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All the relics in your army must be different and be given to different models. Same wording for both the relics of the chapter stratagem and the honoured sergeant stratagem.

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Can I use duplicates of the Special Issue Wargear if I use the Stratagem twice? As in can I give two different models Artificer Armor? Or two different models Master-Crafted Weapons?

No you can't. The stratagem says that each relic must be unique.

So then what the heck is the point of the Special Issue Wargear? It is no different than the Codex relics.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Can I use duplicates of the Special Issue Wargear if I use the Stratagem twice? As in can I give two different models Artificer Armor? Or two different models Master-Crafted Weapons?

No you can't. The stratagem says that each relic must be unique.

So then what the heck is the point of the Special Issue Wargear? It is no different than the Codex relics.

There is a stratagem to give a sergeant a relic, but limited to only the SIW list, also successor chapters can freely take from the SIW list but face some restriction in taking parent first founding chapter relics.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Whispering softly:

please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...

GK were kings of the 5th edition meta because they were perfectly built to kill marines in a marine meta.

The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.

The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.

Grey Knights suck for a few reason.

They have no reliable delivery system. A 9 inch charge is unreliable. And yes you can think of games where you made a big charge but in a tournament system reliability is your #1 weapon.

They are a 1 wound 3+ save model. Most chaff wont have an issue killing these guys let along anything with a punch.

Their points are still too high.

The extra attack is nice but they'll rarely get to use it when it counts.

GK are not there yet, but they are a lot closer.

Anyhow onto another topic I'm sold on suppressors, but less is more.

They share the same weakness as hell blasters. Lots of dakka, high cost, low durability per point ratio, and they will draw a lot of agro. The enemy gets a vote and they will veto 2 wound models with lots of dakka and only a 3+ save.

They can however mitigate their weaknesses more than hell blasters. They don't need to get into double tap range so they can stay out of double tap range. They don't need to leave cover to get into double tap range so they can keep their cover save all game. The 12" move and jump means they can hide out of LOS on the enemy's turn 1 and jump into an optimal rooftop firing position and camp there in cover all game. Raven guard staying in their own deployment zone will be especially durable.

That being said optimal camping spots are limited so the more suppressors an army has the less optimal camping spots will be. 90 points of these seem great in any army, but I can't justify 270 in every army unless they are filling out a brigade and it's better for them than other FA options.

So, are Specialist detatchments still viable?

Can i take Indomitus Crusaders so that i have access to Rapid Fire stratagem for 1 CP.

also, i'm assuming 'Grey Shield' no longer functions, since the chapter traits are all different now?

NexAddo wrote:

The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.

Grey Knights suck for a few reason.

They have no reliable delivery system. A 9 inch charge is unreliable. And yes you can think of games where you made a big charge but in a tournament system reliability is your #1 weapon.

They are a 1 wound 3+ save model. Most chaff wont have an issue killing these guys let along anything with a punch.

Their points are still too high.

The extra attack is nice but they'll rarely get to use it when it counts.

I have argued they need their own dedicated transport that 'teleports' them into combat.

A bigger issue with grey knights is most of their roster is poorly done and they are too expensive for what you get. Their abilities are lack luster, and their wargear over priced. that and not having access to nearly as much as they should. (like why don't they have libarian dreads or some other super walker outside of their dreadknights?)

Another issue is their lack of support options that make them worth while. Especially against knights, vehicles etc.

Primaris Chaplain with Relic Crozium, Imperium's Sword WLtrait & Mantra of Strength. gives 5 S7 -2 D3 attacks plus MW on 6s. Charging or HI adds 2 attacks & for Shock Assault & WL trait.
Cast Might of heroes for another attack & strength. Add Whirlwind of Rage for exploding 6s. You can also add a 1cp Strat to make 6s auto wound if necessary.
Potentially 8 S8 -2 D3 attacks. -3 if Aasault Doctrine is active.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Whispering softly:

please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...

GK were kings of the 5th edition meta because they were perfectly built to kill marines in a marine meta.

The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.

Honestly if GK got access to doctrines they would instantly be in the meta. They have a LOT of storm bolters.

Ork-en Man wrote:
Primaris Chaplain with Relic Crozium, Imperium's Sword WLtrait & Mantra of Strength. gives 5 S7 -2 D3 attacks plus MW on 6s. Charging or HI adds 2 attacks & for Shock Assault & WL trait.
Cast Might of heroes for another attack & strength. Add Whirlwind of Rage for exploding 6s. You can also add a 1cp Strat to make 6s auto wound if necessary.
Potentially 8 S8 -2 D3 attacks. -3 if Aasault Doctrine is active.

Smash chaplain is most definitely a thing. The sallies WL trait and relic crozium makes him str 8 off the bat. More attacks are probably better but that's still fun.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:
So, are Specialist detatchments still viable?

