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Of all the recent codices, Orks for the most part got away with some of the more refined or interesting sub-faction traits, so I'm definitely not complaining for the most part. However, just like many other armies, there are some that just stand above the rest, to the point where you barely see any of the other ones short of characters making them mandatory. So instead of the usual spiel of how we would fix the various nuances of the Ork codex, let's just focus on what we'd want to do to fix or touch the Kulturs that are rarely used or seen.

The big 3 that need help are Snakebitez, Blood Axes and Goffs IMO.

Snakebitez Kultur: Keep the 6+ FNP, but add that it can stack up to a 5+ instead if near a Painboy's FNP Aura. As far as a second trait goes, I'm tempted to give them one where they double the amount of wounds left with regards to the damage table for vehicles/monsters, but the problem is that makes them match up with a mech heavy list which doesn't exactly tie in with the Snakebite theme. The other option is to emphasize them as monster/big game hunters, so that against vehicles and monsters they reroll 1's to wound in CC.

Snakebitez WL Trait: To be honest, just go all in and make it so both grots and boyz auto pass morale, just keep the 6" for boyz and 12" for grots. That way it's harder to abuse and its actually worth considering, since by the time most ork units need to take a morale test, re-rolling doesn't do anything. Also makes footslogging green tide lists of old with painboyz and a Warboss in the center possible again.

Snakebitez relic: Decent as is.

Snakebite Stratagem: Lower the cost to 2CP's, I don't think it's worth that level of CP committment. Lower the target's wound total to being 8 to trigger this stratagem, so we can use it on DP and Girlyman.

Goffs Kultur: Keep the 6's explode ability. Also add that they have -1AP to their weapons in the first round of combat where they charged, were charged or heroically intervened. Really puts them to the top of their game as the premier assault kultur in the army, as befitting of Goffs.

Goffs WL Trait: By far one of the crappiest when compared to Might Makes Right. Change it so that the WL trait makes 5's and 6's to hit explode instead of just 6 and that he gets D3 extra attacks when he charges or heroically intervenes. Makes Ghazzy hit like a freight train when he charges.

Goffs relic: A shadow of its former glory in the previous codex. Change it so that it also allows the bearer to reroll failed save rolls (make mega armour great again!) and that it grants all nearby Goff Infantry and Biker units +1 to hit, not just characters.

Goff Stratagem: Honestly not terrible, its just overshadowed due to the basic Goff kultur being meh. I feel with the boost from the change I made that Skarboyz will be worth it, since having S5 AP-1 attacks is pretty damn good en masse.

Blood Axes Kultur: Hardest one to have the most use of, since boyz like being stuck in and people can just fall back, making it largely redundant. I think the biggest change is to make the range for being considered in cover 12", since it makes no sense that of all the factions we have to be outside 18" to get the cover bonus. Debating between replacing fall back and shoot/charge with giving them a 6" consolidation and pile in move to reflect their more tactical mobility.

Blood Axes WL Trait: Make it 5+ to get a CP instead.

Blood Axes Relic: No changes necessary IMO.

Blood Axes Stratagem: Now here's a REAL stinker. Literally only useful to deep striking in tankbustas that short of going over the PL to cost 2 CP for this. Otherwise, pretty much pointless with the existence of TP. Change it so you use it during the actual game, and instead of bringing stuff on from reserves, at the end of your turn you can remove a Blood Axes Infantry squad on the table that isn't in combat and place them anywhere else on the table over 9" away from enemy models for 2CP. If this is a Kommandos unit, it only costs 1CP and you can deploy outside of 6" from the enemy instead. Gives us actual tactical flexibility with "on demand" da jump that we can save for end game objective grabbing and combo it in with actual Da Jump boyz. Meanwhile, it doesn't step on the TP stratagem as much as you can target the units being moved this way.

The other 3 Kulturs and their associated WL trait, relic and kultur are largely fine outside of these outliers:

Deathskullz Stratagem: I feel like no one really uses this because MSU Deathskull armies don't run tankbustas and generally speaking most units have 2 or 1 shot anti-tank weapons so its really wasted on those units. Outside of Lootas I don't see this being used with many units. Maybe change it to 1CP to make it more attractive?

Evil Sunz Relic: It's a cool idea but I feel like it should do something when you're outside a transport, which is kinda the whole point of a Warboss or Big Mek support character. Give the bearer and the vehicle its embarked upon +1" to move but keep the zappy mortal wounds ability as 3" of enemy units when on foot, and extend that range to 6" when he's embarked on a vehicle. Also, change it so that the mortal wounds proc at the end of your movement phase, so you can actually use it.

Evil Sunz WL trait: I feel like this doesn't do much. Keep the fall back and charge, but also add that you a roll D6 for each model within 6" that has fallen back and charged this turn using this WL trait's ability. On a 6 they cause a mortal wound. This is increased to a 5 or 6 if the unit was a speed freeks unit.

Freebootas WL trait: Make it re-roll ones to hit for both shooting and CC for all Freeboota units within 6". If the unit is Flash Gitz, they may re-roll to wound rolls of 1 as well. Makes it so Badrukk actually does something as WL for a Freeboota army.

Freebootas Relic: Once per game, at the start of either the shooting phase, fight phase or morale phase you may choose to unveil the Badskull Banner. If you do so, for the rest of the phase, all units in your army with the Freeboota Kultur within 24" of the bearer of this relic treats as if though an enemy unit has been destroyed by a friendly unit within 24" of them this turn (basically +1 to hit for everyone for that one phase). If you unveil it during the morale phase, it instead allows all friendly Freeboota units within 24" to autopass morale.

Freebootas stratagem: Make it a guaranteed 3 shots, and on you roll a D6 for every model within 3" (friend or foe) of each point, and on a 4+ they suffer a mortal wound.

Bad Moonz Kultur: With just reroll ones to hit, I feel like this isn't a good reflection of the amount of teef that the upper castes of the Orks spend on everything, including their CC and gear. For models with the Character and Nobz keyword, they may reroll ones to hit as well in CC.

This is all I can think up of atm, what you do guys think need to be improved or changed?

I'm not an ork player, so please excuse my ignorance. Here are some impressions from a space elf:

 Grimskul wrote:


Snakebitez Kultur: Keep the 6+ FNP, but add that it can stack up to a 5+ instead if near a Painboy's FNP Aura. As far as a second trait goes, I'm tempted to give them one where they double the amount of wounds left with regards to the damage table for vehicles/monsters, but the problem is that makes them match up with a mech heavy list which doesn't exactly tie in with the Snakebite theme. The other option is to emphasize them as monster/big game hunters, so that against vehicles and monsters they reroll 1's to wound in CC.

Snakebitez WL Trait: To be honest, just go all in and make it so both grots and boyz auto pass morale, just keep the 6" for boyz and 12" for grots. That way it's harder to abuse and its actually worth considering, since by the time most ork units need to take a morale test, re-rolling doesn't do anything. Also makes footslogging green tide lists of old with painboyz and a Warboss in the center possible again.

Snakebitez relic: Decent as is.

Snakebite Stratagem: Lower the cost to 2CP's, I don't think it's worth that level of CP committment. Lower the target's wound total to being 8 to trigger this stratagem, so we can use it on DP and Girlyman.

I'm mostly onboard with this. The stratagem looks pretty potent on paper, so I'm a bit iffy on lowering the cost of the strat. How do FNP 5+ boys compare to the notoriously durable plague bearers? I'm not sure what the cost of a boy vs a plaguebearer is, but the boyz would be almost as durable against AP0 weapons while also having a better offense. I'm iffy about giving a fearless aura to a horde army given how well fearless conscripts went over, but I suppose warbosses can already make a unit almost fearless. Then again, making this a WL trait means you could put it on the painboy you were already taking for the 5+ FNP thus freeing up more points.

Overall, probably okay, but I'd keep an eye on these Snakebitez changes.

Goffs Kultur: Keep the 6's explode ability. Also add that they have -1AP to their weapons in the first round of combat where they charged, were charged or heroically intervened. Really puts them to the top of their game as the premier assault kultur in the army, as befitting of Goffs.

Goffs WL Trait: By far one of the crappiest when compared to Might Makes Right. Change it so that the WL trait makes 5's and 6's to hit explode instead of just 6 and that he gets D3 extra attacks when he charges or heroically intervenes. Makes Ghazzy hit like a freight train when he charges.

Goffs relic: A shadow of its former glory in the previous codex. Change it so that it also allows the bearer to reroll failed save rolls (make mega armour great again!) and that it grants all nearby Goff Infantry and Biker units +1 to hit, not just characters.

Goff Stratagem: Honestly not terrible, its just overshadowed due to the basic Goff kultur being meh. I feel with the boost from the change I made that Skarboyz will be worth it, since having S5 AP-1 attacks is pretty damn good en masse.

The relic seems iffy to me on its own and scary good combined with the kultur. We'd be talking about boyz that put out 4(?) attacks hitting on 2s at strength 4 AP -1 and a handful of extra bonus attacks for rolling 6's to hit, right? That's like, assault doctrine chainsword vanguard vet levels of offense for less than half the cost that can be fielded in squads of 30 and deepstrike (tellyporta) or da jump into combat turn 1.

+1 to the stats of cheap horde units can get really powerful really fast. I feel like this is quite a bit killier than cursed blade wyches, but then again, wyches have 4+ invulns, so maybe it's okay.

Blood Axes Kultur: Hardest one to have the most use of, since boyz like being stuck in and people can just fall back, making it largely redundant. I think the biggest change is to make the range for being considered in cover 12", since it makes no sense that of all the factions we have to be outside 18" to get the cover bonus. Debating between replacing fall back and shoot/charge with giving them a 6" consolidation and pile in move to reflect their more tactical mobility.

Blood Axes WL Trait: Make it 5+ to get a CP instead.

Blood Axes Relic: No changes necessary IMO.

Blood Axes Stratagem: Now here's a REAL stinker. Literally only useful to deep striking in tankbustas that short of going over the PL to cost 2 CP for this. Otherwise, pretty much pointless with the existence of TP. Change it so you use it during the actual game, and instead of bringing stuff on from reserves, at the end of your turn you can remove a Blood Axes Infantry squad on the table that isn't in combat and place them anywhere else on the table over 9" away from enemy models for 2CP. If this is a Kommandos unit, it only costs 1CP and you can deploy outside of 6" from the enemy instead. Gives us actual tactical flexibility with "on demand" da jump that we can save for end game objective grabbing and combo it in with actual Da Jump boyz. Meanwhile, it doesn't step on the TP stratagem as much as you can target the units being moved this way.

Agreed on changing the kultur range to 12". I kind of like the fall back and shoot or charge on paper, but again, haven't used it. Seems like it would be useful for shooty units and vehicles that your opponent is trying to tie up or for assault units that triangle the enemy to lock them in place.

The stratagem as-is also seems good on paper. Is it not beneficial to cheaply deepstrike an additional unit after you've telly ported something else and plan on da jumping one or more units into charge range during the game? If you want to do deepstrike overload orkz, this seems like a good tool for it. But hey, what do I know?

Relocating a squad of boyz mid-battle doesn't really seem like something you can do by virtue of being sneaky. It feels more like some sort of teleportation maneuver or the sudden appearance of reinforcements than a stealthy maneuver. Like, if I killed half your squad on my turn with bolt pistols and then you were suddenly 60" across the table an instant later, that doesn't scream "sneaky." Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're going for?

Deathskullz Stratagem: I feel like no one really uses this because MSU Deathskull armies don't run tankbustas and generally speaking most units have 2 or 1 shot anti-tank weapons so its really wasted on those units. Outside of Lootas I don't see this being used with many units. Maybe change it to 1CP to make it more attractive?

Are deathskullz with shokk attack gun spam and lootas not a pretty popular competitive option right now? Honest question.

Bad Moonz Kultur: With just reroll ones to hit, I feel like this isn't a good reflection of the amount of teef that the upper castes of the Orks spend on everything, including their CC and gear. For models with the Character and Nobz keyword, they may reroll ones to hit as well in CC.

