing more reliable.
Killer models, which lack full base squad equipment numbers for the whole squad? Chainaxes f.e. Or boltguns.
Stratagems that also lead to the case that mark forced subfaction that aren't hedonistic pricks are comparativly weak.
Moirax is also on the normal side.

Not gonna lie Chaos knights are a fancy thing to have though.
As is the Discordant.

Except when a marine player takes any unit without Angles of Death rule ie ant non codex units they lose doctrines, super doctrine/trait.

Soup is off the menu for codex marines.

I doubt very much that the doctrines good enough for marines to consider dropping souping.
The advantages so far still seem overwhelming compared to doctrines -1 AP.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah GW honestly owes CSM players an apology

Our apostle is more reliable.
The apostle abilities are better.
There is no SM equivalent to the Discordant.
Chaincannons are great as are havoks who dont need to wait until turn 2 to move and shoot.
We have better psyker access despite their extra lores.
We have killer models.
Abaddon got much better.
There are a number of good stratagems and a lot of excellent relics.

Not to mention chaos knights on top of moirax.

Apostle is also 28pts more expensive, 48 if you want him actually beeing more reliable.
Killer models, which lack full base squad equipment numbers for the whole squad? Chainaxes f.e. Or boltguns.
Stratagems that also lead to the case that mark forced subfaction that aren't hedonistic pricks are comparativly weak.
Moirax is also on the normal side.

Not gonna lie Chaos knights are a fancy thing to have though.
As is the Discordant.

Except when a marine player takes any unit without Angles of Death rule ie ant non codex units they lose doctrines, super doctrine/trait.

Soup is off the menu for codex marines.

I doubt very much that the doctrines good enough for marines to consider dropping souping.
The advantages so far still seem overwhelming compared to doctrines -1 AP.

It's the chapter specific super doctrines that will though.
They are actually quite good, but are harder to gain access to.

 Elbows wrote:
There's not a single thing from stopping you having "Renegades" produced by this new codex. People seem to forget that there are renegade Marine factions which have nothing to do with Chaos. You want to paint up your own marine chapter and say they're renegades? Go nuts.

As it stands now there isn't much of a keyword though for non-Chaos renegades. You'd oddly be stuck with an Imperium keyword which may or may not make sense depending on your own fluff.

I doubt we'll get a proper renegades and pirates book aimed at non-faction oriented units though, so you have either the suddenly-underwhelming CSM stuff from Vigilus, or your-lore stuff from the new marine book.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Just like you could have always done, pick up the new space marine codex, and whatever supplement you want, or just the core book. Make it however you want and claim to be " Renegade " you just won't have demons or god powers and you're fine.

It gets trickier if you have a set up that is noticeable as a specific faction but that is why I always say unless you are sure to be something, use your own scheme for army paint and be whatever you want to be.

Seconded. If it aint broke, don't fix it. This has worked in the past. I don't see how this would change things now.