Can i take Indomitus Crusaders so that i have access to Rapid Fire stratagem for 1 CP.

also, i'm assuming 'Grey Shield' no longer functions, since the chapter traits are all different now?

I've been asking that a few times now to no success. From what I understand, there's nothing in the book that explicitly says you can't use the Vigilus stuff, so I'd think you could use the stratagems if you pay the Vigilus tax and limit their use to Vets as before, but then every single preview has made no mention of Vigilus nor whether it's worth/possible to mix and match.

A video did note they also assumed Grey Shield no longer functions due to the new names, which is rather understandable, but a large disappointment. I was really looking forwards to running as IH or UM and still popping the Salamander rerolls for 1 turn.

I dunno the only CT that got renamed was salamnders, this is defiantly a FAQ question

Khornatedemon wrote:

Ork-en Man wrote:
Primaris Chaplain with Relic Crozium, Imperium's Sword WLtrait & Mantra of Strength. gives 5 S7 -2 D3 attacks plus MW on 6s. Charging or HI adds 2 attacks & for Shock Assault & WL trait.
Cast Might of heroes for another attack & strength. Add Whirlwind of Rage for exploding 6s. You can also add a 1cp Strat to make 6s auto wound if necessary.
Potentially 8 S8 -2 D3 attacks. -3 if Aasault Doctrine is active.

Smash chaplain is most definitely a thing. The sallies WL trait and relic crozium makes him str 8 off the bat. More attacks are probably better but that's still fun.

Can't wait to see everyone run chaplains lol

Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?

I run mine with chainswords (and don't model the chain sword cause yeah getting that would be a PITA) I figure I' rather have an additional attack for free

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?

They look cool? I mean if your intercessors get into close combat your not doing your job correctly!

I have vanguard marines jumping around with chainswords and lightning claws with a smash captain running around.

Love the changes to white scars. I love being able to run close combat again.

Did a test battle against my knight stand in army and heavy tank army, Termies still bad, but heavy bolters... shesh they just slaughter everything now. And cheap grav cannons is great, as the ultra tanky captains with storm wreathed + might of heroes just makes the game amazingly hilariously one side against most armies in close combat.

Dang. They took away my dual plasma pistol wielding Vanguard. Too bad.

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?

Sargents get 4A on round 1. Power swords only cost 4 points. Even without buffs intercessors are no slouches in CC. White scars can make those 30 intercessors S5 with +1 to wound. White scar bikes can't advance and fire bolters while intercessors can equip an assault 3 rifle for fewer points. It's not as fast as a bike but they will all be assaulting by turn 2. 60 of them is only 1080 and decently durable with a dorito.

BrianDavion wrote:
I run mine with chainswords (and don't model the chain sword cause yeah getting that would be a PITA) I figure I' rather have an additional attack for free

Well chainswords I have plenty, so that's easy modelingwise. Are combat blades still a thing, they used to give an extra attack. Sarges can't be equipped with them per se but modeling a big knife could easily count as a chainsword, even just a sheathed knife.

Kinda tempted to make a unit or two of veterans (with Power sword sarge), but the veteran intercessors stratagem seems a tad expensive. Is it a viable stratagem to start with or is it more of a flavor thing?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dang. They took away my dual plasma pistol wielding Vanguard. Too bad.

But they didn't take away our stormshield wielding vet squads with flamers or plasma guns!

Plus now that grav weapons are cheap now.... Gravgun spam + Stormshields to make those marine players cry?

So I saw some math on eliminators being ever so slightly better with a sergeant buff than 1 additional las fusil shot. Has anyone done the math on if it's the same for traditional snipers?

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?

Your intercessors should absolutely be closing into CC some of the time. You can literally double the damage output against certain targets. If orks get close, hit them with bolters and then charge them. If you can do this to multiple mobs, then do so. Seriously, intercessors have 3 attacks on the first round of combat now, a 5 man squad of intercessors putting out 10 bolt rifle shots which is then followed up by 16 CC attacks can really put dents into chaff, especially if your doing this across multiple 5-mans. Add some re-rolls to the mix and you will start wrecking orks/guard/other chaff. It is absolutely viable to throw a PF onto intercessor sergeants (thats a thing now right?) 9 points for 4 str8 -3 Dd3 attacks embedded in the squad can definitely be worth it, but only if you actually leverage your CC ability, which marines and especially primaris habe more of due to shock assault and assault doctrines.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?

Sargents get 4A on round 1. Power swords only cost 4 points. Even without buffs intercessors are no slouches in CC. White scars can make those 30 intercessors S5 with +1 to wound. White scar bikes can't advance and fire bolters while intercessors can equip an assault 3 rifle for fewer points. It's not as fast as a bike but they will all be assaulting by turn 2. 60 of them is only 1080 and decently durable with a dorito.

