Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
And, considering that more than 50% of Chapters comes from Ultramarines (or, at least, I remember that from Index Astartes whee they said that more than half of the newly founded chapters derive from Ultramarines alone - but the exact number may be slightly different) and that Ultramarines have their own Codex, the real number should be 4/8.
So, we have a "standard" chapter (UM), and then half are special, half aren't. Much more relevant than you think.
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
The writers just wrote what they wanted & GW just made models for those. Players liked the uniqueness and wanted more, but rather than helping the other legions buy giving them a special unit, GW just focused on the jerkyboys.
We are now at the point where having them all spread out in their own just increases issues when compared to the regular codex chapters.
A Deathwing termie is only slightly different to any other terminator(gameplay wise). The main difference comes from lore/fluff. so why couldnt they share the same base codex rules and then have a supplemental one with all of the fluff/lore that makes them sooooo special? Kinda like they're doing with the rest of the Astartes.
I mean are people that dense that they cant understand that marines are marines no matter how much they try to differentiate them, they're still marines, right?
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
Removed - Rule #1 please
BrianDavion wrote: he doesn't care. if GW ditches the varient marine armies that means GW will magicly give other "more worthy" armies new stuff. nevermind that the example of Primaris Marines suggests this wouldn't be the case. AT ALL
They shouldn;t Ditch them just not focuss exclusively on them, or pretend stuff is "unique" - or is that too hard of a concerpt for you. There are no fluff changes needed.
Anyone think i am wrong? Its another but related argument - having Forgeworld making almost exclusively marines and then having GW also making two entire marine ranges - yeah that apparently to people like you means that no resources are dedicated to them as GW has infinite time and resources? Thats just stupid
GW brings out a new Codex and new marine Models and immediatly its "BUT WHERE ARE THE DARK ANGELS, BLOOD ANGELS AND WOLVES versions - we want all the special rules too - oh and all our "unique Units" and special rules as well.
Its no secret I despise the flanderisation of my Wolves and Angels armies
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/08/26 06:00:52
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
How on earth did you get that from what I said?
The idea I support is to have a base Codex, that includes most or possibly all of the Space Marine units. From there, you have limited access to special units, possibly coming with restrictions on what can be selected together, and stuff like the "Make Your Own Chapter Tactic", so that way you can represent the chapters that get tons of attention, but ALSO represent those that don't.
Not removing any units.
Not removing any fluff.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
How on earth did you get that from what I said?
The idea I support is to have a base Codex, that includes most or possibly all of the Space Marine units. From there, you have limited access to special units, possibly coming with restrictions on what can be selected together, and stuff like the "Make Your Own Chapter Tactic", so that way you can represent the chapters that get tons of attention, but ALSO represent those that don't.
Not removing any units.
Not removing any fluff.
Sounds good to me = but apparently its just too hard a concept too grasp that people don't loose stuff, the paranoia is so prevelant about this issue......
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
How on earth did you get that from what I said?
The idea I support is to have a base Codex, that includes most or possibly all of the Space Marine units. From there, you have limited access to special units, possibly coming with restrictions on what can be selected together, and stuff like the "Make Your Own Chapter Tactic", so that way you can represent the chapters that get tons of attention, but ALSO represent those that don't.
Not removing any units.
Not removing any fluff.
Sounds good to me = but apparently its just too hard a concept too grasp that people don't loose stuff, the paranoia is so prevelant about this issue......
lol no, they are 4 on 1000.
Being first founding doesn't make a chapter extra special. It just means that they have 10 000 years of history as opposed to having 9 000 years of history, which is just a detail. The “First founding fetish” is quite unsufferable
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Firstly, I don't write 'garbage'. Dislike or disagree with me, just don't insult me because of it.
Secondly - to generalise all the unique units so everyone has the same options means you do have to make some changes to the lore, and as has been stated by others: removing the fact that some chapters have options that others do not in favour of giving everyone the same options would be removing flavour, lore, themes and stories from those chapters. No matter how you spin it, you have to make some changes to accommodate generic 'Deathwing', or generic 'Wulfen', especially since they're no both Ultramarine units too under your proposals.
