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BrianDavion wrote:
the impulsor is the clear winner of the new stuff, it's a needed/nesscary new addition. the other stuff is mostly "nice to have"

of the new stuff I'd say the least useful is the infiltrator and incursors which strike me as somewhat specialist. they'll be a god send if you're fighting a certain list but by and large the intercessor is the superior choice for workhorse stuff

See, I think the Eliminators with Las Fusils fill an important gap in Primaris as well. High strength, high AP (they will be shooting at AP-4 in the first turn) shooting is something that was sorely lacking outside of the tanks.

But, I will definitely agree that the Impulsor filled an important niche (cheap transport that isn't a bullet magnet) for Primaris as well. I love the Invulnerable save more than any of the guns. Makes it much more possible to get those Hellblasters right where I need them right away.

Yeah, I mean, I still want to try to cram in 5 Infiltrators despite the high cost just cause there's more armies now that can get easier charges out of DS and GSC, but the Incursors seem to only provide a benefit by existing. I don't really care about the mine and their benefit seems smaller, especially now that a chapter master will let you reroll all dice, not just pre modified misses. Not that the bonus is bad, I think between anti to hit and anti cover they'll often be slightly better than an Intercessor, but they also cost more and don't have strats, which negates it.

bort wrote:
Yeah, I mean, I still want to try to cram in 5 Infiltrators despite the high cost just cause there's more armies now that can get easier charges out of DS and GSC, but the Incursors seem to only provide a benefit by existing. I don't really care about the mine and their benefit seems smaller, especially now that a chapter master will let you reroll all dice, not just pre modified misses. Not that the bonus is bad, I think between anti to hit and anti cover they'll often be slightly better than an Intercessor, but they also cost more and don't have strats, which negates it.

If a unit is only good because of strats then is it really good? Units should be able to perform on their own, even if its just when you run out of CP.

I mean infilitrators are overcosted, for what they do, and their weapons are pretty horrible.The best part about them is the generating additional wound and enemy denying locations. and the comms array. But 22pts per a model is pretty steep for a troop choice. Especially compared to the Intercessors.

Incursors seem pretty useless for their cost point, and there is very few strategems to use on them. And why would I need a close combat troop choice that has bad ap and no options for the sgt to really add any variance or support. If you have the imperial fists special rule these guys are useless.

Heafstaag wrote:

bort wrote:
Yeah, I mean, I still want to try to cram in 5 Infiltrators despite the high cost just cause there's more armies now that can get easier charges out of DS and GSC, but the Incursors seem to only provide a benefit by existing. I don't really care about the mine and their benefit seems smaller, especially now that a chapter master will let you reroll all dice, not just pre modified misses. Not that the bonus is bad, I think between anti to hit and anti cover they'll often be slightly better than an Intercessor, but they also cost more and don't have strats, which negates it.

If a unit is only good because of strats then is it really good? Units should be able to perform on their own, even if its just when you run out of CP.

Depends on the stratagem. The House Raven stratagem, Order of Companions, certainly makes Knight Castellans very strong (and they aren't, really, otherwise).

Why does no one talk about the Skyfire Stratagem and its ability to mess up a Flyer's day? Stalkers are pretty darn cheap, and have a ton of shots (and opportunities to generate those double damage hits). Add in the additional AP from the Devastator Doctrine, you'll be putting a crapload of wounds on a Flyer.

Or am I missing something here?

Infiltrators are very overcosted. Their ability to push out DS is nice though. Just not worth the cost. Let them deep strike near you and hit them with auspex scan.and team overwatch. You'll beat them every time with that combo. Not to mention your melle ability isn't that bad ether.

Marines IMO function best with a front line of intercessors and you get a lot more of them than you do for infiltrators for the same cost. AND they deal more damage at longer range. Can't be wasting points on 22 point dudes with auto wound on 6 bolt guns. Really want to screen DS just take scouts with bolt guns.

Played another game with marines vs mate's knights. Still lost, still think despite this 'on paper supercharged' codex marines fall over to a stiff breeze. I think one of the issues is the extra pts here and there, extra wounds on a few things just get lost in the overkill before this codex (if that makes sense)

Some thoughts:
Grav devi's with a chapter master and the strat are legit. Took 10 wounds off a knight in one round (of course they were removed in his next turn). Spamming these might work... but ofc can only use the strat on one.

Inceptors with heavy bolters were a surprise armour threat. Came down in his back field and in tac doctrine that's 18 shots at -2, was chipping 5 wounds of a knight. Maybe they were lucky.

Starting to feel a bit of a downer on aggressors now. Yes they can (i used mine as ultra) dish out so much dakka its insane. They never make it into combat though, never make their 185pts back (well done you killed some guardsmen super dead or welldone you took 3 wounds off a tank)... think i'd rather have two more razorbacks. (repulsor is too expensive imo to put them in)

Don't forget those character weapons. Lieutenant with MC auto bolt rifle (i take master artisans re-rolls) -1 with tac doctrine, few re-rolls and with 2dmg boom 4 wounds off a helverin in one turn.

