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With the Great Rift the Chaos Gods no longer need him. They can have Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Magnus and Lorgar carry out their plans.

no not at all. but neither has he yet won

Don't forget Perturabo!

His plan was always stupid, no matter the retcons. First it was "I will defeat undamaged Imperium with 1/10 of forces Horus had". Then it was "I will waste 10000 years doing dumb sidequests, such as losing tens of thousands of CSM to get fancy sword, or collecting skulls for Tzeentch (!)". Then finally it was "I will submerge whole galaxy in the warp, then, when I conquer the imperium with the help of demon legions, demon-princes, and half-demons that surround me, I will show the finger to the gods and will rule the galaxy without them". You'd think he'd ask himself if merging the reality with warp so that the gods can materialize entire armies wherever they want is really that good of an idea when you want to betray them especially given the whole 13th crusade instantly fell apart and splintered once Cadia no longer barred the way, but whatever.

Yes, Abaddon lost it a long time ago.

 Irbis wrote:
His plan was always stupid, no matter the retcons. First it was "I will defeat undamaged Imperium with 1/10 of forces Horus had". Then it was "I will waste 10000 years doing dumb sidequests, such as losing tens of thousands of CSM to get fancy sword, or collecting skulls for Tzeentch (!)". Then finally it was "I will submerge whole galaxy in the warp, then, when I conquer the imperium with the help of demon legions, demon-princes, and half-demons that surround me, I will show the finger to the gods and will rule the galaxy without them". You'd think he'd ask himself if merging the reality with warp so that the gods can materialize entire armies wherever they want is really that good of an idea when you want to betray them especially given the whole 13th crusade instantly fell apart and splintered once Cadia no longer barred the way, but whatever.

To be fair the 10,000 years argument gets confusing when the Warp causes time travel problems. One of the writers was saying how a lot of Chaos Space Marines don't see multiple Black Crusades tehy only see it as one because they experience time differently in the warp.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
To be fair the 10,000 years argument gets confusing when the Warp causes time travel problems. One of the writers was saying how a lot of Chaos Space Marines don't see multiple Black Crusades tehy only see it as one because they experience time differently in the warp.

Ok, granted, it was probably less time for them, but it still begs the question why you'd hide in a place that literally gives your enemies ten to hundred years to build up their forces per each year you have. You'd think CSM would try to put bases in Halo stars beyond the light of Terra and tried to deny Imperium the time advantage but again, strategic thinking doesn't seem to be their strong side.

 Irbis wrote:
...strategic thinking doesn't seem to be their strong side.

Yeah, it seems like Chaos tends to destroy the critical thinking part of the brain, given a lot of the behavior of Chaos Marines and Followers in the lore.

Don't do drugs kids!

 Irbis wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
To be fair the 10,000 years argument gets confusing when the Warp causes time travel problems. One of the writers was saying how a lot of Chaos Space Marines don't see multiple Black Crusades tehy only see it as one because they experience time differently in the warp.

Ok, granted, it was probably less time for them, but it still begs the question why you'd hide in a place that literally gives your enemies ten to hundred years to build up their forces per each year you have. You'd think CSM would try to put bases in Halo stars beyond the light of Terra and tried to deny Imperium the time advantage but again, strategic thinking doesn't seem to be their strong side.

Time has no meaning in the warp.
It can also be reversed so that some experience thousands of years in the warp and only 1 has passed in real space.

The real strategic advantage is the fact that the enemy can't reach you within the Eye, respectively has a massive disadvantage.
Think Vietnam or Afghanistan but cranked up to eleven

Also due to the stagnating level of the IoM and the galaxy at large csm also don't really need to worry about time.

Abaddon hasn't lost entirely as he is sorta a victim of his own success. As long as the majority of the various chaos forces were more or less stuck in and around the cadia gate, he had significant leverage/ease of access to beat various warbands into his lose alliance of chaos.

Now that the rift has ripped the galaxy in half and one half is essentially a chaos themed amusement park, a huge chunk of his forces have scattered. I like to think half the reason he wants to take control of the two stable warp paths to the intact IOM isn't just to cut off imperial reinforcements but to force the eventual bored chaos factions on the bad side to have to come back to his table to get to the next fight.

Chaos Gods likely need Abby because he is more useful uniting the disparate bands of Chaos than any of the Primarchs.

Plus he throws a mean after party.

Has he lost?

No. Simply because he's been shown to be a ridiculously long term strategist.

Sure, the current situation is a definite milestone - but it's not necessarily his 'snap' moment.

Rather, he's found a way to divide The Imperium, and now starts to bleed it white. That is a serious blow to his foe. It was scattered to begin with, but now it's split into two halves, and he's successfully expanded his front.

Normally, widening your front is a fairly risky idea. But, the advantage is that Chaos corrupts - so he's also bolstered recruitment and insurrection, even before we factor in it's now apparently easier than ever for Daemons of all stripes to manifest.

In summary? He's not lost, because his plan is not yet complete. Sure, Guilliman's return is likely an unforeseen occurrence, but not the death knell of his plotting.

He has always lost, because losing is ingrained to his actual being and his whole purpose is defined from him being on the side of and being one of the galaxy's biggest losers.