Seems reasonable. Makes the shooting benefit more broadly useful than, for instance, the high-quality weaponry of the Salamanders, but limiting it to characters in melee and to hit rolls of 1 makes it slightly less useful than Salamanders.

How is the Goff WL trait worse than Might Makes Right?
You get an extra point of AP, which synergizes with big choppas nicely. 2 Damage from the big choppa means you're one shotting Primaris, and -2 to armor means 3+ becomes 5+.

I think most of the Ork kultures, traits and shiny gubbinz are find to be honest. Snakebites could probably do with a boost in terms of kulture but I think the rest are ok. Most of the relics perform a decent role and our WL traits are generally decent.

The big exception to this is the redder armour Evil Sunz relic/gubbinz that is literally and objectively completely useless. It needs to function (as you have said) at the start of the opponents movement phase or at the end of your round. It is surely one of, if not the, worst relic in the game as it is and it feels like GW just missed a FAQ on it.

Rather than fixing I would call the topic "updating", there is nothing broken with them.

I must agree with almost every point you made.

For the Goffs kulture, I feel the -1ap could be a bit strong. Maybe it could be refrased as each exploding 6 genrated 2 more impacts (as the necrons immortals). That way you would 8ncrease the damage output vs light armoured but not so much against heavy targets.

That would synergize extremely well with the relic big choppa though. The goff kulture already synergizes with it, making it synergize even more wouldn't be a good idea, imo.

Thanks for all the replies guys! Sorry if this is a bit late, but I had quite the busy weekend...

@Wyldhunt. I see your concern regarding the changes, but plaguebearers are far more survivable and synergistic than Ork boyz buff wise tbh, since they have a 5+ invuln (boyz only have a 6+ save at best and the KFF save both requires boyz to be bunched up and further investment in an expensive HQ) and they can get negatives to hit stacking via -1 to hit from their unit size and potential psychic powers. Obviously Orks are a lot stronger offensively, but I feel like this would make Boyz actually viable from a footslogging perspective.

Regarding Goffs, I get the concern, but consider the fact that we do have WAAAGH! Banners that exist that do the same thing (outside of buffing themselves in CC) but you never see them in most lists. This is because the 6" bubble isn't that big and he can't keep up with tellyporting units that are untouched by shooting.

The Blood Axes stratagem is a tweak to still give them their version of deep striking that is more based on misdirection that is not normally associated with Orks. Just like our Endless Green Tide stratagem allows us to recycle an Ork unit back to full health, it doesn't mean that the dead Orks literally come back to life and tellyport to a different part of the field, its just a representation of the endless reinforcements of more boyz joining the fight. Similarly, my change to the Blood Axes "Dead Sneaky" stratagem is having Orks suddenly disperse and fall back into the vegetation while other boyz attack from another unexpected flank.

Lootas are really only taken with Bad Moonz since they synergize with them so well and most people that run SAG do so with the Dread WAAAGH! relic and just pop the 2CP and shoot twice instead (the warlord trait put on them makes wreckerz redundant).

@CthulusSpy

The Goff Warlord Trait is pointless because Big Choppas on Warbosses are rarely, if ever seen since the Killa Klaw is so much better. Furthermore, the AP is only the first round of combat, +1S does way more since it means you can wound a lot more vehicles on 2's, (i.e. rhinos, hellhounds, walkers) versus the 3 or even 4's you would from using a Big Choppa.

Also, you seem oddly fixated on Big Choppas for Orks, the relic one rarely sees competitive play since it literally only has AP-2 and potentially mortal wounds on 6's to wound. The AP isn't enough to deal with armoured targets and the Killa Klaw is consistently killier (flat 3 damage) re-rolls wounds, has higher strength, better AP AND takes away the -1 to hit. I mean its literally better in every way.

How are you wounding rhinos on a 2+? Don't you double the strength from the weapon, and then add +1 strength, which should give a warboss S13? Iirc, that's how 8th calculates modifiers now.
Edit : No, sorry, I got it confused with how it used to be done. Yeah, it would be at S14.

You take the big choppa so you can use it as a relic and generate mortal wounds. In most cases you would take the killa klaw, as it is crazy good, but with the exploding dice goffs get the relic big choppa is a bit more viable, especially against targets that have an invul. The relic big choppa actually comes with -2 AP base, so the current WL trait improves that to -3.
Big choppas are also nearly 1/3 of the price of a power klaw.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How are you wounding rhinos on a 2+? Don't you double the strength from the weapon, and then add +1 strength, which should give a warboss S13? Iirc, that's how 8th calculates modifiers now.
Edit : No, sorry, I got it confused with how it used to be done. Yeah, it would be at S14.

You take the big choppa so you can use it as a relic and generate mortal wounds. In most cases you would take the killa klaw, as it is crazy good, but with the exploding dice goffs get the relic big choppa is a bit more viable, especially against targets that have an invul. The relic big choppa actually comes with -2 AP base, so the current WL trait improves that to -3.
Big choppas are also nearly 1/3 of the price of a power klaw.

The mortal wound generation isn't enough tbh, since it banks on you rolling 6's to wound and you have no way of rerolling failed to wound rolls as a Goff outside of a Command Reroll which tbh is a waste of a stratagem. If you want mortal wound spam, it makes more sense to use either weirdboyz or using stuff like the Megatrakk Skrapjet charging and using the ramming speed stratagem, both of which are much easier to pull off compared to fishing for 6's. Against big targets like Knights, where they have no invuln. in CC, a Killa Klaw is way better with the flat 3 guaranteed damage and better AP. There are few targets where the Eadwompa's Killchoppa is better, like characters with a 3+ invuln or daemons, but in those cases its more efficient anyways to use mass attacks from boyz or firepower rather than dedicating a character that isn't guaranteed to roll 6's to kill them. It WOULD be better if the Killchoppa did 2 damage in addition to 2 mortal wounds.

I feel like Orks need nerfs, it could be done entirely through pts adjustments or it could come in with nerfs to Stratagems, Relics or Kulturs. Personally, I don't think it's very fluffy that Evil Sunz are the deep strike faction. Make it 3" to advance 6" for Speed Freekz and Transports, no movement or charge bonus. I wouldn't touch Goffs for this reason, now they can be the deep strike option which fits pretty well with the fluff since from what I know they are the ones that make most use of this tactic. -1 AP is a tonne of extra damage and makes all the heavy hitting power in your army useless compared to just slapping more Boyz against the problem until it goes away.

Bad Moons is a strictly better version of what most other codexes get, they need to stand still to get the re-roll 1s. Bad Moons being a meta pick I think it'd be totally fair to somehow nerf them. How? I'm not sure. They could have a weakness of some kind, even if it's just a +1 to be hit in melee by other Ork units because they want to bonk them in the head and steal their teef, it doesn't feel fair that Orks get to keep a strictly superior version of a chapter tactic other factions get while that tactic is used in many of their meta lists IMO.

The Goffs WL trait you suggested is easily one of the best in the game. No combat steroid Trait does this much, this is leagues better than the current alternative. Lower it to +1 in the first round of combat instead of D3 and you've got something reasonable.

Da Killa Klaw clearly needs a nerf, it's so stinking good compared to most other weapon relics. Add a -1 to hit or remove the re-roll wound rolls against vehicles, it's already flat 3 damage and you're strength a bajillion or a bajillion and a half, this is just a cherry on top of a mountain of value and I think it should be removed.

Souped Up Shokka needs a nerf as well. Make it do double damage instead of double shots, it makes it do far less mortal wounds and be less good against infantry and bikes and less good against units with an invul, it's still almost double as effective as the base gun and should still be worth using, I even think it's more fitting for the description of the relic. You can reduce the cost of the model if needed, but I don't think 216 wounds from a single model in a single phase makes sense. I'm only reducing it to 180, you still get the chance to one-shot a Knight with my suggestion, it'll just be a lot less likely, on the other hand you will do the majority of your damage whether you get S 11 or 10.

Da Lucky Stick does very much not need a buff, it's perfectly in line with what most other relics in the game do.

Given the fact you don't need to cause a wound like other factions do to trigger the snakebite Stratagem I don't think it's fair to only pay 2 CP. AFAIK it doesn't help Grots, but the Tau Strat doesn't help Kroot or Vespid either. I'd be totally fine with lowering the number of wounds required to trigger it to 8, it's called monster hunters they should be able to hunt anything with the MONSTER keyword.

Da Jump needs to go off on an 8 or 9. It effectively going off on a 4 is too good for what it does, especially if you don't want to nerf the insane charge rate that you get out of deep strike with +1 from Evil Sunz. Your only consideration as to whether you want to re-roll shouldn't be whether you get it off on a 7 or a 12, but whether you get it off at all, a 4 on 2d6 should not be a good roll when this combined with fighting twice can end a match if your opponent hasn't deployed perfectly and built his list to survive the assault. This is a core Ork strategy and isn't very fun to play against, without it Orks are pretty bad from my understanding, so I can't really see Orks not using it in casual either.

Speaking of fighting twice, nerf it, then nerf dying twice and shooting twice as well. All +1 CP or include some restriction in the Stratagem. Dakka Dakka Dakka should only work the next time you shoot, not for the rest of the phase. I wouldn't nerf the Dread Waagh shoot twice Stratagem, you're already paying for the Detachment and I'm already suggesting nerfing the Shokka.

Buffs? I don't have any suggestions not already made in the thread. I think the rest should be fixed with pts rather than rules.

 vict0988 wrote:
I feel like Orks need nerfs, it could be done entirely through pts adjustments or it could come in with nerfs to Stratagems, Relics or Kulturs. Personally, I don't think it's very fluffy that Evil Sunz are the deep strike faction. Make it 3" to advance 6" for Speed Freekz and Transports, no movement or charge bonus. I wouldn't touch Goffs for this reason, now they can be the deep strike option which fits pretty well with the fluff since from what I know they are the ones that make most use of this tactic. -1 AP is a tonne of extra damage and makes all the heavy hitting power in your army useless compared to just slapping more Boyz against the problem until it goes away.

Bad Moons is a strictly better version of what most other codexes get, they need to stand still to get the re-roll 1s. Bad Moons being a meta pick I think it'd be totally fair to somehow nerf them. How? I'm not sure. They could have a weakness of some kind, even if it's just a +1 to be hit in melee by other Ork units because they want to bonk them in the head and steal their teef, it doesn't feel fair that Orks get to keep a strictly superior version of a chapter tactic other factions get while that tactic is used in many of their meta lists IMO.

The Goffs WL trait you suggested is easily one of the best in the game. No combat steroid Trait does this much, this is leagues better than the current alternative. Lower it to +1 in the first round of combat instead of D3 and you've got something reasonable.

Da Killa Klaw clearly needs a nerf, it's so stinking good compared to most other weapon relics. Add a -1 to hit or remove the re-roll wound rolls against vehicles, it's already flat 3 damage and you're strength a bajillion or a bajillion and a half, this is just a cherry on top of a mountain of value and I think it should be removed.

Souped Up Shokka needs a nerf as well. Make it do double damage instead of double shots, it makes it do far less mortal wounds and be less good against infantry and bikes and less good against units with an invul, it's still almost double as effective as the base gun and should still be worth using, I even think it's more fitting for the description of the relic. You can reduce the cost of the model if needed, but I don't think 216 wounds from a single model in a single phase makes sense. I'm only reducing it to 180, you still get the chance to one-shot a Knight with my suggestion, it'll just be a lot less likely, on the other hand you will do the majority of your damage whether you get S 11 or 10.

Da Lucky Stick does very much not need a buff, it's perfectly in line with what most other relics in the game do.

Given the fact you don't need to cause a wound like other factions do to trigger the snakebite Stratagem I don't think it's fair to only pay 2 CP. AFAIK it doesn't help Grots, but the Tau Strat doesn't help Kroot or Vespid either. I'd be totally fine with lowering the number of wounds required to trigger it to 8, it's called monster hunters they should be able to hunt anything with the MONSTER keyword.