Thirdly, I have answered the OP post a few times now, if you can't grasp that people like there being differences between the loyalist marine factions then this is just going to become an echo chamber where you shout down someone that disagrees with you even though many of them have presented you various reasons for why the unique units should stay as they are.
And fourthly I guess I'm done. I've tried presenting a counterpoint to you over the last few days. It's obvious you wont change my mind, and also that you wont accept said dissenting opinion to your proposal.
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
Removed - Rule #1 please
BrianDavion wrote: he doesn't care. if GW ditches the varient marine armies that means GW will magicly give other "more worthy" armies new stuff. nevermind that the example of Primaris Marines suggests this wouldn't be the case. AT ALL
They shouldn;t Ditch them just not focuss exclusively on them, or pretend stuff is "unique" - or is that too hard of a concerpt for you. There are no fluff changes needed.
Anyone think i am wrong? Its another but related argument - having Forgeworld making almost exclusively marines and then having GW also making two entire marine ranges - yeah that apparently to people like you means that no resources are dedicated to them as GW has infinite time and resources? Thats just stupid
GW brings out a new Codex and new marine Models and immediatly its "BUT WHERE ARE THE DARK ANGELS, BLOOD ANGELS AND WOLVES versions - we want all the special rules too - oh and all our "unique Units" and special rules as well.
Its no secret I despise the flanderisation of my Wolves and Angels armies
I've read your original post a few times, and I think that you are wrong. Your OP would be stronger if it didn't have a strawmen (like your all caps above where you invent your opponent's arguments).
The Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are distinct armies from the Space Marines in this edition and pretty much every edition before. 3rd Edition had them as smaller codex supplements, but otherwise they've stood on their own. You might not like their aesthetic. That's OK. Don't play them. Other people do like them and indeed play them. You might want to build a bridge and get over it.
What do you want? Do you want access to the Deathwing or do you just want them squatted? Same question for the other unique units. Be clear in your argument, and be prepared for people to disagree with you.
The Dark Angels need only a few SKU to be a distinct army. Those few boxes from a mature army with mature lore/fluff and design are not keeping GW from making a whole new army or adding some wonder unit to another one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/26 06:01:04
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
BroodSpawn wrote: No matter how you spin it, you have to make some changes to accommodate generic 'Deathwing', or generic 'Wulfen', especially since they're no both Ultramarine units too under your proposals.
No, not really. Deathwing is terminators, Ultra have plenty of them. Wulfen are “bestial marines”, Ultramarines don't have them (don't give them the corresponding trait that open this option) but many other chapters do, like for instance the Black Dragons.
And it's not the first time we mention it.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Sounds good to me = but apparently its just too hard a concept too grasp that people don't loose stuff, the paranoia is so prevelant about this issue......
But isn't it kind of a hard to trust that GW will do a supplment for your codex, that the supplement is going to be good and as a separate matter no one wants to buy their codex twice, specialy when you already have to buy CAs each year, want it or not.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Being first founding means that you have successor chapters in an unknown number.
So, whatever your headcanon is, there aren't "4 out of 1000".
They are around 25% of the entire existing Marine, give or take.
The "I don't bother to read properly because I known I'm right" fetish is definitely insufferable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/26 21:20:18
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
BroodSpawn wrote: But to get to that level of choice you have to water down and make uniform all forms of chapter unique unit so they're generic enough for everyone. There would be no Deathwing Knights as they'd be just a different colour of a melee terminator unit used by everyone else. At that point you're still removing flavour even if you say 'but they still exist they're now just a variant of this basic thing now instead of being uniquely interesting '
Dark Angel special rules:
All models in terminator armor gain the DEATHWING and INNER CIRCLE keywords
Models in DEATHWING TERMINATOR SQUAD may exchange its storm bolter and power fist for two lightning claws or Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Alternatively, the entire unit may exchange their weapons for Mace of Absolution and Storm Shield and gain the DEATHWING KNIGHT keyword. Terminator sergeants in DEATHWING KNIGHT units are equipped with Flail of the Unforgiven and Stormshield.
done.
Seems legit - what is lost?
+1 attack which almost doubles the offensive capability of the unit, and the watcher in the dark which is a very unique DA bit of fluff that gives them some solid psychic defense.
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
Cybtroll wrote: Being first founding means that you have successor chapters in an unknown number.
