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So, are we CSM players going to get chapter specific splat books and new and updated rules for chapter tactics, extra bonus attacks and what not, or once again, is that just going to be a loyalist thing?

You get pdf with extra attacks but sorry, you got last codex before gw changed style so will take time before csm gets new codex.

With some luck, the PDF will also expand the legion tactics to all units.

Won't help TS at all, and honestly won't help CSM in general match up to the insane slew of buffs loyalists just got.

Chaos can't have nice things.

Nope, you heretic scum get a chance to rejoin your glorious brothers in defending the Imperium from your unrepentant associates.

Seriously though, GW seems to be focusing primarily on marines and Chaos, so I expect you’ll see some new scraps thrown your way, but I wouldn’t expect it to be as thorough as the loyalist options.

Of course, you could always just run the loyalist options and replace the <chapter> with your own and IMPERIUM, ASTARTES keywords with CHAOS and HERETIC ASTARTES keywords (and some Spikey kitbashes...)

This is where GW put themselves in a bit of a corner. It'll be vastly insulting if they get an 8.5 book so soon after the semi-pointless V2 book. So I think they'll eventually get the treatment, but I think PDF/Chapter Approved will be the holdover until then.

I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019

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 Galef wrote:
I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019

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Except their Legion Traits are almost universally worse than Chapter Tactics and the splat books are giving the chapters considerably more choice in terms of Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Relics and even Psychic Powers.

 Galef wrote:
I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019

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Quiver, loyalist scum, for soon not just my Rubricae, but also my LAND RAIDERS and HELDRAKES and RHINOS shall have +6" range to ALL their psychic powers!

MWA HA HA HAAAA.

 Galef wrote:
I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019

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Honestly, all I want is:

Add Shock Assault
Offer Heretic Splat Books
Rewrite the gak Word Bearers and Iron Legion chapter tactics, match Alpha Legion to Raven Guard
Chapter Tactics apply to all models.

I'd be plenty happy with that.

 Togusa wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019

-

Honestly, all I want is:

Add Shock Assault
Offer Heretic Splat Books
Rewrite the gak Word Bearers and Iron Legion chapter tactics, match Alpha Legion to Raven Guard
Chapter Tactics apply to all models.

I'd be plenty happy with that.

Don't even need the stupid splatbooks.
Just fix traits and points.
Let the marines have doctrines.
Oh and either put down the poor word Bearers allready or make them finally the religious fanatics worth a gak!

It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines. Also, as pointed out by a few others, just applying the CSM legion traits to vehicles is not going to be very helpful. It really would only matter to Alpha Legion Armies (and we know the Nerf is incoming to that), Scourged/Purged would benefit, maybe ok for Iron Warriors or Night lords (both suck anyway) and maybe helpful for some close combat doctrines with the defiler, helldrake (which suckssssss), or maulerfiend. My Thousand Sons gain nothing from it and nor would Deathguard, and Word Bearers, Black Legion also get nothing out of it. Our tactics are the worst set in the game (other than Alpha Legion) and even Thousand Sons and Deathguard are not great. Adding Marks of Chaos would be cool and fluffy.

Personally I think the FAQ that will add shock assault might, and I stress might, adjust the points for basic marines, maybe a few other things (like Inferno bolters going to 0, since they are the exact same as special issue), and maybe just adding that vehicles benefit from our legion tactics. I don't think they are making any other major changes though an FAQ. Also what would really suck is if they don't do the points adjustment and wait for CA2019, which is still a few months away.

 xeen wrote:
It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines. Also, as pointed out by a few others, just applying the CSM legion traits to vehicles is not going to be very helpful. It really would only matter to Alpha Legion Armies (and we know the Nerf is incoming to that), Scourged/Purged would benefit, maybe ok for Iron Warriors or Night lords (both suck anyway) and maybe helpful for some close combat doctrines with the defiler, helldrake (which suckssssss), or maulerfiend. My Thousand Sons gain nothing from it and nor would Deathguard, and Word Bearers, Black Legion also get nothing out of it. Our tactics are the worst set in the game (other than Alpha Legion) and even Thousand Sons and Deathguard are not great. Adding Marks of Chaos would be cool and fluffy.