Da Jump needs to go off on an 8 or 9. It effectively going off on a 4 is too good for what it does, especially if you don't want to nerf the insane charge rate that you get out of deep strike with +1 from Evil Sunz. Your only consideration as to whether you want to re-roll shouldn't be whether you get it off on a 7 or a 12, but whether you get it off at all, a 4 on 2d6 should not be a good roll when this combined with fighting twice can end a match if your opponent hasn't deployed perfectly and built his list to survive the assault. This is a core Ork strategy and isn't very fun to play against, without it Orks are pretty bad from my understanding, so I can't really see Orks not using it in casual either.

Speaking of fighting twice, nerf it, then nerf dying twice and shooting twice as well. All +1 CP or include some restriction in the Stratagem. Dakka Dakka Dakka should only work the next time you shoot, not for the rest of the phase. I wouldn't nerf the Dread Waagh shoot twice Stratagem, you're already paying for the Detachment and I'm already suggesting nerfing the Shokka.

Buffs? I don't have any suggestions not already made in the thread. I think the rest should be fixed with pts rather than rules.

I think the point of this thread was how to bring the lagging kulturs up to snuff with the 3 that get widely used. NOT a post saying everything that we can legitimately use with any kind of results should get nerfed. Nothing you have mentioned realistically needs a nerf. Orks are performing well. Not quite top spot but earning top 3. I can go into detail about various things like the SSAG. It used to be a blast so should be able to hurt infantry and heavy units alike.

mhalko1 wrote:
I think the point of this thread was how to bring the lagging kulturs up to snuff with the 3 that get widely used. NOT a post saying everything that we can legitimately use with any kind of results should get nerfed. Nothing you have mentioned realistically needs a nerf. Orks are performing well. Not quite top spot but earning top 3. I can go into detail about various things like the SSAG. It used to be a blast so should be able to hurt infantry and heavy units alike.

Fixing a problem that is there only because of a problem you refuse to fix seems like a bad idea, compared to most factions Ork kulturs are extremely good. Orks perform really well at tournaments, comments about how to fix soup have been posted elsewhere, Orks will not get hit by such nerfs. I could make a separate thread for discussing possible nerfs for Orks taking a bit more hard stance on how good rules should be for Relics, Stratagems, Tactics and Traits should be, but that seems pointless when this thread is discussing the exact same thing, albeit from a slightly different point of view, it's just going in a direction where every CP is worth the world and your WL and relic provide an immense amount of free value that armies like Renegades and Heretics don't get access to because they don't have any relics and because modern WL traits are four or five times more valuable than the basic ones in the main rulebook.

How are you going to fix the Waagh discipline? With one insane power, two good and no others I can remember? Are you going to buff the three bad ones, nerf the one insane one or leave them all be? I was unaware that the relic gun used to be a blast weapon, but given how good it is and given its current description I think a nerf is fitting and what I suggested was one way of doing it. Now I know most players have a deathly aversion to nerfs on their own faction, but do you see no need to nerf this weapon? SM just got a major buff, it's totally possible we're going to be seeing major buffs in the next 24 months to every bad option and incentives to run mono-faction armies even for armies that have other options and that the Stratagems available to every faction will be made 99% obselete by incredibly powerful Stratagems that you have no way of knowing and the only way to prepare for is to read every codex or spend 10 minutes before the battle begins to read every Stratagem. If you don't mind I'd love if you could go into detail about why my suggestions are bad, I'm not an Ork player and if you have the willingness to educate me then I'd like that, I'm speaking as a someone who likes to think of how to do game balance and as someone who has gotten beaten a fair bit by the Ork options and tactics I mentioned. Power creep is not the way I want to go, it leads to matchups where either both armies are unkillable because they Relics, Traits, Stratagems and Tactics on top of eachother to become unkillable or stack it the other way to become one turn murdermachines that take out 60% of the enemy force in a single dedicated turn of ultraviolence. Neither of these extremes are good.

I think Chapter Tactics are a bad design element and I think they are unfair. I think Relics should be costed differently and be kept to a reasonably low level as to not overly punish players who wish to build lists that don't involve one. I think Stratagems should provide alternate ways to use an army or should flavour the playstyle of an army and Stratagems that might catch an enemy off-guard should be heavily costed as to not make an unfun experience for new players who haven't gotten around to reading every Stratagem and who mind losing dozens of games in the name of learning all the Stratagems that might lose them games. I love the Dakka Dakka Dakka Stratagem, it provides something I think is very important to Orks, but Showing Off? I hate it, it's too effecient and it works too well with DDD, especially in the past when it also combined with Mob Up and CP re-roll. I'm not on some single-minded crusade against Orks, this is more of a general thing and I don't think it's unfair to come into a thread that requests an already good faction needs more good options and saying that maybe you can't see the stars for the sun and once it becomes night you actually have a bright and beautiful night sky with lots of fun options that are all relatively cool and have their place if not for the few even better options that are currently making up a large chunk of the 40k meta.

As a renegade and heretics player.......


We still have a index and secondly we should really not be the balance bar.

In. Any. Imaginable. Way.

 vict0988 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I think the point of this thread was how to bring the lagging kulturs up to snuff with the 3 that get widely used. NOT a post saying everything that we can legitimately use with any kind of results should get nerfed. Nothing you have mentioned realistically needs a nerf. Orks are performing well. Not quite top spot but earning top 3. I can go into detail about various things like the SSAG. It used to be a blast so should be able to hurt infantry and heavy units alike.

Fixing a problem that is there only because of a problem you refuse to fix seems like a bad idea, compared to most factions Ork kulturs are extremely good. Orks perform really well at tournaments, comments about how to fix soup have been posted elsewhere, Orks will not get hit by such nerfs. I could make a separate thread for discussing possible nerfs for Orks taking a bit more hard stance on how good rules should be for Relics, Stratagems, Tactics and Traits should be, but that seems pointless when this thread is discussing the exact same thing, albeit from a slightly different point of view, it's just going in a direction where every CP is worth the world and your WL and relic provide an immense amount of free value that armies like Renegades and Heretics don't get access to because they don't have any relics and because modern WL traits are four or five times more valuable than the basic ones in the main rulebook.

How are you going to fix the Waagh discipline? With one insane power, two good and no others I can remember? Are you going to buff the three bad ones, nerf the one insane one or leave them all be? I was unaware that the relic gun used to be a blast weapon, but given how good it is and given its current description I think a nerf is fitting and what I suggested was one way of doing it. Now I know most players have a deathly aversion to nerfs on their own faction, but do you see no need to nerf this weapon? SM just got a major buff, it's totally possible we're going to be seeing major buffs in the next 24 months to every bad option and incentives to run mono-faction armies even for armies that have other options and that the Stratagems available to every faction will be made 99% obselete by incredibly powerful Stratagems that you have no way of knowing and the only way to prepare for is to read every codex or spend 10 minutes before the battle begins to read every Stratagem. If you don't mind I'd love if you could go into detail about why my suggestions are bad, I'm not an Ork player and if you have the willingness to educate me then I'd like that, I'm speaking as a someone who likes to think of how to do game balance and as someone who has gotten beaten a fair bit by the Ork options and tactics I mentioned. Power creep is not the way I want to go, it leads to matchups where either both armies are unkillable because they Relics, Traits, Stratagems and Tactics on top of eachother to become unkillable or stack it the other way to become one turn murdermachines that take out 60% of the enemy force in a single dedicated turn of ultraviolence. Neither of these extremes are good.

I think Chapter Tactics are a bad design element and I think they are unfair. I think Relics should be costed differently and be kept to a reasonably low level as to not overly punish players who wish to build lists that don't involve one. I think Stratagems should provide alternate ways to use an army or should flavour the playstyle of an army and Stratagems that might catch an enemy off-guard should be heavily costed as to not make an unfun experience for new players who haven't gotten around to reading every Stratagem and who mind losing dozens of games in the name of learning all the Stratagems that might lose them games. I love the Dakka Dakka Dakka Stratagem, it provides something I think is very important to Orks, but Showing Off? I hate it, it's too effecient and it works too well with DDD, especially in the past when it also combined with Mob Up and CP re-roll. I'm not on some single-minded crusade against Orks, this is more of a general thing and I don't think it's unfair to come into a thread that requests an already good faction needs more good options and saying that maybe you can't see the stars for the sun and once it becomes night you actually have a bright and beautiful night sky with lots of fun options that are all relatively cool and have their place if not for the few even better options that are currently making up a large chunk of the 40k meta.

See, I disagree with that design philosophy you have there. So because Orks can actually stand up competitively with its new codex it now needs to be nerfed? Excuse me, what? Do we only get to be relegated to being an NPC race that everyone can beat around and its fine because we're Orks? Does this mean that every faction that currently is competitive has to be nerfed into the ground? Look at what happened to conscripts, they went from a no-brainer choice to an entirely redundant one outside maybe one Valhallan build because they went too hard on the nerf-bat. An army being competitive in itself is not a bad thing unless it is egregiously overpowered in its competitiveness, as in they are overwhelmingly dominant in the meta, to the extent that no army can effectively challenge you outside yourself. Orks are doing well, but certainly not in the capacity you seem to believe we are. By nerfing the things we do have that are working competitively, you're basically taking away the only things that keep us on par with Knights and other soup armies. Don't forget we can't cherry pick like Imperials or Chaos can. Notice that my changes here are only buffing the options that AREN'T seen on a common basis. This means you'll see more variety in the army, skew the Ork power level even more. You clearly have little understanding of the Ork codex itself if your first comparison is to R and H, which as previously mentioned, is a horrible basis for how army balance is looked at (it's not even a main army faction...). The reason why one choice is better than others competitively is more often than not due to the other options not being good enough in comparison or serving no effective purpose in the army. If you want a non-Ork example, look at assault marines. They're completely pointless, even with the recent changes, since VV outdo them in almost every way. Would your solution be to nerf all the CC options in the SM army to match their level so they look more attractive? Because from what you're telling me, that's what you effectively believe in.

 Grimskul wrote:

Spoiler:

 vict0988 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I think the point of this thread was how to bring the lagging kulturs up to snuff with the 3 that get widely used. NOT a post saying everything that we can legitimately use with any kind of results should get nerfed. Nothing you have mentioned realistically needs a nerf. Orks are performing well. Not quite top spot but earning top 3. I can go into detail about various things like the SSAG. It used to be a blast so should be able to hurt infantry and heavy units alike.

Fixing a problem that is there only because of a problem you refuse to fix seems like a bad idea, compared to most factions Ork kulturs are extremely good. Orks perform really well at tournaments, comments about how to fix soup have been posted elsewhere, Orks will not get hit by such nerfs. I could make a separate thread for discussing possible nerfs for Orks taking a bit more hard stance on how good rules should be for Relics, Stratagems, Tactics and Traits should be, but that seems pointless when this thread is discussing the exact same thing, albeit from a slightly different point of view, it's just going in a direction where every CP is worth the world and your WL and relic provide an immense amount of free value that armies like Renegades and Heretics don't get access to because they don't have any relics and because modern WL traits are four or five times more valuable than the basic ones in the main rulebook.

How are you going to fix the Waagh discipline? With one insane power, two good and no others I can remember? Are you going to buff the three bad ones, nerf the one insane one or leave them all be? I was unaware that the relic gun used to be a blast weapon, but given how good it is and given its current description I think a nerf is fitting and what I suggested was one way of doing it. Now I know most players have a deathly aversion to nerfs on their own faction, but do you see no need to nerf this weapon? SM just got a major buff, it's totally possible we're going to be seeing major buffs in the next 24 months to every bad option and incentives to run mono-faction armies even for armies that have other options and that the Stratagems available to every faction will be made 99% obselete by incredibly powerful Stratagems that you have no way of knowing and the only way to prepare for is to read every codex or spend 10 minutes before the battle begins to read every Stratagem. If you don't mind I'd love if you could go into detail about why my suggestions are bad, I'm not an Ork player and if you have the willingness to educate me then I'd like that, I'm speaking as a someone who likes to think of how to do game balance and as someone who has gotten beaten a fair bit by the Ork options and tactics I mentioned. Power creep is not the way I want to go, it leads to matchups where either both armies are unkillable because they Relics, Traits, Stratagems and Tactics on top of eachother to become unkillable or stack it the other way to become one turn murdermachines that take out 60% of the enemy force in a single dedicated turn of ultraviolence. Neither of these extremes are good.

