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Happy to see custom tactics for successors without representation.
While not perfect, been considering some tactics for Relictors.
-knowledge is power
-Master artisans
Seem like good representation.(preferred enemy chaos was left out because it’s more fluffy than practical. And all chapters really should just get preferred enemy as a freebie anyways).
What do you guys think?

These new books are getting pretty swollen with overly worded rules, but I think the successor super-doctrine thing is pretty clearly cut once you chew through the paragraphs a few times like a dumb flow chart.

1: Super-doctrine: Units with the <First Founding> or <Successor> chapter get it.

2: If your chapter is NOT a First Founding chapter, then it is a Successor chapter.

3: All Successor chapters have one of the First Founding chapters as a parent chapter. If it's a known successor chapter, it must have it's fluffy parent. If it's unknown, it can pick. There's no reason not to pick a parent chapter.

4: If your Successor chapter has the "Primarch's Successor" chapter tactic, then it must have the same parent chapter as it's chapter tactic (so you cant have Iron Hand tactics, as an Ultramarine successor.)

So yeah... its waaaay overly complicated for what it needs to be, but it does effectively say that any successor chapters use their parent chapter's supplement.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.

I wouldn't say "catastrophic". You literally lose the same number on guys as before. And the plasma guys did get 4ppm cheaper even with the extra wound.
So while is sucks to lose a guy to a 1, you don't lose any more models just because they have 3Ws now.

Having said that, there is something to say for the Assault bolters now that they are AP2 with the Tactical Doctrine active. Someone should do the math on all 3 weapon options (AP2 bolters vs AP4 standard plasma vs AP4 supercharged plasma).
I personally prefer the plasma because of the versatility, but the fact that you can get 4 Bolter Inceptors for the cost of 3 Plasma makes me tempted to swap

-

Vs non overcharged you are looking at 24 shots compared to 12. Vs anything but t7 the bolters will out perform I think just running the numbers in my head. Overcharged they outperform vs anything without a 4++ but they are also slaying a model on any 1 or 2 or 3 depending on -1 to hits. The additional 3 wounds in the unit is a big deal though. Plus an additional chance at a mortal wound a on 6 if you decide to charge. No reason not to charge chaff being t5 with a 3+ and each dude is putting out 3 attacks at least and you fly. They can also run as imperial fist and get even more bonus with ignore cover and 6s generating additional hits. Plasma probably better off running iron hands.

 McGibs wrote:
These new books are getting pretty swollen with overly worded rules, but I think the successor super-doctrine thing is pretty clearly cut once you chew through the paragraphs a few times like a dumb flow chart.

1: Super-doctrine: Units with the <First Founding> or <Successor> chapter get it.

2: If your chapter is NOT a First Founding chapter, then it is a Successor chapter.

3: All Successor chapters have one of the First Founding chapters as a parent chapter. If it's a known successor chapter, it must have it's fluffy parent. If it's unknown, it can pick. There's no reason not to pick a parent chapter.

4: If your Successor chapter has the "Primarch's Successor" chapter tactic, then it must have the same parent chapter as it's chapter tactic (so you cant have Iron Hand tactics, as an Ultramarine successor.)

So yeah... its waaaay overly complicated for what it needs to be, but it does effectively say that any successor chapters use their parent chapter's supplement.

Interesting, I guess when the time comes Relictors get to pick DA or UM

So I've been losing alot with my primaris only ultramarines. Normally okay with that but now I kind of want to try winning.

What's our ideal builds and game plans now for Primaris at about 1500 and 2000 points?

You need to be specific on how strictly Primaris you are.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.

You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.

I just read suplement - succesor chapter is just first founding chapter psinted in different colour. So there is no way to give ultramarines extra +3" range. But iirc we can give our custom chapter 2 succesor traits (eg. Stelwart and duelist) and let be them succesors of ultramarines.

 Mr.T wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.

You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.

I just read suplement - succesor chapter is just first founding chapter psinted in different colour. So there is no way to give ultramarines extra +3" range.

I just read it too and you're wrong. there's also good reason to give sucessor chapters a bit of flex, the raptors are a known ravenguard chapter but are pretty blatently a canidate for the marksmen CT.

IMHO proably the most powerful chapter of marine codex 8.5 is the blood ravens."yeah we can choose to be a sucessor to any chapter and have our own unique stratigium. cause feth you"

 Mr.T wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.

You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.

I just read suplement - succesor chapter is just first founding chapter psinted in different colour. So there is no way to give ultramarines extra +3" range.

I agree. It's worded pretty complicated, but in the supplement, you only get the First Founding stuff if you chose Ultramarines through Inheritors of the Primarch.