So, whatever your headcanon is, there aren't "4 out of 1000".
They are around 25% of the entire existing Marine, give or take.
The "I don't bother to read properly because I known I'm right" fetish is definitely insufferable.
I find it doubtful that's the case. 60% of the sucessor chapters out there are Ultramarine.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
How on earth did you get that from what I said?
The idea I support is to have a base Codex, that includes most or possibly all of the Space Marine units. From there, you have limited access to special units, possibly coming with restrictions on what can be selected together, and stuff like the "Make Your Own Chapter Tactic", so that way you can represent the chapters that get tons of attention, but ALSO represent those that don't.
Not removing any units.
Not removing any fluff.
When a quarter to a third of the units are specialty, then it makes more sense to keep a separate codex.
Sounds good to me = but apparently its just too hard a concept too grasp that people don't loose stuff, the paranoia is so prevelant about this issue......
But isn't it kind of a hard to trust that GW will do a supplment for your codex, that the supplement is going to be good and as a separate matter no one wants to buy their codex twice, specialy when you already have to buy CAs each year, want it or not.
Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/27 04:23:20
JNAProductions wrote: But why do 4 Chapters get detailed units and differences, while 996 don't?
Whereas if you had a generic Space Marine codex and the ability to pick bonuses and penalties (or extra units and restrictions) from the whole list, you could represent a lot more chapters.
I do understand it'd make balancing harder, but honestly, given the fact that balance is apparently an 82nd concern for GW instead of #1 or #2 or something like that, they might as well let you have lots of customization.
It is difference are you codex chapter or not. If normal SM codex would got all units, it would be cost more money. But there should be more customization. Maybe no named characters, that way you could do successors more freely. If there would be one basic primarch base unit with options, you could play with returned Vulkan (or Lion is all Space marines would be in one book).
Even Space marine codex have restrictions based which chapter you choose. That brings unbalance. Supplements like Ultramarines would break balance too.But players like supplements which give more power and GW likes to sell supplements.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers.
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
How on earth did you get that from what I said?
The idea I support is to have a base Codex, that includes most or possibly all of the Space Marine units. From there, you have limited access to special units, possibly coming with restrictions on what can be selected together, and stuff like the "Make Your Own Chapter Tactic", so that way you can represent the chapters that get tons of attention, but ALSO represent those that don't.
Not removing any units.
Not removing any fluff.
When a quarter to a third of the units are specialty, then it makes more sense to keep a separate codex.
Sounds good to me = but apparently its just too hard a concept too grasp that people don't loose stuff, the paranoia is so prevelant about this issue......
But isn't it kind of a hard to trust that GW will do a supplment for your codex, that the supplement is going to be good and as a separate matter no one wants to buy their codex twice, specialy when you already have to buy CAs each year, want it or not.
Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
It. Doesn't. Need. To. Be. Two. Books.
Also those "specialty units" aren't really a specialty. I proved as such and you just refuse to accept it because "muh snowflake rules" instead of realizing that the balance (and therefore how your fluff plays out) would be a LOT better.
If anything, Black Templars and Iron Hands are actually divergent compared to Blood Angels (who really just have Death Company as different in their Chapter organization) and Dark Angels (where everyone in 1st Company can get a Terminator suit).
It isn't justified so don't pretend it is.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I think that if GW could split it in to 3 or more books they would. Look at vigilus, all the people that bought those book must now feel dumb, that now to use the rules they need to buy the new sm codex and supplement.
In fact, if GW could they would probably be willing to sell books with just one unit rules inside. heck they could do it for a weapon upgrade to a unit. And people would be buying them, because they need rules to legaly play, and if something makes a unit good people are going to be buy it no matter how it looks.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
Removed - Rule #1 please
BrianDavion wrote: he doesn't care. if GW ditches the varient marine armies that means GW will magicly give other "more worthy" armies new stuff. nevermind that the example of Primaris Marines suggests this wouldn't be the case. AT ALL
They shouldn;t Ditch them just not focuss exclusively on them, or pretend stuff is "unique" - or is that too hard of a concerpt for you. There are no fluff changes needed.