I think Chapter Tactics are a bad design element and I think they are unfair. I think Relics should be costed differently and be kept to a reasonably low level as to not overly punish players who wish to build lists that don't involve one. I think Stratagems should provide alternate ways to use an army or should flavour the playstyle of an army and Stratagems that might catch an enemy off-guard should be heavily costed as to not make an unfun experience for new players who haven't gotten around to reading every Stratagem and who mind losing dozens of games in the name of learning all the Stratagems that might lose them games. I love the Dakka Dakka Dakka Stratagem, it provides something I think is very important to Orks, but Showing Off? I hate it, it's too effecient and it works too well with DDD, especially in the past when it also combined with Mob Up and CP re-roll. I'm not on some single-minded crusade against Orks, this is more of a general thing and I don't think it's unfair to come into a thread that requests an already good faction needs more good options and saying that maybe you can't see the stars for the sun and once it becomes night you actually have a bright and beautiful night sky with lots of fun options that are all relatively cool and have their place if not for the few even better options that are currently making up a large chunk of the 40k meta.

See, I disagree with that design philosophy you have there. So because Orks can actually stand up competitively with its new codex it now needs to be nerfed? Excuse me, what?

Yes.

Do we only get to be relegated to being an NPC race that everyone can beat around and its fine because we're Orks?

No. Let's nerf everything including Grey Knights, wait GW already did nerf Grey Knight Grandmasters in Dreadknight Armour yaaaay, nobody gets to have OP stuff. (No more 2++)

Does this mean that every faction that currently is competitive has to be nerfed into the ground?

Yes and no. Nerfed, not into the ground. Make Bad Sunz worse at the DS charge business, that won't make Orks terrible at that, it'll just mean you'll have to go with the less efficient Deathskullz or Goffs when going for that tactic and nerfing Da Jump won't make it unusable, just less flawless and an option rather than a necessity. Trukks are expensive, but them being worthless is partly caused by Da Jump being harder to fail than to perils on.

Look at what happened to conscripts, they went from a no-brainer choice to an entirely redundant one outside maybe one Valhallan build because they went too hard on the nerf-bat.

I agree that the Conscript nerf was a mistake, but only because it wasn't accompanied by an Infantry Squad nerf as well, I'm still waiting for that one ^^. Conscripts were everywhere and far too cheap for what they did, you should not be able to fill your deployment zone for basically no pts even though you are playing Knights or goldy boys.

An army being competitive in itself is not a bad thing unless it is egregiously overpowered in its competitiveness, as in they are overwhelmingly dominant in the meta, to the extent that no army can effectively challenge you outside yourself. Orks are doing well, but certainly not in the capacity you seem to believe we are.

I'd argue it is, because with how good the very best units in the game are, we're not going to have enough difference in pts at the low end to differentiate between a Kroot and a Guardsman, Kroot are too good to be 3 because 3 pts/model is insanity, even the T2 grots are worth it at 3 pts, 4 pts is horrible omg Kroot are worthless because they get compared to Fire Warriors buffed by Tau Sept, firing 3 shots at RF range when near a relatively cheap HQ. Now we can continue rolling the snowball of buffs until a pt is worth nothing and a Guardsman is worth 3,7 pts and a Kroot is worth 3,4 or we can nerf Infantry Squads to 5 pts per model. Keep Chapter Tactics in check so a choice isn't only viable in a single Chapter and so more than 1-2 Chapters from each book are usable or we can buff CT until they just grant a flat +1 to hit all the time and so everything that doesn't directly benefit is worthless. I left my aegis defence line at a buddy's place, he stole my icarus whatever autocannon and glued it to a tank, I'm not even mad, it's useless because it'll never get a chapter tactic or any Stratagems.

By nerfing the things we do have that are working competitively, you're basically taking away the only things that keep us on par with Knights and other soup armies. Don't forget we can't cherry pick like Imperials or Chaos can.

I already said I wanted to nerf soup, Orks are one of the very best mono-faction armies even after the SM buffs.

Notice that my changes here are only buffing the options that AREN'T seen on a common basis. This means you'll see more variety in the army, skew the Ork power level even more.

It also means units that are even more OP than the most OP unit that currently exists, like maybe Ghazhkull becomes the new hotness and goes around and does unfair things when he gets lowered 50 pts and his WL trait is tripled ineffectiveness. It also means missing units like GW did when buffing Necrons, sure we had our previously okay units buffed to be actually competitive, the DDA, Tesla Immortals and Tomb Blades, but they also missed FW Canoptek Acanthrites and did not buff C'tan enough for them to be worth taking over the now buffed units that were already better than them.

You clearly have little understanding of the Ork codex itself if your first comparison is to R and H, which as previously mentioned, is a horrible basis for how army balance is looked at (it's not even a main army faction...).

So anything that is not a main army faction should be useless? They should be NPCs? You of course didn't mind the times were Orks were an NPC faction did you? It's also not about making Orks useless or making Renegades and Heretics useful, that can only be done through pts. It's about fixing bad design principles by limiting the power of Relics, Stratagems, Traits and Tactics. Take an army with only Unique HQs? Get nerfed, or we could limit the power of Relics. Take an army without double or triple Battalion or an army that doesn't cater to the 1-5 OP Stratagems in your faction? Get nerfed, or we could limit the power of CP. Take an army with a Unique Warlord with a bad Trait? Get nerfed, I agree the Goff trait should be buffed, whenever you buff things you'll inevitably create new even more OP things, that's why I'd like to slightly nerf the best things and buff the bad things only a little bit.

The reason why one choice is better than others competitively is more often than not due to the other options not being good enough in comparison or serving no effective purpose in the army. If you want a non-Ork example, look at assault marines. They're completely pointless, even with the recent changes, since VV outdo them in almost every way. Would your solution be to nerf all the CC options in the SM army to match their level so they look more attractive? Because from what you're telling me, that's what you effectively believe in.

I did think Assault Marines needed a buff, but not because they were weak, but because they didn't fit the fluff. If weakness was my only concern I'd just make them 8 pts/model, giving a faction wide buff as you said, is not going to fix them. So when are Assault Marines going to be fixed? Are their rules good enough that they are going to be worth more than 11 pts with jump packs? Yeah, but the ones without? They are worth almost nothing, between being a FA unit and only getting 50% more attacks than Tacticals on the charge? We're already seeing the problems of the beginning of power creep with 11 pt Tacs probably still not being good enough, when will enough be enough?

 vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grimskul wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I think the point of this thread was how to bring the lagging kulturs up to snuff with the 3 that get widely used. NOT a post saying everything that we can legitimately use with any kind of results should get nerfed. Nothing you have mentioned realistically needs a nerf. Orks are performing well. Not quite top spot but earning top 3. I can go into detail about various things like the SSAG. It used to be a blast so should be able to hurt infantry and heavy units alike.

Fixing a problem that is there only because of a problem you refuse to fix seems like a bad idea, compared to most factions Ork kulturs are extremely good. Orks perform really well at tournaments, comments about how to fix soup have been posted elsewhere, Orks will not get hit by such nerfs. I could make a separate thread for discussing possible nerfs for Orks taking a bit more hard stance on how good rules should be for Relics, Stratagems, Tactics and Traits should be, but that seems pointless when this thread is discussing the exact same thing, albeit from a slightly different point of view, it's just going in a direction where every CP is worth the world and your WL and relic provide an immense amount of free value that armies like Renegades and Heretics don't get access to because they don't have any relics and because modern WL traits are four or five times more valuable than the basic ones in the main rulebook.

How are you going to fix the Waagh discipline? With one insane power, two good and no others I can remember? Are you going to buff the three bad ones, nerf the one insane one or leave them all be? I was unaware that the relic gun used to be a blast weapon, but given how good it is and given its current description I think a nerf is fitting and what I suggested was one way of doing it. Now I know most players have a deathly aversion to nerfs on their own faction, but do you see no need to nerf this weapon? SM just got a major buff, it's totally possible we're going to be seeing major buffs in the next 24 months to every bad option and incentives to run mono-faction armies even for armies that have other options and that the Stratagems available to every faction will be made 99% obselete by incredibly powerful Stratagems that you have no way of knowing and the only way to prepare for is to read every codex or spend 10 minutes before the battle begins to read every Stratagem. If you don't mind I'd love if you could go into detail about why my suggestions are bad, I'm not an Ork player and if you have the willingness to educate me then I'd like that, I'm speaking as a someone who likes to think of how to do game balance and as someone who has gotten beaten a fair bit by the Ork options and tactics I mentioned. Power creep is not the way I want to go, it leads to matchups where either both armies are unkillable because they Relics, Traits, Stratagems and Tactics on top of eachother to become unkillable or stack it the other way to become one turn murdermachines that take out 60% of the enemy force in a single dedicated turn of ultraviolence. Neither of these extremes are good.

I think Chapter Tactics are a bad design element and I think they are unfair. I think Relics should be costed differently and be kept to a reasonably low level as to not overly punish players who wish to build lists that don't involve one. I think Stratagems should provide alternate ways to use an army or should flavour the playstyle of an army and Stratagems that might catch an enemy off-guard should be heavily costed as to not make an unfun experience for new players who haven't gotten around to reading every Stratagem and who mind losing dozens of games in the name of learning all the Stratagems that might lose them games. I love the Dakka Dakka Dakka Stratagem, it provides something I think is very important to Orks, but Showing Off? I hate it, it's too effecient and it works too well with DDD, especially in the past when it also combined with Mob Up and CP re-roll. I'm not on some single-minded crusade against Orks, this is more of a general thing and I don't think it's unfair to come into a thread that requests an already good faction needs more good options and saying that maybe you can't see the stars for the sun and once it becomes night you actually have a bright and beautiful night sky with lots of fun options that are all relatively cool and have their place if not for the few even better options that are currently making up a large chunk of the 40k meta.

See, I disagree with that design philosophy you have there. So because Orks can actually stand up competitively with its new codex it now needs to be nerfed? Excuse me, what?

Yes.

Do we only get to be relegated to being an NPC race that everyone can beat around and its fine because we're Orks?

No. Let's nerf everything including Grey Knights, wait GW already did nerf Grey Knight Grandmasters in Dreadknight Armour yaaaay, nobody gets to have OP stuff. (No more 2++)

Does this mean that every faction that currently is competitive has to be nerfed into the ground?

Yes and no. Nerfed, not into the ground. Make Bad Sunz worse at the DS charge business, that won't make Orks terrible at that, it'll just mean you'll have to go with the less efficient Deathskullz or Goffs when going for that tactic and nerfing Da Jump won't make it unusable, just less flawless and an option rather than a necessity. Trukks are expensive, but them being worthless is partly caused by Da Jump being harder to fail than to perils on.

Look at what happened to conscripts, they went from a no-brainer choice to an entirely redundant one outside maybe one Valhallan build because they went too hard on the nerf-bat.

I agree that the Conscript nerf was a mistake, but only because it wasn't accompanied by an Infantry Squad nerf as well, I'm still waiting for that one ^^. Conscripts were everywhere and far too cheap for what they did, you should not be able to fill your deployment zone for basically no pts even though you are playing Knights or goldy boys.

An army being competitive in itself is not a bad thing unless it is egregiously overpowered in its competitiveness, as in they are overwhelmingly dominant in the meta, to the extent that no army can effectively challenge you outside yourself. Orks are doing well, but certainly not in the capacity you seem to believe we are.

I'd argue it is, because with how good the very best units in the game are, we're not going to have enough difference in pts at the low end to differentiate between a Kroot and a Guardsman, Kroot are too good to be 3 because 3 pts/model is insanity, even the T2 grots are worth it at 3 pts, 4 pts is horrible omg Kroot are worthless because they get compared to Fire Warriors buffed by Tau Sept, firing 3 shots at RF range when near a relatively cheap HQ. Now we can continue rolling the snowball of buffs until a pt is worth nothing and a Guardsman is worth 3,7 pts and a Kroot is worth 3,4 or we can nerf Infantry Squads to 5 pts per model. Keep Chapter Tactics in check so a choice isn't only viable in a single Chapter and so more than 1-2 Chapters from each book are usable or we can buff CT until they just grant a flat +1 to hit all the time and so everything that doesn't directly benefit is worthless. I left my aegis defence line at a buddy's place, he stole my icarus whatever autocannon and glued it to a tank, I'm not even mad, it's useless because it'll never get a chapter tactic or any Stratagems.