Edit: Rule snippet in question

If the successor Chapter you have chosen
is one established in the background of our
publications, its founding Chapter will often be
known (for example, the Mortifactors Chapter
is a known successor of the Ultramarines). If
the successor Chapter you have chosen does
not have a known founding Chapter but has
the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic,
and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First
Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is
a successor of that First Founding Chapter.
Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that
best fits your successor Chapter’s character.

If your Chapter is a successor of the
Ultramarines, the following rules apply:

We REALLY need an Errata on that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.

I wouldn't say "catastrophic". You literally lose the same number on guys as before. And the plasma guys did get 4ppm cheaper even with the extra wound.
So while is sucks to lose a guy to a 1, you don't lose any more models just because they have 3Ws now.

Having said that, there is something to say for the Assault bolters now that they are AP2 with the Tactical Doctrine active. Someone should do the math on all 3 weapon options (AP2 bolters vs AP4 standard plasma vs AP4 supercharged plasma).
I personally prefer the plasma because of the versatility, but the fact that you can get 4 Bolter Inceptors for the cost of 3 Plasma makes me tempted to swap

-

Vs non overcharged you are looking at 24 shots compared to 12. Vs anything but t7 the bolters will out perform I think just running the numbers in my head. Overcharged they outperform vs anything without a 4++ but they are also slaying a model on any 1 or 2 or 3 depending on -1 to hits. The additional 3 wounds in the unit is a big deal though. Plus an additional chance at a mortal wound a on 6 if you decide to charge. No reason not to charge chaff being t5 with a 3+ and each dude is putting out 3 attacks at least and you fly. They can also run as imperial fist and get even more bonus with ignore cover and 6s generating additional hits. Plasma probably better off running iron hands.

Suppressors are an interesting alternative to plasma inceptors. At 30ppm they look like a really solid option for armies like raven guard and decent for anyone else. They hand out nearly the same damage per point as plasma inceptors without the risk of blowing up, though they sacrifice accuracy on the move for (really great) range.

I’ve been drawing up listsamd I’m findong these guys take on the “devastator” role in my army, while my actual heavy support choices are getting filled with stuff like eliminators and maybe a TFC.

I’d like to see some maths on eliminators. Specially, bolt snipers firing Mortis rounds at tough things, compared to las fusils. I’ve got a feeling the Mortis rounds could be as good or better, for their cost, against things like knights, perhaps especially when the sergeant gives the unit +1 to hit and wound.

Look at the stratagen "Fall back and re-engage". It is from UM supplement and have something like that: "(this Stratagem costs 1 CP if that unit has the Codex Discipline Chapter Tactic, otherwise it costs 2 CP).". So it shows that You can use UM stuff using successor chapter not having UM chapter tactics


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 Mr.T wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.

You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.

It says that if You have I

I just read suplement - succesor chapter is just first founding chapter psinted in different colour. So there is no way to give ultramarines extra +3" range.

I agree. It's worded pretty complicated, but in the supplement, you only get the First Founding stuff if you chose Ultramarines through Inheritors of the Primarch.


Edit: Rule snippet in question

If the successor Chapter you have chosen
is one established in the background of our
publications, its founding Chapter will often be
known (for example, the Mortifactors Chapter
is a known successor of the Ultramarines). If
the successor Chapter you have chosen does
not have a known founding Chapter but has
the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic,
and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First
Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is
a successor of that First Founding Chapter.
Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that
best fits your successor Chapter’s character.

If your Chapter is a successor of the
Ultramarines, the following rules apply:

It says that if You chokse Inheritors you cannot be successor chapter of different FFC than the one you get CT from.

You are free to choose two SCT and say Your parents are UM and use their stuff from supplement

Okay, that Stratagem convinced me.

The rule is still worded extremely confusing.

I don't suppose anyone with access to the codex can confirm whether the new Terminator Ancient has exactly the same banner rules as the others please? I'm expecting it to be the same, but i've not seen it mentioned anywhere.

Kdash wrote:
I don't suppose anyone with access to the codex can confirm whether the new Terminator Ancient has exactly the same banner rules as the others please? I'm expecting it to be the same, but i've not seen it mentioned anywhere.