He is in the perpetual state of the ultimate loser, and his whole existence and justification of being is that of being in the position of the eternal loser. If he won, he would be no more use to Chaos as a greater whole and will quickly vanish, but his strength is being a big sore loser who can rally and lead his other losers in their eternal tarpit of hate.

The pattern of a 'successful' Chaos champion is a dramatic and fast rise to glory, shortly followed by a meteoric fall. The fact Abaddon is still around for so long is a testament to how much of a loser he is.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The real strategic advantage is the fact that the enemy can't reach you within the Eye, respectively has a massive disadvantage.
Think Vietnam or Afghanistan but cranked up to eleven

But they can't reach Halo stars either. And you can build actual, proper infrastructure there instead of having your gak posessed by demons all the time.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also due to the stagnating level of the IoM and the galaxy at large csm also don't really need to worry about time.

It's only stagnating due to incompetency and religion. CSM basically risked 10.000 years someone competent might take over and reform the place into something they will never be able to beat. Literally all it would take for IoM to forever be out of reach is a single reformist, radical inquisitor lucking into something successful...

 Ratius wrote:
Chaos Gods likely need Abby because he is more useful uniting the disparate bands of Chaos than any of the Primarchs.

They don't, not really. Status quo suits them just fine, the second he starts winning is the second one of his pet demon princes puts a warp sword through his back.

But they can't reach Halo stars either. And you can build actual, proper infrastructure there instead of having your gak posessed by demons all the time.

But those same daemons and daemonic powers are a part of his biggest advantage over the Imperium. Both sides' tech base is buggered but chaos has the advantage of "in case of emergency, break laws of physics" - it's stated, for example, that it wouldn't be possible to build something like the Planet Killer outside the Eye of Terror.

And if the Imperium can't reach the Halo Stars, why could Abbadon? Remember the traitor legions were running after the Siege of Terror. The Eye represented an unassailable fortress - at that point the single most important thing.

And no, time distortion isn't always in the Imperium's favour. Ahriman, for example, literally time-travels; the events in the Ahriman Trilogy are in chronological order from his perspective, not everyone else's, whilst the Stigmartus actively benefit from the time distortion - being able to throw masses of expendable traitor guard into the meat grinder because they've found worlds where time goes faster than the galaxy at large.

It's only stagnating due to incompetency and religion. CSM basically risked 10.000 years someone competent might take over and reform the place into something they will never be able to beat. Literally all it would take for IoM to forever be out of reach is a single reformist, radical inquisitor lucking into something successful...

The problem is systemic, not individual, though. Reformist inquisitors (Recongregators) have been trying to refom the Imperium for 10,000 years and failing. Because the functional government has been deliberatly delegated down to a local level and forces broken up to prevent any unified force taking over. Gulliman is the best hope the Imperium's had simply because he's the only person all the factions will (grudgingly) accept; Abbadon's campaigns started after all the loyalist Primarchs were missing presumed dead.

I'm not a fan of the '13 failures' perspective.

That said I do have a couple of points:
What happened to the Crimson Path?

Abaddon failed in his own book (Remember in Talon of Horus how he had a mission to stop the Emperor's Children from cloning Horus within ten years? And he had his timeless secret lair to plan this mission from? Did he stop them cloning Horus?).

Honestly, at this point I think most of the traitor marines have given up on 'The Long War' and are indulging themselves in the debauchee of the 'Eternal War'. They are truly lost to chaos.

nareik wrote:
I'm not a fan of the '13 failures' perspective.

That said I do have a couple of points:
What happened to the Crimson Path?

Abaddon failed in his own book (Remember in Talon of Horus how he had a mission to stop the Emperor's Children from cloning Horus within ten years? And he had his timeless secret lair to plan this mission from? Did he stop them cloning Horus?).

Honestly, at this point I think most of the traitor marines have given up on 'The Long War' and are indulging themselves in the debauchee of the 'Eternal War'. They are truly lost to chaos.

i fairness the Horus cloning was more "it'll take em a decade or more to do this" only followed by ".. wait they've already done it? wtf!"

I don't understand the hatred of Abanddon. He has a fraction of what Horus had and is using a base operations that causes people to love their minds and throw spleens at each. other. The fact that he keeps his followers alive and united is something that no other Legion Warlord save for Lorgar and Mortarion have been able to manage. When I posted this I was'nt trying to diminish what Abaddon has done. He has mortally wounded the Imperium. The Long War is over and Chaos has won, realistically the only thing that can possibly save the Imperium is the Emperor becoming the fifth Chaos God.

TheOpposition wrote:
I don't understand the hatred of Abanddon. He has a fraction of what Horus had and is using a base operations that causes people to love their minds and throw spleens at each. other. The fact that he keeps his followers alive and united is something that no other Legion Warlord save for Lorgar and Mortarion have been able to manage. When I posted this I was'nt trying to diminish what Abaddon has done. He has mortally wounded the Imperium. The Long War is over and Chaos has won, realistically the only thing that can possibly save the Imperium is the Emperor becoming the fifth Chaos God.