By nerfing the things we do have that are working competitively, you're basically taking away the only things that keep us on par with Knights and other soup armies. Don't forget we can't cherry pick like Imperials or Chaos can.

I already said I wanted to nerf soup, Orks are one of the very best mono-faction armies even after the SM buffs.

Notice that my changes here are only buffing the options that AREN'T seen on a common basis. This means you'll see more variety in the army, skew the Ork power level even more.

It also means units that are even more OP than the most OP unit that currently exists, like maybe Ghazhkull becomes the new hotness and goes around and does unfair things when he gets lowered 50 pts and his WL trait is tripled ineffectiveness. It also means missing units like GW did when buffing Necrons, sure we had our previously okay units buffed to be actually competitive, the DDA, Tesla Immortals and Tomb Blades, but they also missed FW Canoptek Acanthrites and did not buff C'tan enough for them to be worth taking over the now buffed units that were already better than them.

You clearly have little understanding of the Ork codex itself if your first comparison is to R and H, which as previously mentioned, is a horrible basis for how army balance is looked at (it's not even a main army faction...).

So anything that is not a main army faction should be useless? They should be NPCs? You of course didn't mind the times were Orks were an NPC faction did you? It's also not about making Orks useless or making Renegades and Heretics useful, that can only be done through pts. It's about fixing bad design principles by limiting the power of Relics, Stratagems, Traits and Tactics. Take an army with only Unique HQs? Get nerfed, or we could limit the power of Relics. Take an army without double or triple Battalion or an army that doesn't cater to the 1-5 OP Stratagems in your faction? Get nerfed, or we could limit the power of CP. Take an army with a Unique Warlord with a bad Trait? Get nerfed, I agree the Goff trait should be buffed, whenever you buff things you'll inevitably create new even more OP things, that's why I'd like to slightly nerf the best things and buff the bad things only a little bit.

The reason why one choice is better than others competitively is more often than not due to the other options not being good enough in comparison or serving no effective purpose in the army. If you want a non-Ork example, look at assault marines. They're completely pointless, even with the recent changes, since VV outdo them in almost every way. Would your solution be to nerf all the CC options in the SM army to match their level so they look more attractive? Because from what you're telling me, that's what you effectively believe in.

I did think Assault Marines needed a buff, but not because they were weak, but because they didn't fit the fluff. If weakness was my only concern I'd just make them 8 pts/model, giving a faction wide buff as you said, is not going to fix them. So when are Assault Marines going to be fixed? Are their rules good enough that they are going to be worth more than 11 pts with jump packs? Yeah, but the ones without? They are worth almost nothing, between being a FA unit and only getting 50% more attacks than Tacticals on the charge? We're already seeing the problems of the beginning of power creep with 11 pt Tacs probably still not being good enough, when will enough be enough?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grimskul wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I think the point of this thread was how to bring the lagging kulturs up to snuff with the 3 that get widely used. NOT a post saying everything that we can legitimately use with any kind of results should get nerfed. Nothing you have mentioned realistically needs a nerf. Orks are performing well. Not quite top spot but earning top 3. I can go into detail about various things like the SSAG. It used to be a blast so should be able to hurt infantry and heavy units alike.

Fixing a problem that is there only because of a problem you refuse to fix seems like a bad idea, compared to most factions Ork kulturs are extremely good. Orks perform really well at tournaments, comments about how to fix soup have been posted elsewhere, Orks will not get hit by such nerfs. I could make a separate thread for discussing possible nerfs for Orks taking a bit more hard stance on how good rules should be for Relics, Stratagems, Tactics and Traits should be, but that seems pointless when this thread is discussing the exact same thing, albeit from a slightly different point of view, it's just going in a direction where every CP is worth the world and your WL and relic provide an immense amount of free value that armies like Renegades and Heretics don't get access to because they don't have any relics and because modern WL traits are four or five times more valuable than the basic ones in the main rulebook.

How are you going to fix the Waagh discipline? With one insane power, two good and no others I can remember? Are you going to buff the three bad ones, nerf the one insane one or leave them all be? I was unaware that the relic gun used to be a blast weapon, but given how good it is and given its current description I think a nerf is fitting and what I suggested was one way of doing it. Now I know most players have a deathly aversion to nerfs on their own faction, but do you see no need to nerf this weapon? SM just got a major buff, it's totally possible we're going to be seeing major buffs in the next 24 months to every bad option and incentives to run mono-faction armies even for armies that have other options and that the Stratagems available to every faction will be made 99% obselete by incredibly powerful Stratagems that you have no way of knowing and the only way to prepare for is to read every codex or spend 10 minutes before the battle begins to read every Stratagem. If you don't mind I'd love if you could go into detail about why my suggestions are bad, I'm not an Ork player and if you have the willingness to educate me then I'd like that, I'm speaking as a someone who likes to think of how to do game balance and as someone who has gotten beaten a fair bit by the Ork options and tactics I mentioned. Power creep is not the way I want to go, it leads to matchups where either both armies are unkillable because they Relics, Traits, Stratagems and Tactics on top of eachother to become unkillable or stack it the other way to become one turn murdermachines that take out 60% of the enemy force in a single dedicated turn of ultraviolence. Neither of these extremes are good.

I think Chapter Tactics are a bad design element and I think they are unfair. I think Relics should be costed differently and be kept to a reasonably low level as to not overly punish players who wish to build lists that don't involve one. I think Stratagems should provide alternate ways to use an army or should flavour the playstyle of an army and Stratagems that might catch an enemy off-guard should be heavily costed as to not make an unfun experience for new players who haven't gotten around to reading every Stratagem and who mind losing dozens of games in the name of learning all the Stratagems that might lose them games. I love the Dakka Dakka Dakka Stratagem, it provides something I think is very important to Orks, but Showing Off? I hate it, it's too effecient and it works too well with DDD, especially in the past when it also combined with Mob Up and CP re-roll. I'm not on some single-minded crusade against Orks, this is more of a general thing and I don't think it's unfair to come into a thread that requests an already good faction needs more good options and saying that maybe you can't see the stars for the sun and once it becomes night you actually have a bright and beautiful night sky with lots of fun options that are all relatively cool and have their place if not for the few even better options that are currently making up a large chunk of the 40k meta.

See, I disagree with that design philosophy you have there. So because Orks can actually stand up competitively with its new codex it now needs to be nerfed? Excuse me, what?

Yes.

Do we only get to be relegated to being an NPC race that everyone can beat around and its fine because we're Orks?

No. Let's nerf everything including Grey Knights, wait GW already did nerf Grey Knight Grandmasters in Dreadknight Armour yaaaay, nobody gets to have OP stuff. (No more 2++)

Does this mean that every faction that currently is competitive has to be nerfed into the ground?

Yes and no. Nerfed, not into the ground. Make Bad Sunz worse at the DS charge business, that won't make Orks terrible at that, it'll just mean you'll have to go with the less efficient Deathskullz or Goffs when going for that tactic and nerfing Da Jump won't make it unusable, just less flawless and an option rather than a necessity. Trukks are expensive, but them being worthless is partly caused by Da Jump being harder to fail than to perils on.

Look at what happened to conscripts, they went from a no-brainer choice to an entirely redundant one outside maybe one Valhallan build because they went too hard on the nerf-bat.

I agree that the Conscript nerf was a mistake, but only because it wasn't accompanied by an Infantry Squad nerf as well, I'm still waiting for that one ^^. Conscripts were everywhere and far too cheap for what they did, you should not be able to fill your deployment zone for basically no pts even though you are playing Knights or goldy boys.

An army being competitive in itself is not a bad thing unless it is egregiously overpowered in its competitiveness, as in they are overwhelmingly dominant in the meta, to the extent that no army can effectively challenge you outside yourself. Orks are doing well, but certainly not in the capacity you seem to believe we are.

I'd argue it is, because with how good the very best units in the game are, we're not going to have enough difference in pts at the low end to differentiate between a Kroot and a Guardsman, Kroot are too good to be 3 because 3 pts/model is insanity, even the T2 grots are worth it at 3 pts, 4 pts is horrible omg Kroot are worthless because they get compared to Fire Warriors buffed by Tau Sept, firing 3 shots at RF range when near a relatively cheap HQ. Now we can continue rolling the snowball of buffs until a pt is worth nothing and a Guardsman is worth 3,7 pts and a Kroot is worth 3,4 or we can nerf Infantry Squads to 5 pts per model. Keep Chapter Tactics in check so a choice isn't only viable in a single Chapter and so more than 1-2 Chapters from each book are usable or we can buff CT until they just grant a flat +1 to hit all the time and so everything that doesn't directly benefit is worthless. I left my aegis defence line at a buddy's place, he stole my icarus whatever autocannon and glued it to a tank, I'm not even mad, it's useless because it'll never get a chapter tactic or any Stratagems.

By nerfing the things we do have that are working competitively, you're basically taking away the only things that keep us on par with Knights and other soup armies. Don't forget we can't cherry pick like Imperials or Chaos can.

I already said I wanted to nerf soup, Orks are one of the very best mono-faction armies even after the SM buffs.

Notice that my changes here are only buffing the options that AREN'T seen on a common basis. This means you'll see more variety in the army, skew the Ork power level even more.

It also means units that are even more OP than the most OP unit that currently exists, like maybe Ghazhkull becomes the new hotness and goes around and does unfair things when he gets lowered 50 pts and his WL trait is tripled ineffectiveness. It also means missing units like GW did when buffing Necrons, sure we had our previously okay units buffed to be actually competitive, the DDA, Tesla Immortals and Tomb Blades, but they also missed FW Canoptek Acanthrites and did not buff C'tan enough for them to be worth taking over the now buffed units that were already better than them.

You clearly have little understanding of the Ork codex itself if your first comparison is to R and H, which as previously mentioned, is a horrible basis for how army balance is looked at (it's not even a main army faction...).

So anything that is not a main army faction should be useless? They should be NPCs? You of course didn't mind the times were Orks were an NPC faction did you? It's also not about making Orks useless or making Renegades and Heretics useful, that can only be done through pts. It's about fixing bad design principles by limiting the power of Relics, Stratagems, Traits and Tactics. Take an army with only Unique HQs? Get nerfed, or we could limit the power of Relics. Take an army without double or triple Battalion or an army that doesn't cater to the 1-5 OP Stratagems in your faction? Get nerfed, or we could limit the power of CP. Take an army with a Unique Warlord with a bad Trait? Get nerfed, I agree the Goff trait should be buffed, whenever you buff things you'll inevitably create new even more OP things, that's why I'd like to slightly nerf the best things and buff the bad things only a little bit.

The reason why one choice is better than others competitively is more often than not due to the other options not being good enough in comparison or serving no effective purpose in the army. If you want a non-Ork example, look at assault marines. They're completely pointless, even with the recent changes, since VV outdo them in almost every way. Would your solution be to nerf all the CC options in the SM army to match their level so they look more attractive? Because from what you're telling me, that's what you effectively believe in.

I did think Assault Marines needed a buff, but not because they were weak, but because they didn't fit the fluff. If weakness was my only concern I'd just make them 8 pts/model, giving a faction wide buff as you said, is not going to fix them. So when are Assault Marines going to be fixed? Are their rules good enough that they are going to be worth more than 11 pts with jump packs? Yeah, but the ones without? They are worth almost nothing, between being a FA unit and only getting 50% more attacks than Tacticals on the charge? We're already seeing the problems of the beginning of power creep with 11 pt Tacs probably still not being good enough, when will enough be enough?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

No disrespect intended here but you clearly have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Your proposed changes would make Orks unplayable. We have a dropping win % as is and though we manage to get on the podium at events, it is usually those that are smaller in size because our most competitive build is easily countered and relies on crutches. Smasha Guns and likely Mek Guns in general will get a nerf in the next CA which will be another neuter to our performing competitive lists (good luck finding a podium list without a massive reliance on Smasha Guns).