+1 wound? How? Marine stratgem?

Vilehydra wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?

Your intercessors should absolutely be closing into CC some of the time. You can literally double the damage output against certain targets. If orks get close, hit them with bolters and then charge them. If you can do this to multiple mobs, then do so. Seriously, intercessors have 3 attacks on the first round of combat now, a 5 man squad of intercessors putting out 10 bolt rifle shots which is then followed up by 16 CC attacks can really put dents into chaff, especially if your doing this across multiple 5-mans. Add some re-rolls to the mix and you will start wrecking orks/guard/other chaff. It is absolutely viable to throw a PF onto intercessor sergeants (thats a thing now right?) 9 points for 4 str8 -3 Dd3 attacks embedded in the squad can definitely be worth it, but only if you actually leverage your CC ability, which marines and especially primaris habe more of due to shock assault and assault doctrines.

Yeah intercessors are really quite good in cc and sergeant weapons can certainly be worth it - though they aren't always.

One of the first times I used my intercessors in 8th a unit got charged by some Slaanesh Seekers. I expected to get rolled over but in the end (after my librarian joined in) the marines ended up winning the fight. It turns out that a bunch of S4 attacks are pretty effective against things without good armour saves.

That said, I think the power sword isn't a good option. It's not going to make a lot of difference (although the cost is also very cheap, so no harm done). Power fists or Thunder Hammers make intercessors into a bit of a threat for hard targets like vehicles, so I'd sooner go for one of those. I've got three intercessor sergeants modelled up with power fists for my Crimson Fists and they sometimes do good work for me, without costing all that much extra. It makes my army a lot less fun to charge at.

One thing though: don't use the power fist off the Imperial Fist sprue. It's just an old MKVII one that they've lazily pasted in. It looks small on a Primaris guy. I've got my Power fists from other sources, like terminators and Marneus Calgar (who I'm converting to Pedro... only to probably get a proper Pedro mini at some point!)

Can you combine UM strat martial precision with flakk missile or hellfire shells. There are some situations where I could spent 2cp to auto-kill a model/unit at 1 wound for example. With UM you can try to get 2 cp each turn with adept of the codex and scryer's gaze anyway. Yes very situational, but don't we all have had moments when you could have wanted to have that 100% 1 MW to remove that last model from an objective or HQ on your turn.

Also wonder if martial precision works with hellfury bolts. Although I'd take d3 MW.. but a weird combo anyway.

 Mr.T wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?

Sargents get 4A on round 1. Power swords only cost 4 points. Even without buffs intercessors are no slouches in CC. White scars can make those 30 intercessors S5 with +1 to wound. White scar bikes can't advance and fire bolters while intercessors can equip an assault 3 rifle for fewer points. It's not as fast as a bike but they will all be assaulting by turn 2. 60 of them is only 1080 and decently durable with a dorito.

+1 wound? How? Marine stratgem?

Khan on foot gives a +1 to wound aura similar to blood angels.
S5 from the banner now wounding T4 on a 2+
2D when assault doctrine kicks in.

Regular intercessors uppercut a knight's groin on a 4+,
SHORYOUKEN!!!

Thanks all for your input.

Not been a huge fan of powerfists this edition. The hit penalty sucks and I always seem to do 1 damage.

That said the list I'm planning to go for doesn't really have too much going on in the antiarmor department outside of 10 Hellblasters, so maybe the fists would be of some use against tougher targets.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dang. They took away my dual plasma pistol wielding Vanguard. Too bad.

So ive double checked through the book, are you sure, its worded weirdly, but as far as i can tell its still doable. I only care cause my friend has made a squad with the intention of making a 2nd squad, if its not doable id like to be able to warn him, thanks

An Ultramarine veteran Intercessor sergeant with a master-crafted thunder hammer actually makes an amazing smash captain. 5 attacks on the charge with full hit re-rolls available for 1CP from sons of guilliman, with S8 -3 D4. Bump that up to 6 attacks with S10 if Tigurius gets Might of Heroes off on him. Put him in a 5 man squad in an impulsor and he is just as mobile as a smash captain while he gets into position. The cons of this build are no 3++ and it's more expensive if you factor in the impulsor. The pros are 8 ablative wounds (which work better than 3++ in some situations) and greatly increased utility and board control (the impulsor is its own thing and can soak overwatch, and the unit is scoring and can clear chaff with their ranged and melee attacks). The squad can actually reliably stick a few extra wounds on a vehicle with Gene-Wrought Might and hit re-rolls. Keep him in buff range of a lieutenant and he can reliably zero out a knight from full wounds after fighting twice (3CP).