Went to a local store who sell minis on eBay and flogged a load of my old Scythes of the emperor minis I didn't want anymore and walked out with the marine apocalypse battalion set in return.

Now sat on a significant Primaris army with around 3k painted but I now have 50 intercessors (only 20 painted) and am thinking of going really intercessor heavy and doing a double battalion which can just line up and advance into the enemy and smash them with volleys of bolter fire. Backed up by a couple of dreads and executioners I think it could work.
I play crimson fists so it would be allot of exploding sixes for bolt rifle fire which would be great.

 Latro_ wrote:
Played another game with marines vs mate's knights. Still lost, still think despite this 'on paper supercharged' codex marines fall over to a stiff breeze. I think one of the issues is the extra pts here and there, extra wounds on a few things just get lost in the overkill before this codex (if that makes sense)

Some thoughts:
Grav devi's with a chapter master and the strat are legit. Took 10 wounds off a knight in one round (of course they were removed in his next turn). Spamming these might work... but ofc can only use the strat on one.

Inceptors with heavy bolters were a surprise armour threat. Came down in his back field and in tac doctrine that's 18 shots at -2, was chipping 5 wounds of a knight. Maybe they were lucky.

Starting to feel a bit of a downer on aggressors now. Yes they can (i used mine as ultra) dish out so much dakka its insane. They never make it into combat though, never make their 185pts back (well done you killed some guardsmen super dead or welldone you took 3 wounds off a tank)... think i'd rather have two more razorbacks. (repulsor is too expensive imo to put them in)

Don't forget those character weapons. Lieutenant with MC auto bolt rifle (i take master artisans re-rolls) -1 with tac doctrine, few re-rolls and with 2dmg boom 4 wounds off a helverin in one turn.

Marines are in a good position now but we're not auto win by any stretch.

I believe assault centurions are now 53pts with hurricanes and flamers.

Could we viably just walk them up the board as a gun line unit. If they get to use their flamers or power fists it'd be a bonus, but at 53pts for a hurricane bolter (that's also AP-1 on turn 2 or later and can move 4 and double tap) and 4 T5 2+ sv wounds apiece, they look pretty scary!

Give them the 'stealthy' successor trait for a 1+ sv vs shooting too

 Latro_ wrote:
Played another game with marines vs mate's knights. Still lost, still think despite this 'on paper supercharged' codex marines fall over to a stiff breeze. I think one of the issues is the extra pts here and there, extra wounds on a few things just get lost in the overkill before this codex (if that makes sense)

Some thoughts:
Grav devi's with a chapter master and the strat are legit. Took 10 wounds off a knight in one round (of course they were removed in his next turn). Spamming these might work... but ofc can only use the strat on one.

Inceptors with heavy bolters were a surprise armour threat. Came down in his back field and in tac doctrine that's 18 shots at -2, was chipping 5 wounds of a knight. Maybe they were lucky.

Starting to feel a bit of a downer on aggressors now. Yes they can (i used mine as ultra) dish out so much dakka its insane. They never make it into combat though, never make their 185pts back (well done you killed some guardsmen super dead or welldone you took 3 wounds off a tank)... think i'd rather have two more razorbacks. (repulsor is too expensive imo to put them in)

Don't forget those character weapons. Lieutenant with MC auto bolt rifle (i take master artisans re-rolls) -1 with tac doctrine, few re-rolls and with 2dmg boom 4 wounds off a helverin in one turn.

Agressors will do the business against a few lists but against other they are going to wiff big style.

Knights are probably their worst match up while GSC, nid swarn and orks are much better match ups for them.

Tacs and intercessors especially as ultramarines have so much chaff clearing potential I'm not sure that dedicated anti horde units are necessary unless your meta is very horde.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I believe assault centurions are now 53pts with hurricanes and flamers.

Could we viably just walk them up the board as a gun line unit. If they get to use their flamers or power fists it'd be a bonus, but at 53pts for a hurricane bolter (that's also AP-1 on turn 2 or later and can move 4 and double tap) and 4 T5 2+ sv wounds apiece, they look pretty scary!

Give them the 'stealthy' successor trait for a 1+ sv vs shooting too

With a 4 inch move that just ain't gonna work. It's gotta be a storm raven or LRC. If you are just gonna walk them HB cents will do it better even though they cost 18 points more. Instead of a transport take a chaplain to give them 5+ FNP and an apoth to heal them up. Probably best as Ultramarines so you can fallback and shoot and get a -1 to hit from tiggy. You could do it with assault cents you will just have half the firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Played another game with marines vs mate's knights. Still lost, still think despite this 'on paper supercharged' codex marines fall over to a stiff breeze. I think one of the issues is the extra pts here and there, extra wounds on a few things just get lost in the overkill before this codex (if that makes sense)

Some thoughts:
Grav devi's with a chapter master and the strat are legit. Took 10 wounds off a knight in one round (of course they were removed in his next turn). Spamming these might work... but ofc can only use the strat on one.