Though we have more units that are playable than other factions - we still have many that are utter garbage. Our entire fast attack slot is a joke. When you’re an actual Evil Sunz player (not a bandwagon jumper) like me that basically means my sub faction is useless. I have tried (and still try) to field my bikes, buggies and Nob Bikes list. It doesn’t end well.

Your suggestions seem to come from a place of bitterness that your own faction(s) aren’t doing well and are very, very ill informed. In other words they are poor suggestions. Without Da Jump Boyz become a waste of points. Without our relics our warbosses become a waste of points. Without our sub faction traits as strong as they are, our entire army becomes a waste of points. Without Dakka Dakka Dakka we have no shooting. Your changes would also shoehorn is into a mono list build that would probably be flyer spam, SSAG/SAG spam and Grots. No thanks.

It wouldn't make Orks unplayable, you'd still get Da Jump off more often than not, you'd still successfully charge more often than not after doing it and you'd get the benefit of being Goff or Deathskulls. I'm also not suggesting this happen in a vacuum, I'm not sure why you think I am. If you buff Orks then Knights and AM need to get buffs as well. Now that might not mean much to you given that it'll mostly be the worst choices that get buffed, but some of those choices will be already good choices or will be buffed so much to keep up with the meta tendencies that they'll be just as powerful as meta Knight options currently are. How about buffing fearsome reputation so you get LD 7 regardless of modifiers if within 12", sucks to be an Ork now doesn't it? But it's totally fair, otherwise, it wouldn't be able to compete with the other OP traits Knights get and we can't nerf them because then they'll be unviable in competitive, that's a bad argument IMO. Power creep is not the solution to all our problems, you gotta take the sweet with sour and we need nerfs, things are getting out of hand with the modern power of these things we are discussing IMO.

Your bikes would not be fun to play against if they were as good a choice as Da Jumping Boyz, there is no room for a viable Trukk when the rules for Da Jump are this good without making Trukks annoying to play against because they'd have to be incredibly cheap to compete.

I'm not coming from a place of bitterness, as I said I wanted to nerf Grey Knights, I think the removal of 2++ is enough so I'm not sure if I can find anything I want to nerf there any longer. I don't play Grey Knights though, I play Necrons and I have suggested nerfing them as well, I suggested nerfing two of their best Stratagems, their best Relic and three of their best units. I was ecstatic when the leaks for CA2018 came out and Necrons got buffs, I have almost nothing to be salty about since GW ruled that I can keep MWBD after using Veil of Darkness. I also suggested nerfing every other faction when the discussion comes up, I'm a nerf aficionado, thinking of ways to ruin the list of tournament players is my hobby and I don't believe I'm ill-informed and you still haven't pointed out exactly how I am ill-informed. Maybe you can point out a game with lots of healthy power creep that never has to be contained? Heard of a little game called Yugioh? Keeping up with power creep is a full-time job besides the one you need to afford the cards. How about MTG or Hearthstone which has had to create new formats to contain old OP sets from ruining the development of new sets? How is GW going to release new units if their old ones are so OP that the new ones are useless except by introducing more and more power creep? The only end to this discussion is me being right or AdMech getting hundreds of free pts if they don't soup. There is nothing fluffy or thematic about shooting twice or fighting twice, it's a simple steroid most of the time or maybe a tactical manoeuvre, but it doesn't really forge any kind of a narrative and most of these Stratagems are wildly OP and make it impossible to spend CP on the smaller more quaint than powerful Stratagems.

@vict you're I'll informed because you don't understand how the army functions and your statements make this pretty clear. I told you above, your suggestions render many of our units useless.

You probably understand the changes that need to happen to Crons because you play them. You obviously don't play Orks so your experience is limited and hence your suggestions are poor.

As an exsmple - you clearly have an issue with da jump. You realise it can be attempted on only one unit a turn and there is a high likelihood that the Weirdboy suffers perils right? You realise the chances of getting the power off drop as you kill more Ork models near the weirdboy right? You understand that with proper screening da jump is not as powerful a tool? Many an evil sunz player has failed the 8 inch rerollable charge by the way, which means they've just given up a boys squad for nothing. Its a risk/reward play which is entirely appropriate for Orks.

Players just tend to remember their negative experiences and perceptions of games. They only remember the times the Ork player makes the charge from da jump and never when they fail. They only remember those times the Ork jumped into their lines and crushed because they did not screen properly. They only remember when the SSAG performs way, waaay above average and not when it does nothing. The SSAG is not a good weapon according to averages, it simply performs a function that Orks otherwise lack (long range, reliable anti armour).

As I stated and maintain, your suggestions make my faction not only significantly weaker but also much more boring to play. Both of which are not really in the spirit of this discussion.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
@vict you're I'll informed because you don't understand how the army functions and your statements make this pretty clear. I told you above, your suggestions render many of our units useless.

You probably understand the changes that need to happen to Crons because you play them. You obviously don't play Orks so your experience is limited and hence your suggestions are poor.

As an exsmple - you clearly have an issue with da jump. You realise it can be attempted on only one unit a turn and there is a high likelihood that the Weirdboy suffers perils right? You realise the chances of getting the power off drop as you kill more Ork models near the weirdboy right? You understand that with proper screening da jump is not as powerful a tool? Many an evil sunz player has failed the 8 inch rerollable charge by the way, which means they've just given up a boys squad for nothing. Its a risk/reward play which is entirely appropriate for Orks.

Players just tend to remember their negative experiences and perceptions of games. They only remember the times the Ork player makes the charge from da jump and never when they fail. They only remember those times the Ork jumped into their lines and crushed because they did not screen properly. They only remember when the SSAG performs way, waaay above average and not when it does nothing. The SSAG is not a good weapon according to averages, it simply performs a function that Orks otherwise lack (long range, reliable anti armour).

As I stated and maintain, your suggestions make my faction not only significantly weaker but also much more boring to play. Both of which are not really in the spirit of this discussion.

Pretty much Englishman said, it's a bit disingenuous to jump into an Ork army oriented thread and make all these changes for the sake of your idea of "balance" when you've already admitted you have no actual experience in playing or understanding the Ork army. I'm not necessarily saying that you need to play Orks to see what parts need fixing, but clearly from what you've said so far your point of reference on how the army works is sorely lacking. To make it a fair comparison, it'd be like if I say that Destroyers are too good in the Necron army since its the only thing I see being used competitively besides DDA for anti-tank and for 1CP its a no brainer for extermination protocols to be used pretty much every turn, so we should jack up the cost of their gun or base cost, or make the stratagem 2CP. Obviously that would remove the crutch of the Necron army but at the same time also completely neuter one of the few effective units they had left in the army. You'd want to actually make Gauss weaponry on basic infantry useful against vehicles (to be a counterpoint to the anti-infantry of Tesla) and buff up the parts of the Necron army that needs help rather than destroying what little effective units they have left, as if there were actual options for AT they wouldn't be as prevalent.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
@vict you're I'll informed because you don't understand how the army functions and your statements make this pretty clear. I told you above, your suggestions render many of our units useless.

You probably understand the changes that need to happen to Crons because you play them. You obviously don't play Orks so your experience is limited and hence your suggestions are poor.

As an exsmple - you clearly have an issue with da jump. You realise it can be attempted on only one unit a turn and there is a high likelihood that the Weirdboy suffers perils right? You realise the chances of getting the power off drop as you kill more Ork models near the weirdboy right? You understand that with proper screening da jump is not as powerful a tool? Many an evil sunz player has failed the 8 inch rerollable charge by the way, which means they've just given up a boys squad for nothing. Its a risk/reward play which is entirely appropriate for Orks.

Players just tend to remember their negative experiences and perceptions of games. They only remember the times the Ork player makes the charge from da jump and never when they fail. They only remember those times the Ork jumped into their lines and crushed because they did not screen properly. They only remember when the SSAG performs way, waaay above average and not when it does nothing. The SSAG is not a good weapon according to averages, it simply performs a function that Orks otherwise lack (long range, reliable anti armour).

As I stated and maintain, your suggestions make my faction not only significantly weaker but also much more boring to play. Both of which are not really in the spirit of this discussion.

What do you mean by I don't know how Orks function? Buddy, I've been on the receiving end of enough Orks to know exactly how they work and I could play the army if I had to and I had the time and models available to play them, it's 40k, not rocket science. I don't have to see more than 10 top lists that make use of Da Jump and 90 Evil Sunz Boyz or play with it to know that it has to be nerfed in some way. Many people also said the Tesseract Vaults, Castellans or Cultists or would become useless after they got nerfed, none of them did.

You obviously have not played against Orks if you think Da Jumping 30 Evil Sunz for 270 pts is fun or fair. It's only fair within the framework of tournament armies, all of which do different unfair things. While this is perfectly fair in terms of a healthy tournament scene where a lot of factions can do stuff, it's not fair in terms of other tactics being useful and fun to play against.

I do remember when they fail their charges, I had one player just immediately scoop and surrender when he did. What a fun mechanic! Otherwise, I just easily blast the unit to bits and move on with my day. I also remember the times when I properly screen and I just lose a fair amount of things. I could've played with Orks half a dozen times and I'd bet you it wouldn't change my opinion, if you dare me I will go and seek out 3 competitive games and 3 casual games where I do and do not make use of the things I suggested needed to be nerfed and then maybe I'll have an Ork certificate that'll make my input worth something. I haven't even played against the SSAG, I think I played against them 2-3 times since the Mob Up nerf. I do appreciate Orks exploding once in a while, but if they have 2 Weirdboys then they'll usually have at least one with full wounds that can throw out Da Jump without exploding. Part of the problem is also fighting twice, it going off once can end a casual game.

You haven't played with Orks against in a balanced environment after every faction's most busted Tactics, Stratagems and Traits have been nerfed, you have literally no idea how this environment would even look. You have been assuming during this entire thread that no other factions get nerfed and you'll have to play against the currently busted armies you play against in competitive games without the crutches that allow you to compete at a perfectly fair level relative to them currently.

 Grimskul wrote:

Pretty much Englishman said, it's a bit disingenuous to jump into an Ork army oriented thread and make all these changes for the sake of your idea of "balance" when you've already admitted you have no actual experience in playing or understanding the Ork army. I'm not necessarily saying that you need to play Orks to see what parts need fixing, but clearly from what you've said so far your point of reference on how the army works is sorely lacking. To make it a fair comparison, it'd be like if I say that Destroyers are too good in the Necron army since its the only thing I see being used competitively besides DDA for anti-tank and for 1CP its a no brainer for extermination protocols to be used pretty much every turn, so we should jack up the cost of their gun or base cost, or make the stratagem 2CP. Obviously that would remove the crutch of the Necron army but at the same time also completely neuter one of the few effective units they had left in the army. You'd want to actually make Gauss weaponry on basic infantry useful against vehicles (to be a counterpoint to the anti-infantry of Tesla) and buff up the parts of the Necron army that needs help rather than destroying what little effective units they have left, as if there were actual options for AT they wouldn't be as prevalent.

 vict0988 wrote:

What do you mean by I don't know how Orks function? Buddy, I've been on the receiving end of enough Orks to know exactly how they work and I could play the army if I had to and I had the time and models available to play them, it's 40k, not rocket science. I don't have to see more than 10 top lists that make use of Da Jump and 90 Evil Sunz Boyz or play with it to know that it has to be nerfed in some way. Many people also said the Tesseract Vaults, Castellans or Cultists or would become useless after they got nerfed, none of them did.

You obviously have not played against Orks if you think Da Jumping 30 Evil Sunz for 270 pts is fun or fair. It's only fair within the framework of tournament armies, all of which do different unfair things. While this is perfectly fair in terms of a healthy tournament scene where a lot of factions can do stuff, it's not fair in terms of other tactics being useful and fun to play against.