Yeah, it's the same with +1Ld, 6" range and 4+

So... what successor CT would be best for UM successor chapter? I was thinking about reroll ones to hit with bolt weapon and benefit of cover while more than one feet. I only collect primaris stuff so it would nicely work with vanguard chars and eliminators as they have camo cloaks and troops

So, with the points drops, my Minotaurs Primaris force gained a couple of models. However, I'm currently running them as Crimson Fists (to take advantage of the Vigilus detatchment and the anti horde capability skyrocket with them)

My current army is thus:

Captain in Gravis
Primaris Lieutenant with power sword
Primaris Chaplain

5 MSU intercessors
6 man intercessor squad, power sword sarge

Primaris ancient
Primaris Apothacary
6 man aggressor squad with flamestorm

3 MSU inceptors with bolters

3 MSU hellblasters with Incinerators

That's 2000pts on the dot, and 15CP for being a Brigade. I'm taking them to a tournament in September which gives 1CP for on time list entry, so what can I add, relic/warlord trait wise to really power up this force? I know "chapter master" is a gimme for 2CP, so what can I do with the rest of the CP/models I have?

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I don't suppose anyone with access to the codex can confirm whether the new Terminator Ancient has exactly the same banner rules as the others please? I'm expecting it to be the same, but i've not seen it mentioned anywhere.

Yeah, it's the same with +1Ld, 6" range and 4+

Thanks!

Played a game vs my mate's guard last night.

My list:
Successor Traits <Bolter Fussilades, Master Artisans>

Battalion
Lieutenant (Primarchs Wrath, Power Sword) (1cp Master of strategy) 67
Primaris Lieutenant (Power Sword, Master Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle) - WL 73
10 Incessors (2x Aux-grenade, Sergeant (Power Sword) 174
10 Scout Squad 110
5 Scout Squad (Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher) 98
5 Scout Squad (Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher) 98
3 Inceptors (6x Assault Bolters) 123
Drop Pod (Storm Bolter) 65
Spearhead
Techmarine (Power sword, Storm Bolter, Servo Arm) 51
5 Devastator Squad (1x HB, 1x ML, 2x LC, Cherub) 150
5 Devastator Squad (1x HB, 1x ML, 2x LC, Cherub) 150
Predator (Twin Lascannon, 2x Lascannons) 175
Predator (Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons) 175
Vanguard
Chaplain 72
9 Sternguard Veterans (Sergeant, Power Sword) 130
5 Aggressors (Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Launchers) 185
Dreadnought (Multi-melta, Dreadnought CCW, Storm Bolter) 104

So basica idea is here you get a lot of bolter re-rolls. Re-roll 1's to hit and on top of that re-roll one to hit and wound and 1's in general (lieutenants) plus with ultas they can move and bolterdrill from turn 2.

His army was from memory:
4 russes with HB, 3 sentinels, 4 bassies, 3 support squads (mortars, 2x missile), 60 inf, las/plas.

12" deployment, vital intel.


Some thoughts:
1. we gave up turn 3, he went first and it was obvious he'd win if we kept playing.
2. biggest thing is this new update (as i guessed) makes marines more killy but just as fragile as before. My preds were crippled turn one from bassies... he just picked me apart with shooting. Think this is the biggest takeway from this post, i'm probably going to take stealthy from now on. marines need protection.
3. Maybe its my army but defo felt a bit helpless in the movement department so i was kinda left in a bit of a gunline vs gunline standoff i had no hope of winning.
4. Shock attack is a bit wild, even scouts going in have so many attacks its a bit nuts
5. With the traits i took and all the new rules and strats (new codex syndrome aside) there is a lot to remember for marines, almost to much so you forget key things you can do now.
6. Doctrines really add to the killy, esp with my army and the amount of bolters i have. Just felt very much 'not enough' in this game, he still outgunned me easily.

don't this code is gonna change the cookie cutter marine lists and make armies like mine (more fluffy) any more viable... which is crazy because on paper they are scary... but as i said on the table you can't use that scary if ye dead.

 Latro_ wrote:
Played a game vs my mate's guard last night.

My list:
Successor Traits <Bolter Fussilades, Master Artisans>

Battalion
Lieutenant (Primarchs Wrath, Power Sword) (1cp Master of strategy) 67
Primaris Lieutenant (Power Sword, Master Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle) - WL 73
10 Incessors (2x Aux-grenade, Sergeant (Power Sword) 174
10 Scout Squad 110
5 Scout Squad (Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher) 98
5 Scout Squad (Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher) 98
3 Inceptors (6x Assault Bolters) 123
Drop Pod (Storm Bolter) 65
Spearhead
Techmarine (Power sword, Storm Bolter, Servo Arm) 51
5 Devastator Squad (1x HB, 1x ML, 2x LC, Cherub) 150
5 Devastator Squad (1x HB, 1x ML, 2x LC, Cherub) 150
Predator (Twin Lascannon, 2x Lascannons) 175
Predator (Predator Autocannon, 2x Lascannons) 175
Vanguard
Chaplain 72
9 Sternguard Veterans (Sergeant, Power Sword) 130
5 Aggressors (Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Launchers) 185
Dreadnought (Multi-melta, Dreadnought CCW, Storm Bolter) 104

So basica idea is here you get a lot of bolter re-rolls. Re-roll 1's to hit and on top of that re-roll one to hit and wound and 1's in general (lieutenants) plus with ultas they can move and bolterdrill from turn 2.