Personally I think the FAQ that will add shock assault might, and I stress might, adjust the points for basic marines, maybe a few other things (like Inferno bolters going to 0, since they are the exact same as special issue), and maybe just adding that vehicles benefit from our legion tactics. I don't think they are making any other major changes though an FAQ. Also what would really suck is if they don't do the points adjustment and wait for CA2019, which is still a few months away.

You have to remember though, not all of us care that much about the min/max. Yes, Black Legion might not do much for tanks and such. But it would do SOMETHING and to me, that is worth the effort.

Each mark should at the very least do something in addition to adding in a strat you can use.

 Togusa wrote:

 xeen wrote:
It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines. Also, as pointed out by a few others, just applying the CSM legion traits to vehicles is not going to be very helpful. It really would only matter to Alpha Legion Armies (and we know the Nerf is incoming to that), Scourged/Purged would benefit, maybe ok for Iron Warriors or Night lords (both suck anyway) and maybe helpful for some close combat doctrines with the defiler, helldrake (which suckssssss), or maulerfiend. My Thousand Sons gain nothing from it and nor would Deathguard, and Word Bearers, Black Legion also get nothing out of it. Our tactics are the worst set in the game (other than Alpha Legion) and even Thousand Sons and Deathguard are not great. Adding Marks of Chaos would be cool and fluffy.

Personally I think the FAQ that will add shock assault might, and I stress might, adjust the points for basic marines, maybe a few other things (like Inferno bolters going to 0, since they are the exact same as special issue), and maybe just adding that vehicles benefit from our legion tactics. I don't think they are making any other major changes though an FAQ. Also what would really suck is if they don't do the points adjustment and wait for CA2019, which is still a few months away.

You have to remember though, not all of us care that much about the min/max. Yes, Black Legion might not do much for tanks and such. But it would do SOMETHING and to me, that is worth the effort.

Each mark should at the very least do something in addition to adding in a strat you can use.

I think that Marks should... 1) Unlock more god specific stratagems. 2) Keyword for god-centric specialist detachment in the vein of what Khorne Daemonkin were for Khorne. On (2), there should be a specialist detachment of some sort that rewards the mono-god build and significant enough that it balances for the loss of any rules as a consequence of being neither a pure daemon or pure CSM list.

Yes please to Legion traits applying to non-infantry (though, I would also accept a return to simply not having intra-codex factional traits at all).
I'll take extra attacks, too.
Combat doctrines seem fluffed to be a loyalist discipline thing. I'll take it or some sort of traitorous analogue to it, but this feels like another thing that the game could just do without and that whatever problem this is fixing could be fixed...better.

But for the sake of heaven above, no splatbooks, I beg of you, GW.

(though, I would also accept a return to simply not having intra-codex factional traits at all).

I'd be dissappointed by this, done well it can add a lot of character to an army. sadly a lot of the inital ones aren't done well.

I'm guessing that we will see Traits redone when they get shock assault. I'm not sure they'll apply to vehicles too because that has very different results for Chaos considering they have daemon engines, but we'll probably get something else for vehicles if they don't.

I would also expect that there will be another new rule/buff to keep up with combat doctrines. Perhaps bringing back Mark bonuses. But this may not come at the same time as the above. We can hope though!

As long as they lose lots of cool rules unless they are run as a mono faction.

 Ishagu wrote:
As long as they lose lots of cool rules unless they are run as a mono faction.

Yeah. I started playing right after the 3.5 codex got replaced. I've been waiting for over a decade to play a proper, pure, specialized Legion army with proper rules support. Playing a pure God army should give a lot of buffs but also heavy restrictions. Playing pure God and mono-legion should be even more. Then using something like Word Bearers or Black Legion should remove some of the restrictions, but not give as much of a buff.

We are more likely to see an update with World Eaters and Emperors Children before they touch CSM again.