I do remember when they fail their charges, I had one player just immediately scoop and surrender when he did. What a fun mechanic! Otherwise, I just easily blast the unit to bits and move on with my day. I also remember the times when I properly screen and I just lose a fair amount of things. I could've played with Orks half a dozen times and I'd bet you it wouldn't change my opinion, if you dare me I will go and seek out 3 competitive games and 3 casual games where I do and do not make use of the things I suggested needed to be nerfed and then maybe I'll have an Ork certificate that'll make my input worth something. I haven't even played against the SSAG, I think I played against them 2-3 times since the Mob Up nerf. I do appreciate Orks exploding once in a while, but if they have 2 Weirdboys then they'll usually have at least one with full wounds that can throw out Da Jump without exploding. Part of the problem is also fighting twice, it going off once can end a casual game.

You haven't played with Orks against in a balanced environment after every faction's most busted Tactics, Stratagems and Traits have been nerfed, you have literally no idea how this environment would even look. You have been assuming during this entire thread that no other factions get nerfed and you'll have to play against the currently busted armies you play against in competitive games without the crutches that allow you to compete at a perfectly fair level relative to them currently.

This isn't an Ork only thread, go to an Ork forum if you want an echo chamber, making a new thread to discuss the exact same topic, except people that don't play Orks are allowed is not reasonable forum behaviour. I already said I'd like to be educated, but all you do is argue from authority, "I'm an Ork player, you're not, your argument is invalid". There is absolutely nothing wrong with the suggestion of making Extermination Protocols 2CP, it's a suggestion that I have discussed in the past, crutches are bad and should be nerfed, just like the Necron Tesseract Vault was, now I argued that it shouldn't be nerfed unless shoot twice got nerfed and you're perfectly right in saying that nerfing anything Orks get before nerfing a bunch of other stuff first does not make sense. But take the case of the Vault, it being nerfed and other units being buffed opened up many more options to the Necrons than what we previously had of going 2 Vault or 3 Vault. I'm not sure why you cling to your handful of OP tools like lifeboats. I would like to not respond further so please refrain from attacking me, thanks.

See there's your problem right there. You mention that you are including all these nerfs in a hypothetical vaacuum where everyone else has been nerfed to what I assume you would think is R and H levels, which for one thing was not initially implied from your original post nor is it the purpose of this thread. These changes are based on the current meta, and not some sort of hypothetical "utopia" where everyone has been nerfed to what you conceive as balanced. I don't care if you play Orks or not, but from what you've stated you clearly don't have a good grasp of what makes Orks work.

If you want specifics your recommendation to just makes Evil Sunz +3" to advance rolls and 6" for Speed Freeks/Transports is frankly pretty garbage. Transports as is are pretty meh across the Ork army, as it has to do less with their movement and more with their roles being inadequate in what they're supposed to do. Trukks being largely too expensive for what they do after they drop off their cargo (pretty much almost useless in both CC and shooting outside of overwatch soaking, again very meta-dependent for that being useful) with not a large enough transport capacity to make it worth delivering anything besides maybe tankbustas and Flash Gitz, who then cannot benefit from stratagems like Moar Dakka while inside. Meanwhile Battlewagons have a similar issue with not doing much besides being taken with deffrollas and the unit inside being better off being "Da Jumped". Bikerz already move plenty fast as well and the extra advance movement literally does nothing for the new buggies either since they're all fast enough as is. So you've effectively made Evil Sunz a better footslogging army due to the guaranteed bonus 3" advance rather than promote taking vehicles or bikerz, which shows how little thought you put into it. Similarly, Goffs being the deepstrike faction actually makes less sense since alongside Snakebitez they're typically the stereotypical green tide faction, so making them the ideal tellyport unit doesn't make much sense. Also, it shows how little understanding you have in seeing why the -1 AP is crucial for Orks, since it actually promotes us taking more CCW oriented Nobz. It makes Big Choppas actually cut through armour and makes Killsaws and PK's that much more worth actually taking. The AP bonus is obviously useful for boyz, but given how damaged most units of boyz are when they get into combat, it makes it so they do actually have an impact when they do get there.

Bad Moonz have a baseline of reroll ones unlike DA, Necrons and IG because fundamentally an Ork army is dynamic and the majority of our weapons fire on the move or have short range (18" shootas, hello?), it would literally not synergize with the vast majority of Ork units that do shooting outside of Lootas and Mek Gunz, of which the latter cannot benefit from any Kultur. Frankly, BM is only strong because of being able to shoot twice. Take that away and there's little incentive to take it for most units. This is an example of not cross-comparing faction traits without factoring its use within the context of the army itself. Reroll ones to hit for shooting with no movement limitations would be crazy good for Necrons since everyone in your army has 3+ BS or better, with the ability to get 2+ BS with MWBD. Orks OTOH have a 5+ BS so it really only buffs us to basically 4+ BS when you factor in DDD!

I'll only agree that the Killa Klaw is too good, since its practically mandatory in most competitive lists and unfortunately Warbosses just don't really hit hard enough without it. I would remove the re-roll wounds ability and find a way to make regular Klaws better on Warbosses so its less of a no brainer.

Da Jump I find is fine the way it is. If you're relying on the +3 to cast you have a very good chance of perils and killing your Weirdboy and after the initial jump, its unlikely he'll keep that bonus. To make it harder than it already is makes it less useful in late game attempts to use it to contest objectives and I feel that its no different from the other movement based psychic powers that let people move twice. Your enemy can screen and deny you from ideal landing spots with only a few models, so I really think you're overstating how strong it is. It's not my fault Necrons lack efficient screens outside of scarabs.

The last part regarding nerfing the fighting twice and dying twice, WHAT? The fighting twice already got nerfed to the what everyone else's is like at the very end of the combat phase and it costs 3 CP. You're telling me its worth 4CP? You do realize Orks have to weather combat first and the latter stratagem you actually have to die right? How is that not enough of a price already? It's also very hypocritical when Necrons themselves have access to the fight again stratagem, with a very strong CC trait as well.

As far as me "attacking" you, it's again very hypocritical of you to claim you're the victim here when you chose to go and post on my thread while making these big claims that Orks need to be nerfed and not actually giving me enough solid reasons why my buffs were unfair. You came to this thread knowing you had inadequate Ork knowledge, and know you're trying to pull the victim card. Don't dish out what you can't handle and frankly both me and Englishman have done nothing but target your points, not you directly, so I don't get where you come off as someone who's been "attacked" somehow.

 vict0988 wrote:
I feel like Orks need nerfs, it could be done entirely through pts adjustments or it could come in with nerfs to Stratagems, Relics or Kulturs. Personally, I don't think it's very fluffy that Evil Sunz are the deep strike faction. Make it 3" to advance 6" for Speed Freekz and Transports, no movement or charge bonus. I wouldn't touch Goffs for this reason, now they can be the deep strike option which fits pretty well with the fluff since from what I know they are the ones that make most use of this tactic. -1 AP is a tonne of extra damage and makes all the heavy hitting power in your army useless compared to just slapping more Boyz against the problem until it goes away.

Evil Sunz are unintentionally the deep strike faction. The +1 to charge is huge for a faction that requires its units to get in CC to make their points back. On the other hand, Orkz have no real way to deliver boyz besides Deep striking so it kind of makes sense. So if you took away the +1 to charge you have effectively killed the use for Boyz in this game. At the moment, it is not at all hard for remotely competitive lists to mow down 60 boyz a turn. So even if you spam boyz you will effectively lose every game before you can even get into CC range.

Bad Moons is a strictly better version of what most other codexes get, they need to stand still to get the re-roll 1s. Bad Moons being a meta pick I think it'd be totally fair to somehow nerf them. How? I'm not sure. They could have a weakness of some kind, even if it's just a +1 to be hit in melee by other Ork units because they want to bonk them in the head and steal their teef, it doesn't feel fair that Orks get to keep a strictly superior version of a chapter tactic other factions get while that tactic is used in many of their meta lists IMO.

And this makes me think you have no idea what you are talking about and have no idea how utterly crap Orkz are at shooting. Reroll 1s gives you basically nothing. Put it this way, 30 shoota boyz get 60 shots, that is 10 1s which gives you 3.3 extra hits. So you go from 20 hits to 23.3 (Not including dakka because I am lazy but the difference remains the same) Or to put it another way, an increase of 16% to hits on a faction that doesn't get many hits. Also, for badmoons, really only 1 unit was using this trait to great effect and it was Lootas who don't need to move most of the time and they were useful with the badmoons trait because of hte shoot twice strat and less the reroll 1s. Also, unless I am mistaken, most of the SM army gets reroll 1s from characters, hell, prenerf girlyman was giving reroll ALL hits and all wounds. But hey, damn orkz and there ability to reroll 1s for their entire army, of which most is armed with crappier versions of bolters.

The Goffs WL trait you suggested is easily one of the best in the game. No combat steroid Trait does this much, this is leagues better than the current alternative. Lower it to +1 in the first round of combat instead of D3 and you've got something reasonable.

I won't disagree with this one because D3 extra hits in CC would be annoying having to reroll all those dice but realistically goffs would probably benefit from a buff like 2 or even 3 because the fact is nobody takes them because yet again, YOU CAN'T GET THEM INTO CC AS IT IS! which is why everyone takes Evil Sunz, increased movement and charge range.

Da Killa Klaw clearly needs a nerf, it's so stinking good compared to most other weapon relics. Add a -1 to hit or remove the re-roll wound rolls against vehicles, it's already flat 3 damage and you're strength a bajillion or a bajillion and a half, this is just a cherry on top of a mountain of value and I think it should be removed.

Da Killa Klaw is a relic which buffs a crappy Powerklaw from being D3 damage to 3, gives you rerolls to wound and doesn't -1 to hit. that is it. So you want the relic to just do 3damage instead of D3 and reroll wounds and you think people would take it? See, this is your problem, anything remotely good in the codex you think is OP and needs a nerf. If your army falls apart because of 1 warboss with a klaw you have issues, especially with the new rule that says we can't even take the damned thing on a warbike anymore.

Souped Up Shokka needs a nerf as well. Make it do double damage instead of double shots, it makes it do far less mortal wounds and be less good against infantry and bikes and less good against units with an invul, it's still almost double as effective as the base gun and should still be worth using, I even think it's more fitting for the description of the relic. You can reduce the cost of the model if needed, but I don't think 216 wounds from a single model in a single phase makes sense. I'm only reducing it to 180, you still get the chance to one-shot a Knight with my suggestion, it'll just be a lot less likely, on the other hand you will do the majority of your damage whether you get S 11 or 10.

You are really complaining that the maximum potential for this weapon is that high? LMAO, let me know the next time you roll that many 6s in a row! LMAO! To get the bonus damage you need to roll 11+ for strength, to get that much damage you need to roll 2 6s for # of shots. TO get that much damage you need to roll 24 6s to hit in a row AND then you need to roll 24 5s or 6s to get that. The SSAG relic AVERAGES 7 shots for just shy of 3 hits at S7 If you want to double its damage I am fine with that, because you have just lowered its top end damage but increased its average damage output from about 6 or 7 to well over 12-14 Instead of 1 shotting knights, it will be 1 shotting most vehicles.

Yet again the problem with you is that you don't understand the cost of the weapon. the SSAG requires you take advantage of the vigilus campain book which means you are charged CP to take a relic for CP to use in a game which will require it to use CP. It is prohibitively expensive in the extreme, if you weaken it you will eliminate it from the game. Congrats you have killed orkz again.

Da Lucky Stick does very much not need a buff, it's perfectly in line with what most other relics in the game do.

which is why you see it all the time...wait. Rerolling hits and wounds is good for a warboss, except there are significantly better options like the relic klaw or hell the relic armor to give yourself a chance to actually survive CC.

Given the fact you don't need to cause a wound like other factions do to trigger the snakebite Stratagem I don't think it's fair to only pay 2 CP. AFAIK it doesn't help Grots, but the Tau Strat doesn't help Kroot or Vespid either. I'd be totally fine with lowering the number of wounds required to trigger it to 8, it's called monster hunters they should be able to hunt anything with the MONSTER keyword.