Anyone think i am wrong? Its another but related argument - having Forgeworld making almost exclusively marines and then having GW also making two entire marine ranges - yeah that apparently to people like you means that no resources are dedicated to them as GW has infinite time and resources? Thats just stupid
GW brings out a new Codex and new marine Models and immediatly its "BUT WHERE ARE THE DARK ANGELS, BLOOD ANGELS AND WOLVES versions - we want all the special rules too - oh and all our "unique Units" and special rules as well.
Its no secret I despise the flanderisation of my Wolves and Angels armies
I've read your original post a few times, and I think that you are wrong. Your OP would be stronger if it didn't have a strawmen (like your all caps above where you invent your opponent's arguments).
The Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are distinct armies from the Space Marines in this edition and pretty much every edition before. 3rd Edition had them as smaller codex supplements, but otherwise they've stood on their own. You might not like their aesthetic. That's OK. Don't play them. Other people do like them and indeed play them. You might want to build a bridge and get over it.
What do you want? Do you want access to the Deathwing or do you just want them squatted? Same question for the other unique units. Be clear in your argument, and be prepared for people to disagree with you.
The Dark Angels need only a few SKU to be a distinct army. Those few boxes from a mature army with mature lore/fluff and design are not keeping GW from making a whole new army or adding some wonder unit to another one.
Right so you read my OP (aledgedly) and MISSED that I have Wolves and Angels armies....................seriously its in the first line!
How many times - No squatting- you just have it as an option, potentially unlocked by Chapter tactics depending on how actually "unique" the units is.
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Cybtroll wrote: Being first founding means that you have successor chapters in an unknown number.
And those successors quite likely aren't using the same codex. Many chapters don't even know their origins. So…
Mmmpi wrote: Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
Codex Marines have to buy two books if they want to use a chapter supplement too atm so not really an argument. If you want to play marines you need one book. If you want to play a specific chapter, you buy two books, one on marines and one on the specificity of your chapter.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2019/08/27 21:09:57
Subject: Re:"Unique" Units of the Wolves and Angels
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/27 21:13:34
Subject: Re:"Unique" Units of the Wolves and Angels
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
This is not why we want consolidation and we have been over this.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/27 21:14:44
Subject: Re:"Unique" Units of the Wolves and Angels
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
Granted gw does not make other factions more desirable in any way shape or form.
Their focus cripples armies favour, said army will then get less sold which then leads to even less support.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/27 21:15:59
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/08/27 21:31:31
Subject: Re:"Unique" Units of the Wolves and Angels
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
"SIGH" I don't have one just faction - I collect pretty much ALL of them including the Wolves and Angels - AS I said about a million fething times.
Still ignoring the question - does GW have infinite resources or does, in fact, making one thing mean you don't do another?????????
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
How on earth did you get that from what I said?
The idea I support is to have a base Codex, that includes most or possibly all of the Space Marine units. From there, you have limited access to special units, possibly coming with restrictions on what can be selected together, and stuff like the "Make Your Own Chapter Tactic", so that way you can represent the chapters that get tons of attention, but ALSO represent those that don't.
Not removing any units.
Not removing any fluff.
When a quarter to a third of the units are specialty, then it makes more sense to keep a separate codex.
Sounds good to me = but apparently its just too hard a concept too grasp that people don't loose stuff, the paranoia is so prevelant about this issue......
But isn't it kind of a hard to trust that GW will do a supplment for your codex, that the supplement is going to be good and as a separate matter no one wants to buy their codex twice, specialy when you already have to buy CAs each year, want it or not.
Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
It. Doesn't. Need. To. Be. Two. Books.
Also those "specialty units" aren't really a specialty. I proved as such and you just refuse to accept it because "muh snowflake rules" instead of realizing that the balance (and therefore how your fluff plays out) would be a LOT better.
If anything, Black Templars and Iron Hands are actually divergent compared to Blood Angels (who really just have Death Company as different in their Chapter organization) and Dark Angels (where everyone in 1st Company can get a Terminator suit).
It isn't justified so don't pretend it is.
There are already far too many differences to be one book, and you're one of the only people saying one book anyway. Almost everyone else is shouting 'supplemental'.
You really didn't prove anything other than that you think they aren't special. Sorry Cupcake.
