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It could be that the wrist mounted bolter with it's large ammo feed was too heavy, the feed made too much noise or that the extra rounds on the chassis added too much weight.

CapRichard wrote:
Am I the only one that's a fan of the Raptor chapter, that actually fight in a sensible way, like using proper stealth, information gathering, being among the best shots of all astartes and so forth?

And they actually form specialized kill teams without being Deathwatch.

Everything you just described is par for the course on Raven Guard and their Successors.

So....? What is that Primaris do that's new?

Gave people a way to "grrr, it's not what I wanted!".

 Kanluwen wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
Am I the only one that's a fan of the Raptor chapter, that actually fight in a sensible way, like using proper stealth, information gathering, being among the best shots of all astartes and so forth?

And they actually form specialized kill teams without being Deathwatch.

Everything you just described is par for the course on Raven Guard and their Successors.

So....? What is that Primaris do that's new?

Gave people a way to "grrr, it's not what I wanted!".

Raptors are basically Sensible Marines. People think that Primaris brought the whole modern warfare thing into the setting, but Raptors fight like modern special forces wearing a small tank.

And Raptors fight like the Raven Guard Successors they are.

People seem to forget that Raptors aren't super special in that context.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And Raptors fight like the Raven Guard Successors they are.

People seem to forget that Raptors aren't super special in that context.

Raven Guard aren't known for repainting their armour all the time in the lore, but it's a fair point.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And Raptors fight like the Raven Guard Successors they are.

People seem to forget that Raptors aren't super special in that context.

Raptors are much more pragmatic, but ultimately they still cleave pretty close to their forebearers.

Crimson Fists utilize guerrilla tactics and deployed plenty of snipers even before Rynn's World. They were always the pragmatic and level-headed Successors of the Imperial Fists. Snipers and sneaky Marines are right up their alley too.

Honestly, look at one or two of the Second Founding Chapters from each Legion and you will find one or two that behave similar to the Raptors and Crimson Fists (i.e. utilizing the tactics the OP says are completely new with Primaris).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And Raptors fight like the Raven Guard Successors they are.

People seem to forget that Raptors aren't super special in that context.

Raven Guard aren't known for repainting their armour all the time in the lore, but it's a fair point.

They don't really have to go about repainting their armor all the time--black works fairly well in that context. They will utilize camouflage/concealment tactics(mud, ash, etc) if called for--and the "active camo" that someone brought up with regards to Deathwatch(which was really just an adaptive paint coating) was developed by the Raven Guard/Alpha Legion during the Great Crusade.

And it's worth mentioning that the Raptors seem to change their colors based on who was writing the book. They wore green on Taros and green in the Badab Cluster(barring a notable instance of them adopting a grey with black stripes camouflage pattern).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And Raptors fight like the Raven Guard Successors they are.

People seem to forget that Raptors aren't super special in that context.

Raven Guard aren't known for repainting their armour all the time in the lore, but it's a fair point.

They don't really have to go about repainting their armor all the time--black works fairly well in that context. They will utilize camouflage/concealment tactics(mud, ash, etc) if called for--and the "active camo" that someone brought up with regards to Deathwatch(which was really just an adaptive paint coating) was developed by the Raven Guard/Alpha Legion during the Great Crusade.

And it's worth mentioning that the Raptors seem to change their colors based on who was writing the book. They wore green on Taros and green in the Badab Cluster(barring a notable instance of them adopting a grey with black stripes camouflage pattern).

Black is actually a pretty crap camo color, especially on large spaces. A dark grey or blue would work better.

But they learned how to catch and strangle easily startled tiny birds so it's a moot point I guess.

Worth mentioning that the 'black' they use for Raven Guard is supposed to be a 'light absorbing paint', which would make it work a bit better.

The problem is, how the hell do you paint that? It's why I'm using Corvus Black instead of Abaddon Black for painting mine--there's an actual bit of color to it, with a hint of grey in there. They sneakily showcased the color a few months back in WD when they were showing how to paint Legion Colors.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Worth mentioning that the 'black' they use for Raven Guard is supposed to be a 'light absorbing paint', which would make it work a bit better.

The problem is, how the hell do you paint that? It's why I'm using Corvus Black instead of Abaddon Black for painting mine--there's an actual bit of color to it, with a hint of grey in there. They sneakily showcased the color a few months back in WD when they were showing how to paint Legion Colors.