Meh, snakebits suck

Da Jump needs to go off on an 8 or 9. It effectively going off on a 4 is too good for what it does, especially if you don't want to nerf the insane charge rate that you get out of deep strike with +1 from Evil Sunz. Your only consideration as to whether you want to re-roll shouldn't be whether you get it off on a 7 or a 12, but whether you get it off at all, a 4 on 2d6 should not be a good roll when this combined with fighting twice can end a match if your opponent hasn't deployed perfectly and built his list to survive the assault. This is a core Ork strategy and isn't very fun to play against, without it Orks are pretty bad from my understanding, so I can't really see Orks not using it in casual either.

It goes off on a 7 because that is what other spells go off on of similar nature. The fact that you think this will end a game is ridiculous. If you lost to an ork army because of a single unit of boyz deep striking you simply suck, I am not going to be nice about it. But if you can't even prevent a common tactic like Da Jumping boyz then it isn't orkz which are the problem it is you. As far as "Isn't fun to play against" yeah, and marching my boyz up the field slowly and getting gunned down en mass by a gunline army like Tau, IG or hell even SM isn't much fun either. Da jumping a single over priced unit of boyz is sometimes the only way to stop a gunline from gutting my entire army turn 1. Sorry, you again demonstrate that you don't understand the ork army and are nursing a severe case of "I lost to orkz!" I know that you are used to steam rolling ork armies because for hte last decade or so we had the worst codex in the game, well sorry, now we have a fighting chance.

Speaking of fighting twice, nerf it, then nerf dying twice and shooting twice as well. All +1 CP or include some restriction in the Stratagem. Dakka Dakka Dakka should only work the next time you shoot, not for the rest of the phase. I wouldn't nerf the Dread Waagh shoot twice Stratagem, you're already paying for the Detachment and I'm already suggesting nerfing the Shokka.

Orkz are already the most CP restrictive army in the game and you think there strats should cost more? I routinely show up to tournaments with a triple battalion and i routinely run out of CP by the end of Turn 2. How about you just stop playing against Ork armies instead of making such ridiculous suggestions like nerfing anything remotely good in our codex?

As death skulls have been named several times, I would like to point out that the "Legends" will hit them pretty badly.

With the phasing of indexs we will loose (on top of the HQ options):
- rokkits on trucks
- mini meks woth kustom mega blastas
- koptas with kustom mega blastas
- koptas with booms

That's about 75% of DSkulls anti-tank. Granted they were anomalies, but those pussed DSkulls to be competitive.

Disregarding current balance issues, which are a wholly different issue, my problems with Kulturs are about how the Clans promote the 'wrong' units to be taken because the benefits do not tie up well with the units that are supposed to be iconic to them. In particular, I think Evil Sunz and Blood Axes have a lot of crossed wires.

Stormboyz and Kommandos are both key units for a Blood Axe warband, but the current rules do very little for either of them. Providing the benefit of cover does almost nothing: Stormboyz go from a 6+ to a 5+, which is pretty worthless in of itself, but are also always going to be within 18" anyway. Kommandos going from a 6+ to a 4+ would be more meaningful, except Throat Slitta encourages them to already be in combat anyway, and again the 18" kills it in practice.
Similarly Falling Back and Charging is nice in principle, but these units are small and extremely fragile, which means Overwatch is a significant hurdle for them. Neither of them have any inherent benefit to Charging beyond what the core rules provide.
Instead, I think the current Blood Axe rules promote vehicles where Cover is both a significant buff and difficult to obtain normally.

On the other hand, Evil Sunz is an extremely powerful Kultur but again buffs the wrong units. Providing extra Movement is most meaningful on those with a low M to begin with, such as Boyz or MegaNobz. It is comparatively less relevant on vehicles, which should be the core of the faction. It also makes Evil Sunz the Kultur the least in-need of Trukks to move their Boyz around, which is a sad irony. We are also in a strange position where the Evil Sunz Kultur is not only irrelevant on Flyboyz, but actually makes them *worse* than not having a Kultur at all by increasing the minimum Move distance.
On the other hand, +1" Charge is a game-warping effect that forms the core of most competitive builds. Evil Sunz are no longer the speedy vehicle faction, they are the Jumping Tellyporting faction.

I would personally prefer:
Blood Axes- +1" to Charge Rolls. Models can Fall Back and Charge/Shoot in the same turn.
Evil Sunz- Vehicles that have Advanced count as in Cover. Infantry can disembark from a Transport after it has moved, provided it did not Advance. Models can Advance and shoot Assault Weapons without penalty.

This allows Blood Axes to take the mantle of 'Mass Deep Strike, Infiltrate and Ambush' which is a more appropriate Clan IMO, retains that playstyle for players who enjoy it, and also provides a massive buff to Blood Axe Stormboyz, Kommandos and DeffKoptas, which is entirely appropriate.
Evil Sunz are also pushed back into vehicles, where Cover actually makes a significant difference. They retain a significant alpha strike ability but one reliant on Trukks, and they regain a key advantage for dogfights.

In an ideal world I would also like to see Snakebites pick up a little bit of shine. Perhaps move some element of Ld-buffing into the core Kultur, especially something that explicitly buffs Gretchin. I'd also like to see Painboyz increase the save to a 5+ because Snakebites seem like the most likely Clan to rely on them.

As I said, not coming from any balance position but I think this is more lore-accurate than the present.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Disregarding current balance issues, which are a wholly different issue, my problems with Kulturs are about how the Clans promote the 'wrong' units to be taken because the benefits do not tie up well with the units that are supposed to be iconic to them. In particular, I think Evil Sunz and Blood Axes have a lot of crossed wires.

Stormboyz and Kommandos are both key units for a Blood Axe warband, but the current rules do very little for either of them. Providing the benefit of cover does almost nothing: Stormboyz go from a 6+ to a 5+, which is pretty worthless in of itself, but are also always going to be within 18" anyway. Kommandos going from a 6+ to a 4+ would be more meaningful, except Throat Slitta encourages them to already be in combat anyway, and again the 18" kills it in practice.
Similarly Falling Back and Charging is nice in principle, but these units are small and extremely fragile, which means Overwatch is a significant hurdle for them. Neither of them have any inherent benefit to Charging beyond what the core rules provide.
Instead, I think the current Blood Axe rules promote vehicles where Cover is both a significant buff and difficult to obtain normally.

On the other hand, Evil Sunz is an extremely powerful Kultur but again buffs the wrong units. Providing extra Movement is most meaningful on those with a low M to begin with, such as Boyz or MegaNobz. It is comparatively less relevant on vehicles, which should be the core of the faction. It also makes Evil Sunz the Kultur the least in-need of Trukks to move their Boyz around, which is a sad irony. We are also in a strange position where the Evil Sunz Kultur is not only irrelevant on Flyboyz, but actually makes them *worse* than not having a Kultur at all by increasing the minimum Move distance.
On the other hand, +1" Charge is a game-warping effect that forms the core of most competitive builds. Evil Sunz are no longer the speedy vehicle faction, they are the Jumping Tellyporting faction.

I would personally prefer:
Blood Axes- +1" to Charge Rolls. Models can Fall Back and Charge/Shoot in the same turn.
Evil Sunz- Vehicles that have Advanced count as in Cover. Infantry can disembark from a Transport after it has moved, provided it did not Advance. Models can Advance and shoot Assault Weapons without penalty.

This allows Blood Axes to take the mantle of 'Mass Deep Strike, Infiltrate and Ambush' which is a more appropriate Clan IMO, retains that playstyle for players who enjoy it, and also provides a massive buff to Blood Axe Stormboyz, Kommandos and DeffKoptas, which is entirely appropriate.
Evil Sunz are also pushed back into vehicles, where Cover actually makes a significant difference. They retain a significant alpha strike ability but one reliant on Trukks, and they regain a key advantage for dogfights.

In an ideal world I would also like to see Snakebites pick up a little bit of shine. Perhaps move some element of Ld-buffing into the core Kultur, especially something that explicitly buffs Gretchin. I'd also like to see Painboyz increase the save to a 5+ because Snakebites seem like the most likely Clan to rely on them.

As I said, not coming from any balance position but I think this is more lore-accurate than the present.

That's an excellent idea, and it allows a mech archetype exist in the Ork codex that goes beyond just bonecrushas.

Those are interesting suggestions, and would make the Evil Sunz into less of a no brainer, but I would retain the +1 movement for vehicles and speed freaks though.

The reason why the Evil Sunz have bonus movement is because its a nod to the "red makes things go faster" meme and to the red paint job upgrade that was present in earlier editions.
In typical GW fashion though, they made it blanket instead of limiting it to units where it makes sense.

I would also limit Snakebite's FNP to infantry and also give them an extra attack on the charge. Either that or +1 movement. Snakebites are supposed to be primitive, which you'd think would imply an emphasis on infantry and melee, but right now you don't really get that feeling. In fact, Snakebites actually want a lot of vehicles in their lists, as FNP is more useful against multi-damage attacks, which are typically used against vehicles.

I like the changes for Evil Sunz and Blood Axes. On the subject of relics in general, there are a lot of non-clan-specific relics that are quite mediocre. Stuff like the dead shiny shoota and the git stoppa shells come to mind. It seems to me like these two relics were meant to be taken together, because the example given for git stoppa shells is that it would increase an AP -1 weapon to an AP -2 weapon, but RAW you can't actually take the git stoppa shells with the dead shiny shoota because it isn't actually, literally a kustom shoota, kombi skorcha or kombi rokkit. It just replaces one.Meaning the git stoppa shells are worse than the dead shiny shoota in pretty much every way and should never be taken by comparison. And it's not as if the dead shiny shoota is much good either. I think the git stoppa shells ought to be able to work with the dead shiny shoota at the very least, and potentially work on other types of guns. I could see this being a really good option for say, Kaptin Badrukk, making Da Rippa a pretty terrifying weapon with damage 3 base and flat 4 damage on supercharge, with ap -4. Badrukk doesnt see a lot of play, but an option like this would be pretty attractive.

ManTube wrote:
I like the changes for Evil Sunz and Blood Axes. On the subject of relics in general, there are a lot of non-clan-specific relics that are quite mediocre. Stuff like the dead shiny shoota and the git stoppa shells come to mind. It seems to me like these two relics were meant to be taken together, because the example given for git stoppa shells is that it would increase an AP -1 weapon to an AP -2 weapon, but RAW you can't actually take the git stoppa shells with the dead shiny shoota because it isn't actually, literally a kustom shoota, kombi skorcha or kombi rokkit. It just replaces one.Meaning the git stoppa shells are worse than the dead shiny shoota in pretty much every way and should never be taken by comparison. And it's not as if the dead shiny shoota is much good either. I think the git stoppa shells ought to be able to work with the dead shiny shoota at the very least, and potentially work on other types of guns. I could see this being a really good option for say, Kaptin Badrukk, making Da Rippa a pretty terrifying weapon with damage 3 base and flat 4 damage on supercharge, with ap -4. Badrukk doesnt see a lot of play, but an option like this would be pretty attractive.

While I agree that the two shoota relic options are pretty terrible, Badrukk wouldn't be able to use it anyways since you can never give relics to named characters. I feel like the dead shiny shoota, at its current profile, should be damage 2 as well as 24" range and allow the bearer to target characters even if they aren't closest target. It gives an actual role for the gun rather than it being a superfluous relic that no one would ever waste a relic slot for. The Gitstoppa shells are a harder thing to fix, and IMO shouldn't be an upgrade to a character's weapon. It should be a once per game ability, that allows the bearer and one friendly Ork Infantry/Biker unit within 6" of them to use their Gitstoppa shells in the shooting phase: all weapons with the kustom shoota, shoota, slugga or big shoota profile in that unit gain +1S, +1AP and +1 Damage. Makes a squad of 30 shoota boyz deep striking in super scary and makes Nob units with kustom shootas dead spooky (for until the index is completely invalidated with the next CA).

Mozzamanx wrote:

I would personally prefer:
Blood Axes- +1" to Charge Rolls. Models can Fall Back and Charge/Shoot in the same turn.
Evil Sunz- Vehicles that have Advanced count as in Cover. Infantry can disembark from a Transport after it has moved, provided it did not Advance. Models can Advance and shoot Assault Weapons without penalty.

I'm actually really digging this. Not very powerful, but promotes lore-friendly units.