His army was from memory:
4 russes with HB, 3 sentinels, 4 bassies, 3 support squads (mortars, 2x missile), 60 inf, las/plas.

12" deployment, vital intel.


Some thoughts:
1. we gave up turn 3, he went first and it was obvious he'd win if we kept playing.
2. biggest thing is this new update (as i guessed) makes marines more killy but just as fragile as before. My preds were crippled turn one from bassies... he just picked me apart with shooting. Think this is the biggest takeway from this post, i'm probably going to take stealthy from now on. marines need protection.
3. Maybe its my army but defo felt a bit helpless in the movement department so i was kinda left in a bit of a gunline vs gunline standoff i had no hope of winning.
4. Shock attack is a bit wild, even scouts going in have so many attacks its a bit nuts
5. With the traits i took and all the new rules and strats (new codex syndrome aside) there is a lot to remember for marines, almost to much so you forget key things you can do now.
6. Doctrines really add to the killy, esp with my army and the amount of bolters i have. Just felt very much 'not enough' in this game, he still outgunned me easily.

don't this code is gonna change the cookie cutter marine lists and make armies like mine (more fluffy) any more viable... which is crazy because on paper they are scary... but as i said on the table you can't use that scary if ye dead.

Yeah marines are still fragile, also not to e down on your list but it could really do with some reworking as with the same models you have rearranged you could be double battalion, and the new codex really needs CP, prepaired possitions turn one probably would have seriously improved your ability to punch back.
Predators are still rather sad on the table top, they just dont have the T, armour or Wounds to feel like a MBT.

@Latro_ your list seems to be unoptimalised...

omg totally forgot prepared positions in the fuss of remembering all the new rules!

yea its a bit of a list in development and mainly the stuff i own for marines (more of a chaos guy).

If i ran double battalion i'd have to run all those units in 5 man which for stuff like the Intercessors is a pain because you can't do something like the rapid fire 2 strat on all 10 of them or if made them assault botlers (thinking of doing that) then couldent use the auto hit on all 10 of them.

Might make the bolter scouts into two units of 5, swap the stern guard to be 2 5 man tacs with a lascannon and then run dual battalion. prob ditch the drop pod and the dread and run two razor backs with assault cannons or las. prob goes a long way to making this army better

I just noticed that Black Templar initiates still cost 13 points and have not had the same reduction to 12 points that tactical marines had. Hardly the end of the world, but a touch odd. I know they are not identical and have different set ups and squad options. Only adds a few points to my 1000 points list, but a bit odd.

Bassies ?

Basilisks. Imperial Guard artillery.

Sterling191 wrote:
Basilisks. Imperial Guard artillery.

Also surprisingly they all tend to be catachan in a emperor's wrath artillery detachments.

Hi just been reading my new dex and UM book and wondered if people could help me out. In the options for intercessor sergeants it says “can be equipped with 1 of the following INSTEAD OF a...” then lists the different bolt rifles and gives option of a chain sword and hand flamer. Then it says “if the sergeant IS NOT EQUIPPED WITH A CHAINSWORD...” and says that he can take options from his war gear list including TH and PF. Does this mean an Intercessor sarge can’t have good melee weapons and keep his bolt rifle or only if he doesn’t have a chain sword?

I think ie means he can either swap his bolt rifle for a hand flamer AND chainsword

or take a TH/PF/PS/CS and keep his bolt rifle

This is just my experience so take with a grain of salt. A lot of space marine units are best when taken en mass and you really need to overload your opponent ability to kill high toughness units to have a chance as marines because you don't have invos.

So I'm probably gonna start all my builds with 3x Vindicator 3x Redemptor dread. That is A LOT of freaking high wound high toughness models for the points and you are covering all your bases. Tons of daka and some good high str firepower too. Great CC ability - good AA ability.

Thats 850 points.

Those are gonna be the core of most my lists I think.

I run vidicators in my black templars list. Played a 1500 pt game yesterday with 2 of them. T1 they moved up and failed to do anything of note (4 wounds to a forgefiend). Then 1 got blown away by a defiler (tsons souped up defiler with double las cannon). 2nd vindicator blew the defiler away 2nd turn (4 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 14 dmg, boom baby) and it never took a wound rest of the game. For 125 pts they are a killer deal i think, especially with a marine force that can put sooo much pressure on the opponent t1.