Let's drop some more Primarchs into the setting!

 xeen wrote:
It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines. Also, as pointed out by a few others, just applying the CSM legion traits to vehicles is not going to be very helpful. It really would only matter to Alpha Legion Armies (and we know the Nerf is incoming to that), Scourged/Purged would benefit, maybe ok for Iron Warriors or Night lords (both suck anyway) and maybe helpful for some close combat doctrines with the defiler, helldrake (which suckssssss), or maulerfiend. My Thousand Sons gain nothing from it and nor would Deathguard, and Word Bearers, Black Legion also get nothing out of it. Our tactics are the worst set in the game (other than Alpha Legion) and even Thousand Sons and Deathguard are not great. Adding Marks of Chaos would be cool and fluffy.

Personally I think the FAQ that will add shock assault might, and I stress might, adjust the points for basic marines, maybe a few other things (like Inferno bolters going to 0, since they are the exact same as special issue), and maybe just adding that vehicles benefit from our legion tactics. I don't think they are making any other major changes though an FAQ. Also what would really suck is if they don't do the points adjustment and wait for CA2019, which is still a few months away.

Ignoring the penalty to heavy weapons and having 18 rapid fire on all vehicles would do "nothing" for Death Guard?
It would highly improve the Entropy armed PBC, it would make the Defiler able to do shooting and CC like it apparently wants to, it would make Land Raiders able to move up with full fire power and then deliver its cargo. It would be a huge bonus and make tanks much more interesting for DG.

I'd like some bonus for Marks, though. Would be even cooler if it worked in a way that it included Daemons. So, when your whole army is Nurgle get X.

I also think that doctrines should be an SM thing, to reflect their discipline. In place it would be nice if marks provided some buff in and of themselves.

Doing so would somewhat mitigate the peculiarly restrictive nature of CSM strategems, usually universal to all units in a faction, that are for us restricted to units of a particular mark (e.g. fight again).

Buffing SM around disciplines and CSM around marks of individual units would be fluffy, and would reflect that CSM are about personal glory and individual strength, while SM are about working together.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
We are more likely to see an update with World Eaters and Emperors Children before they touch CSM again.

Let's drop some more Primarchs into the setting!

Daemon Angron would have me so hyped! If he has any less than 8 attacks I would consider that UNACCEPTABLE!

Move over skarbrand, your angriest primarch has arrived!

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
We are more likely to see an update with World Eaters and Emperors Children before they touch CSM again.

Let's drop some more Primarchs into the setting!

Daemon Angron would have me so hyped! If he has any less than 8 attacks I would consider that UNACCEPTABLE!

Move over skarbrand, your angriest primarch has arrived!

If Angron isn't better in CC than Magnus and Morty I'll be highly dissatisfied.

 Togusa wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019

-

Honestly, all I want is:

Add Shock Assault
Offer Heretic Splat Books
Rewrite the gak Word Bearers and Iron Legion chapter tactics, match Alpha Legion to Raven Guard
Chapter Tactics apply to all models.

I'd be plenty happy with that.

Iron Warriors (which I think you meant) isn't terrible right now, it just needs 1 additional rule added, perhaps the doubling of wounds on vehicles (would make sense). Ignoring cover is OK, and would be better if applied to vehicles too.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019

-

Honestly, all I want is:

Add Shock Assault
Offer Heretic Splat Books
Rewrite the gak Word Bearers and Iron Legion chapter tactics, match Alpha Legion to Raven Guard
Chapter Tactics apply to all models.

I'd be plenty happy with that.

Iron Warriors (which I think you meant) isn't terrible right now, it just needs 1 additional rule added, perhaps the doubling of wounds on vehicles (would make sense). Ignoring cover is OK, and would be better if applied to vehicles too.

6+ FNP?
Becuase they also like beeing cybots?

IW has a 6+ FNP strategem. Would be cool to have that on always.

 chimeara wrote:
IW has a 6+ FNP strategem. Would be cool to have that on always.

You wouldn't even need another add on.
They would be the most durable csm gunline then.
And daemon engines might get worth taking for dakka support then.

YES!

Spawn get +1A! ...and daemon engines...

Its a pointless candle, but this is another nail in Word Bearers.

The SM codex is sort of undermining the "we could have added something, but no."

 Daedalus81 wrote:
YES!

Spawn get +1A! ...and daemon engines...

even spawn?!?


Edit: sadly not cultists, but still.
Literally the whole army has now additional shanking on top of it's shanking.