So yeah, it is justified, no matter how much you pretend.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: I think that if GW could split it in to 3 or more books they would. Look at vigilus, all the people that bought those book must now feel dumb, that now to use the rules they need to buy the new sm codex and supplement.
In fact, if GW could they would probably be willing to sell books with just one unit rules inside. heck they could do it for a weapon upgrade to a unit. And people would be buying them, because they need rules to legaly play, and if something makes a unit good people are going to be buy it no matter how it looks.
Mmmpi wrote: Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
Codex Marines have to buy two books if they want to use a chapter supplement too atm so not really an argument. If you want to play marines you need one book. If you want to play a specific chapter, you buy two books, one on marines and one on the specificity of your chapter.
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
This is not why we want consolidation and we have been over this.
No, you want to field all of the broken units in one army, despite the fact that you can already do that.
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
"SIGH" I don't have one just faction - I collect pretty much ALL of them including the Wolves and Angels - AS I said about a million fething times.
Still ignoring the question - does GW have infinite resources or does, in fact, making one thing mean you don't do another?????????
You aren't everyone else. There are plenty of others who have argued this.
And he answered your question.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/27 22:45:14
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
How on earth did you get that from what I said?
The idea I support is to have a base Codex, that includes most or possibly all of the Space Marine units. From there, you have limited access to special units, possibly coming with restrictions on what can be selected together, and stuff like the "Make Your Own Chapter Tactic", so that way you can represent the chapters that get tons of attention, but ALSO represent those that don't.
Not removing any units.
Not removing any fluff.
When a quarter to a third of the units are specialty, then it makes more sense to keep a separate codex.
Sounds good to me = but apparently its just too hard a concept too grasp that people don't loose stuff, the paranoia is so prevelant about this issue......
But isn't it kind of a hard to trust that GW will do a supplment for your codex, that the supplement is going to be good and as a separate matter no one wants to buy their codex twice, specialy when you already have to buy CAs each year, want it or not.
Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
It. Doesn't. Need. To. Be. Two. Books.
Also those "specialty units" aren't really a specialty. I proved as such and you just refuse to accept it because "muh snowflake rules" instead of realizing that the balance (and therefore how your fluff plays out) would be a LOT better.
If anything, Black Templars and Iron Hands are actually divergent compared to Blood Angels (who really just have Death Company as different in their Chapter organization) and Dark Angels (where everyone in 1st Company can get a Terminator suit).
It isn't justified so don't pretend it is.
There are already far too many differences to be one book, and you're one of the only people saying one book anyway. Almost everyone else is shouting 'supplemental'.
You really didn't prove anything other than that you think they aren't special. Sorry Cupcake.
So yeah, it is justified, no matter how much you pretend.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: I think that if GW could split it in to 3 or more books they would. Look at vigilus, all the people that bought those book must now feel dumb, that now to use the rules they need to buy the new sm codex and supplement.
In fact, if GW could they would probably be willing to sell books with just one unit rules inside. heck they could do it for a weapon upgrade to a unit. And people would be buying them, because they need rules to legaly play, and if something makes a unit good people are going to be buy it no matter how it looks.
Mmmpi wrote: Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
Codex Marines have to buy two books if they want to use a chapter supplement too atm so not really an argument. If you want to play marines you need one book. If you want to play a specific chapter, you buy two books, one on marines and one on the specificity of your chapter.
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
This is not why we want consolidation and we have been over this.
No, you want to field all of the broken units in one army, despite the fact that you can already do that.
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
"SIGH" I don't have one just faction - I collect pretty much ALL of them including the Wolves and Angels - AS I said about a million fething times.
Still ignoring the question - does GW have infinite resources or does, in fact, making one thing mean you don't do another?????????
You aren't everyone else. There are plenty of others who have argued this.
And he answered your question.
"My Terminators can take a SS in their shooting squad" isn't a difference hahahahahaha! Neither is "my apothecaries look different".
Yeah you need to get over it. The circlejerk for the Angels codices is unbelievable, you proving as much thinking they're even close to different.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
It would be entirely possible to fold the Wolves and DA/BA stuff into the main SM codex and still get a lower page count than books for many other game systems (looking at the old FFGRPG books, those were 200-300 page books that retailed for what a codex book a third the size cost now). Ive done it as a project a couple of times in previous editons, it's by no means hard to do, especially when many units are simple equipment or rule swaps and when two thirds of the fluff is communal copypasta. With the new keyword system, it'd probably be even easier.