Thinking of being silent and sneaky ambushers....where the hell are the Owl themed Chapters?

Stealth SMs I can buy, as it has been done a lot.

Stealth Dreadnots? No, just no. That jumps the shark so egregiously I don't know where to begin. A giant clanking warmachine with high calibre weapons that can sneak up?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Meet the Space Marine Recon Squad. They are a Heresy era unit. They have been around for several years at this point. No one bitched about them when they came out. The sniper whining now is explicitly Primaris Haters square-pegging a round hole to fit their narrative.

I would like to mention that, as the OP of this thread, I consider units like these as profoundly stupid and poorly designed. Why put snipers in power armors? The point of snipers is of being unseen thus any plating is superfluous protection and actually prevents them from being unseen and unheard by adding to their bulk. Why is their camocloak so tiny they can't drape themselves in it (at least they got one)? The only advantage of the power armor is that the guy doesn't have to move to pee, eat or drink, but just a few tubes in the right place would have been enough.

That's what I'm talking about when I say "stupid design" and its far from being am exclusively Primaris problem (even though the Primaris superior size and strength is an issue in this instance). Let's make a sniper/infiltrator/saboteur without taking into consideration how a sniper/infiltrator/saboteur operates and is equipped or even what are the key skills and traits for good snipers/infiltrators/saboteurs are. Making Space Marines recon units isn't exactly difficult. Make them human size (which they were, even if barely, but no longer are), give them very light armors and stealthy weapons like needle rifles and snipers in addition to lightly armored vehicles for transport and some fire support.

Blame call of duty black ops and associates for the Primaris there aimed at teens who think you can only be spec ops with at least 3 scopes, a combat knife is the pinnacle of warfare and random visors and goggles are cool.

That and they have updated there plagiarism sorry influences from 80's scifi to the modern period. Oh sorry again I remember multiple GW employees standing in court under oath and stating that every GW design was done in a bubble with no influence from outside sources.
I am still amazed they never got a C&D about the necrons.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
Worth mentioning that the 'black' they use for Raven Guard is supposed to be a 'light absorbing paint', which would make it work a bit better.

The problem is, how the hell do you paint that? It's why I'm using Corvus Black instead of Abaddon Black for painting mine--there's an actual bit of color to it, with a hint of grey in there. They sneakily showcased the color a few months back in WD when they were showing how to paint Legion Colors.

A tiny bit of green gives a good effect if I remember correctly that's how the original 30k raven stuff was done by the old good painter, another way would be to use one of scale 75's blacks as they are incredibly matte which from memory a lot of light absorbent paints can be.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Stealth SMs I can buy, as it has been done a lot.

Stealth Dreadnots? No, just no. That jumps the shark so egregiously I don't know where to begin. A giant clanking warmachine with high calibre weapons that can sneak up?

And yet the giant clanking squad of sentinels or the scout motorcycles get a free pass?

Scouting isn't all about stealth, it's about recon. The ambushing it does is more likely them parking it, throwing a camo net over it and waiting for the enemy to come to them rather than sneaking up on someone like Solid Snake.


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And Jes Goodwin was very openly on record for his influences for Marines: namely soldiers (with a pack with a bedroll across the top and all their kit on them) and knights. The design has been iterated on until it could 't be and this reboot is giving them different ways to take everything.

And knives, pouches and grenades were options for the old Marine kits too. They just never gave us enough to properly kit up a whole squad with them.

Likewise we had scopes before too. And at least the visor was given a reason to exist and isn't just a random bit of kit slapped on.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Stealth SMs I can buy, as it has been done a lot.

Stealth Dreadnots? No, just no. That jumps the shark so egregiously I don't know where to begin. A giant clanking warmachine with high calibre weapons that can sneak up?

And yet the giant clanking squad of sentinels or the scout motorcycles get a free pass?

Scouting isn't all about stealth, it's about recon. The ambushing it does is more likely them parking it, throwing a camo net over it and waiting for the enemy to come to them rather than sneaking up on someone like Solid Snake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Jes Goodwin was very openly on record for his influences for Marines: namely soldiers (with a pack with a bedroll across the top and all their kit on them) and knights. The design has been iterated on until it could 't be and this reboot is giving them different ways to take everything.

And knives, pouches and grenades were options for the old Marine kits too. They just never gave us enough to properly kit up a whole squad with them.

Likewise we had scopes before too. And at least the visor was given a reason to exist and isn't just a random bit of kit slapped on.