Got to add Perturabo and the Iron Warriors still work on a legion level as well and ever has an empire of sorts that extended into imperial space for some time, sending raw materials bad to Medrengard. Also I agree I don’t get the Abaddon hate.

Got to add Perturabo and the Iron Warriors still work on a legion level as well and ever has an empire of sorts that extended into imperial space for some time, sending raw materials bad to Medrengard. Also I agree I don’t get the Abaddon hate.[spoiler]
In Lords of Silence the only fully united Legions were the Black Legion, Death Guard and Word Bearers. Its too bad considering what a cool Legion the Iron Warriors are though not unexpected given how in "Black Sun Dead Sky" how the Warsmiths were fighting civil wars against each other.

Since he's got a recast that should no lo ger make it go by "the (h)armless", he won.

Seriously though I kind of agree with the eternal loser theory but mostly from GW's pragmatic statement that wiping out the imperium would wipe out his universe.

Fluff wise I don't because he's pretty much been engaged in galactic scale guerilla warfare so that obviously needs time to pay off.

Fluff wise I don't because he's pretty much been engaged in galactic scale guerilla warfare so that obviously needs time to pay off.

In Black Legion Khayon states that the Black Legion had 13 chances to take Terra and declined all times. Yes they could take Terra but they couldn't hold it. The Black Crusades were not just about harming the Imperium but building up the infrastructure of the Black Legion so that not only could it destroy the Imperium but build another one.

TheOpposition wrote:

Fluff wise I don't because he's pretty much been engaged in galactic scale guerilla warfare so that obviously needs time to pay off.

In Black Legion Khayon states that the Black Legion had 13 chances to take Terra and declined all times. Yes they could take Terra but they couldn't hold it. The Black Crusades were not just about harming the Imperium but building up the infrastructure of the Black Legion so that not only could it destroy the Imperium but build another one.

which is a point I mean.. Horus attacked Terra, and nearly won, but he wouldn't have been able to hold it, even if Horus had won at Terra chances are just as he won Gulliman and the Lion would have rolled in behind him and taken down the traitors. as they where still recovering.

TheOpposition wrote:

Fluff wise I don't because he's pretty much been engaged in galactic scale guerilla warfare so that obviously needs time to pay off.

In Black Legion Khayon states that the Black Legion had 13 chances to take Terra and declined all times. Yes they could take Terra but they couldn't hold it. The Black Crusades were not just about harming the Imperium but building up the infrastructure of the Black Legion so that not only could it destroy the Imperium but build another one.

Well good point insofar i think it clearly gives the subquest whole thing's sensical reason to be.

BrianDavion wrote:

TheOpposition wrote:

Fluff wise I don't because he's pretty much been engaged in galactic scale guerilla warfare so that obviously needs time to pay off.

In Black Legion Khayon states that the Black Legion had 13 chances to take Terra and declined all times. Yes they could take Terra but they couldn't hold it. The Black Crusades were not just about harming the Imperium but building up the infrastructure of the Black Legion so that not only could it destroy the Imperium but build another one.

which is a point I mean.. Horus attacked Terra, and nearly won, but he wouldn't have been able to hold it, even if Horus had won at Terra chances are just as he won Gulliman and the Lion would have rolled in behind him and taken down the traitors. as they where still recovering.

Abaddon touches on this too in the same trilogy, explaining Horus had such hubris and ambition that he was willing to give anything and everything for the opportunity to sit on the throne for even a second.

Abaddon touches on this too in the same trilogy, explaining Horus had such hubris and ambition that he was willing to give anything and everything for the opportunity to sit on the throne for even a second.

They really have made Horus to be fool. The problem with this is it makes you wonder about the intelligence of the Emperor putting a manchild like him in power. Whatever you think of the Emperor he's supposed to have a certain amount of wisdom so its fun to root for or against him.

Horus' problem was his arrogance and ambition blinded him...

like father like son

BrianDavion wrote:
which is a point I mean.. Horus attacked Terra, and nearly won, but he wouldn't have been able to hold it, even if Horus had won at Terra chances are just as he won Gulliman and the Lion would have rolled in behind him and taken down the traitors. as they where still recovering.

I don't agree. Horus had an air of legitimacy about him, being basically second in command of the entire Imperium. Had the emperor been slain by Horus and Horus got to sit on the throne and allowed to "spin" things to the other legions and the Imperium at large, the entire Imperium would have most likely fallen in line behind him. There would probably be a few holdouts like Dorn and Russ who would have never sided with Horus over the emperor, but THEY would be the traitors and on the run instead of the other way around.

You have to remember that Horus was MASSIVELY more popular to the majority of the Imperium's citizens and to most of the other primarchs than the emperor. Literally half of the Imperium sided with Horus when the emperor was ALIVE, how many you think would turn if the emperor were killed by Horus in a duel?

Abbadon has not lost, but he is damned.

The way I see it, Abaddon has been the most influential player on a galactic scale since Horus. Nobody else has caused the Imperium so much grief. How many worlds have become a playground for Chaos in the Cicatrix Maledictum?

Nurglitch wrote:
Abbadon has not lost, but he is damned.

Nice.