However, GW basically uses these as business cycle tools, keeping the flagship line of the most common high profile products bumped through an entire edition cycle. They're separate because GW wants those marketing/release windows, not because they really need to be.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
BroodSpawn wrote: The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.
How is that even a question?
How on earth did you get that from what I said?
The idea I support is to have a base Codex, that includes most or possibly all of the Space Marine units. From there, you have limited access to special units, possibly coming with restrictions on what can be selected together, and stuff like the "Make Your Own Chapter Tactic", so that way you can represent the chapters that get tons of attention, but ALSO represent those that don't.
Not removing any units.
Not removing any fluff.
When a quarter to a third of the units are specialty, then it makes more sense to keep a separate codex.
Sounds good to me = but apparently its just too hard a concept too grasp that people don't loose stuff, the paranoia is so prevelant about this issue......
But isn't it kind of a hard to trust that GW will do a supplment for your codex, that the supplement is going to be good and as a separate matter no one wants to buy their codex twice, specialy when you already have to buy CAs each year, want it or not.
Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
It. Doesn't. Need. To. Be. Two. Books.
Also those "specialty units" aren't really a specialty. I proved as such and you just refuse to accept it because "muh snowflake rules" instead of realizing that the balance (and therefore how your fluff plays out) would be a LOT better.
If anything, Black Templars and Iron Hands are actually divergent compared to Blood Angels (who really just have Death Company as different in their Chapter organization) and Dark Angels (where everyone in 1st Company can get a Terminator suit).
It isn't justified so don't pretend it is.
There are already far too many differences to be one book, and you're one of the only people saying one book anyway. Almost everyone else is shouting 'supplemental'.
You really didn't prove anything other than that you think they aren't special. Sorry Cupcake.
So yeah, it is justified, no matter how much you pretend.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: I think that if GW could split it in to 3 or more books they would. Look at vigilus, all the people that bought those book must now feel dumb, that now to use the rules they need to buy the new sm codex and supplement.
In fact, if GW could they would probably be willing to sell books with just one unit rules inside. heck they could do it for a weapon upgrade to a unit. And people would be buying them, because they need rules to legaly play, and if something makes a unit good people are going to be buy it no matter how it looks.
Mmmpi wrote: Not to mention, why should DA/BA/SW players have to buy two books, just because the core marines aren't 'special snowflake' enough?
Codex Marines have to buy two books if they want to use a chapter supplement too atm so not really an argument. If you want to play marines you need one book. If you want to play a specific chapter, you buy two books, one on marines and one on the specificity of your chapter.
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
This is not why we want consolidation and we have been over this.
No, you want to field all of the broken units in one army, despite the fact that you can already do that.
Why do people believe GW has infinite resources - if you make one thing - you are not making another. Again how am I wrong here.
we don't we just contest your idea that somehow if GW squatted the various marine chapters (and the existance of 1k sons and death guard as their own codex suggests GW isn't going to be reducing the number of armies out there anytime soon) they'd suddenly pay more attention to YOUR faction. they'd just ohh.. put out the space wolves supplement instead of the space wolves codex
"SIGH" I don't have one just faction - I collect pretty much ALL of them including the Wolves and Angels - AS I said about a million fething times.
Still ignoring the question - does GW have infinite resources or does, in fact, making one thing mean you don't do another?????????
You aren't everyone else. There are plenty of others who have argued this.
And he answered your question.
"My Terminators can take a SS in their shooting squad" isn't a difference hahahahahaha! Neither is "my apothecaries look different".
Yeah you need to get over it. The circlejerk for the Angels codices is unbelievable, you proving as much thinking they're even close to different.
That is literally a difference. And considering those 'different looking apothicaries' have added rules (which is why they're HQ instead of Elites), they aren't the same unit either.
So you need to get over it. The circle jerk of pushing your opinion as fact is sadly all too common, you're providing no thinking at all.
More of a “weird rule artifact” than a difference.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/27 23:03:32
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Thats just stupid
11,100 pts, 