Yeah but for most primaris a combat knife is the pinnacle of hth combat as opposed to old marines who used them to eat with and yes we had scopes but normally only one per model as opposed to the what 3 some primaris sport.
I acknowledge it is most certainly a new iteration still gak though.

I fail to see how it's gal, but that's just me.

Phobos, to me, feels like a power armoured veesion of Scout Carapace armour.

I don't mind the concept of stealth marines in itself. But some of the phobos stuff goes way too far with the tacticool anesthetic and dosnt really fit marines imo

They fit the Scout aesthetic. I mean Scouts had goggles and pouches, knives and pistols.

The only difference is putting them in Power Armour over carapace armour.

People are mixing everything. Noone is saying scopes and grenades are bad ( even if scopes are totally useless with a marine helmet according to several decades of fluff but whatever...).

The OP never said the primaris invented everything however it is too much emphasize on it and it is loosing consistency like wtf the "stealthy" dread ?!
He is speaking of light troops and light vehicles and snipers: ohhh scouts, land speeder storm and scout snipers. See ? The old stealth marines were realistic.

 godardc wrote:
The OP never said the primaris invented everything however it is too much emphasize on it and it is loosing consistency like wtf the "stealthy" dread ?!

To be honest, I think the "stealthy dread" isn't that bad, at least not as bad comparatively speeking as power armored stealth troops with no camocloaks like Reivers for example. It, at least looks like a light vehicle and the concept of a walker for scouting make sense as they can negotiate terrain more easily then wheel and thread vehicles. The only problem is that it's too squat and bulky. Compared to other vehicles, it still look light and stealthy, but not as much as Imperial Guard Scout or even Armored Sentinels who have basicall the same role. Compared to xeno stuff like Eldar War Walkers or T'au Ghostkeel, they look hilariously outmatched. Of course, it's still not as good as Land Speeders as armored reconnaissance vehicle and Land Speeders looked better when compared to Vypers, Venoms and Piranha.

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 godardc wrote:
Before there were scouts, land speeders, thunderhawks and pods. Small teams in one vehicle, pods looking like meteors etc, they could be stealthy without looking silly.
Corax had warp shenanigans, alpha legion too and they used humans.
In addition RG "stealth" was more about deception and ambush than Sam Fisher, as you say.

I think they used to show the stealth part pretty well without too much emphasize on it, including information gathering (scouts, auspex, psykers, eating enemies' brain, administratum report and orbital scans...).

Now it looks like marines aren't troop lines or shock troops anymore but just that, spec ops rangers avoiding contact.

They used to master all kind of strategies not just so called shock and awe.
They are famous for boarding or direct assault on high priority targets (in the taros campaign for example they drop on the laser silo and they assaulted the traitor governor's palace directly, by thunderhawk, they conduct armoured column right in the strongest enemy line and they fight as rearguard to protect the evacuation).

I can't see the primashit doing this kind of stuff, fighting were the enemy is the stronger to break him.

jesus you act like the only primaris in existance are the special forces vanguard. they're not. the vast bulk of Marines are still deployed as battle company units. and are the stuff we get in the first wave (intercessors etc) if you can't see the Primaris doing "that kind of gak" as you say. then the problem is entirely on you and not on Primaris Marines.

 godardc wrote:
People are mixing everything. Noone is saying scopes and grenades are bad ( even if scopes are totally useless with a marine helmet according to several decades of fluff but whatever...).

The OP never said the primaris invented everything however it is too much emphasize on it and it is loosing consistency like wtf the "stealthy" dread ?!
He is speaking of light troops and light vehicles and snipers: ohhh scouts, land speeder storm and scout snipers. See ? The old stealth marines were realistic.

Yes because scouting land speeders with their jet engines and scouts on motorcycles are so realistic as covert operatives.

Raven guard always struck me as more about using recon and ambush tactics. The Tau for example utilize ambush tactics quite a bit but they can perform those actions with regular infantry, tanks, and suits. This is different than their Stealth Suits which have active camo and other detection evasion equipment to be able to infiltrate behind enemy lines.

I can fully see space marines utilizing ambush tactics (again the Raven guard doctrine) but if they are claiming that these certain Primaris Marines are some super secret squirrel / solid snake infiltration force then that seems like an extremely poor role for what they are (super human big boys wearing tank armor).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Yes because scouting land speeders with their jet engines and scouts on motorcycles are so realistic as covert operatives.

As far as vehicle goes, it's pretty much the stealthiest and mobile you'll get. Armored reconnaissance is a thing and is very important. Land Speeders engines might be noisy, but certainly less then an armored vehicle bound to the ground. As for motorcycles, they are certainly a lot more silencious then any type of tank due to the size of their motor. As far as armored recon goes, land speeders and motorcycle make sense. As far as recon infantry goes, Infiltrators and Reivers don't.

epronovost wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Yes because scouting land speeders with their jet engines and scouts on motorcycles are so realistic as covert operatives.

As far as vehicle goes, it's pretty much the stealthiest and mobile you'll get. Armored reconnaissance is a thing and is very important. Land Speeders engines might be noisy, but certainly less then an armored vehicle bound to the ground. As for motorcycles, they are certainly a lot more silencious then any type of tank due to the size of their motor. As far as armored recon goes, land speeders and motorcycle make sense. As far as recon infantry goes, infiltrators and reivers don't.

I think that here the main problem is simple: GW could not go for the most logic roles and features because those belong to the models that they want to make obsolete. So they had to come up with units that are kinda like that but not really, with all the inconsistencies of the case.
When the old marines will be softly squatted, and fully substituted, I am confident fluff changes will be slowly adjusted and something will be salvaged.
Barring that new open dread. The only two logical thing to do in that case is either loot it for the orks, or keep laughing.

yeah I mean GW gave the commandos knifes instead of chainsaw swords! totally illogical!

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I mean GW gave the commandos knifes instead of chainsaw swords! totally illogical!

Honest question - are you intentioned to answer to every criticism with what is essentially a strawman, or you can eventually come up with an actual answer?
Just to know where I can come back here in this thread and read something that can address the points above.

Kanluwen wrote:Worth mentioning that the 'black' they use for Raven Guard is supposed to be a 'light absorbing paint', which would make it work a bit better.

The problem is, how the hell do you paint that? It's why I'm using Corvus Black instead of Abaddon Black for painting mine--there's an actual bit of color to it, with a hint of grey in there. They sneakily showcased the color a few months back in WD when they were showing how to paint Legion Colors.

Vantablack would be about as light absorbing as we can get currently. Unfortunately an artist has the exclusive rights for artistic use of the paint. Carbon nanotubes FTW!

But it would look damn cool on the tabletop to basically have what appears to be black holes on the tabletop.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I mean GW gave the commandos knifes instead of chainsaw swords! totally illogical!

Honest question - are you intentioned to answer to every criticism with what is essentially a strawman, or you can eventually come up with an actual answer?
Just to know where I can come back here in this thread and read something that can address the points above.

It wasn't a straw man but it may have been a reducto absurdium. you can't argue that Primaris represent a trend to nonsensiacal design when Space Marines have nonsense design baked into them at their core. people seem to be happy to criticism the smallest detail about primaris marines well given stuff that has been around ages but is even more absurd a pass

 Vankraken wrote:
Raven guard always struck me as more about using recon and ambush tactics. The Tau for example utilize ambush tactics quite a bit but they can perform those actions with regular infantry, tanks, and suits. This is different than their Stealth Suits which have active camo and other detection evasion equipment to be able to infiltrate behind enemy lines.

I can fully see space marines utilizing ambush tactics (again the Raven guard doctrine) but if they are claiming that these certain Primaris Marines are some super secret squirrel / solid snake infiltration force then that seems like an extremely poor role for what they are (super human big boys wearing tank armor).

This is the problem that has to be explained every single time this particular topic comes up.

Infiltration isn't necessarily "super secret squirrel/solid snake" stuff.

In warfare, infiltration tactics involve small independent light infantry forces advancing into enemy rear areas, bypassing enemy front-line strongpoints, possibly isolating them for attack by follow-up troops with heavier weapons. Soldiers take the initiative to identify enemy weak points and choose their own routes, targets, moments and methods of attack; this requires a high degree of skill and training, and can be supplemented by special equipment and weaponry to give them more local combat options.

Sounds pretty remarkably like the way Raven Guard are supposed to operate, doesn't it?
People tend to confuse "infiltrators"(the concept of a double agent for the most part applies here) with "infiltration tactics" and further to confuse "reconnaissance" with "espionage".

Alpha Legion act as infiltrators, since they'll strip power armor from dead Marines to use to get in.
Raven Guard utilize infiltration tactics, making them "infiltrators" but not in the same vein as AL do.