Inceptors with heavy bolters were a surprise armour threat. Came down in his back field and in tac doctrine that's 18 shots at -2, was chipping 5 wounds of a knight. Maybe they were lucky.

Starting to feel a bit of a downer on aggressors now. Yes they can (i used mine as ultra) dish out so much dakka its insane. They never make it into combat though, never make their 185pts back (well done you killed some guardsmen super dead or welldone you took 3 wounds off a tank)... think i'd rather have two more razorbacks. (repulsor is too expensive imo to put them in)

Don't forget those character weapons. Lieutenant with MC auto bolt rifle (i take master artisans re-rolls) -1 with tac doctrine, few re-rolls and with 2dmg boom 4 wounds off a helverin in one turn.

Agressors will do the business against a few lists but against other they are going to wiff big style.

Knights are probably their worst match up while GSC, nid swarn and orks are much better match ups for them.

Tacs and intercessors especially as ultramarines have so much chaff clearing potential I'm not sure that dedicated anti horde units are necessary unless your meta is very horde.

Throwing a 3 man unit into a list might be something I try to squeeze in in the future. That is a small unit that does a lot. I think that is their purpose investing heavy into aggressors is probably a mistake.

I know this might be too much to ask, but anyone of you mathhammer specialists..

Give us a breakdown points/damage and average damage for:

Sniper scouts with cloaks, eliminators with 3 las fusil, eliminators with 2 las fusils and +1 to hit and wound, eliminators with 3 mortis rounds and lastly eliminators with two mortis rounds with +1 to wound and hit.

Against. T4 3+ sv character, T5 and knight for example.

Two scout squads cost the same as infiltrator squad and creatr a bigger screen, but that's another story. I started comparing sniper scouts to cheaper stock eliminators.. also mortis rounds with +1 to wound is wounding T8 on 4+ (characters on 2+) and D3 damage with MW on 5+ to wound..

Edit:
Naturally with devastator doctrine..

I don’t have the numbers handy anymore, but short form always with Eliminators go 2 shots and sgt bonus. I’m guessing theres maybe a chaff clearing case for shooting all 3, but for any real target the +1 is better.

As for vs Scouts, pre codex Scouts won out due to 2x the mortal odds, post buff I’d bet on Elims unless the d3 damage/shot is overkill.

Xirax wrote:
I know this might be too much to ask, but anyone of you mathhammer specialists..

Give us a breakdown points/damage and average damage for:

Sniper scouts with cloaks, eliminators with 3 las fusil, eliminators with 2 las fusils and +1 to hit and wound, eliminators with 3 mortis rounds and lastly eliminators with two mortis rounds with +1 to wound and hit.

Against. T4 3+ sv character, T5 and knight for example.

Two scout squads cost the same as infiltrator squad and creatr a bigger screen, but that's another story. I started comparing sniper scouts to cheaper stock eliminators.. also mortis rounds with +1 to wound is wounding T8 on 4+ (characters on 2+) and D3 damage with MW on 5+ to wound..

Edit:
Naturally with devastator doctrine..

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

Mathhammer sites I know lack MW on hit/wound roll of x AND extra hits on hit roll of x.

Xirax wrote:
I know this might be too much to ask, but anyone of you mathhammer specialists..

Give us a breakdown points/damage and average damage for:

Sniper scouts with cloaks, eliminators with 3 las fusil, eliminators with 2 las fusils and +1 to hit and wound, eliminators with 3 mortis rounds and lastly eliminators with two mortis rounds with +1 to wound and hit.

Against. T4 3+ sv character, T5 and knight for example.

Two scout squads cost the same as infiltrator squad and creatr a bigger screen, but that's another story. I started comparing sniper scouts to cheaper stock eliminators.. also mortis rounds with +1 to wound is wounding T8 on 4+ (characters on 2+) and D3 damage with MW on 5+ to wound..

Edit:
Naturally with devastator doctrine..

Hardly a specialist, but quite handy with excel...

**edited for mistakes Bort spotted

Hrmm, the fusil shots with the sgt come out different than I recall from the other thread, but then again could be different assumptions.

The interesting note is that by those numbers the sniper Eliminators are also better per point at AT than the fusil squad as well as giving you the sniping option.
Edit: I do think your numbers for the fusil are off, but the BattleScribe seems to have the wrong fusil cost and I don’t have my dex at work (bs says the fusil guy is only 21pts, which is obviously wrong if the fusil itself is 15pts).

bort wrote:
Hrmm, the fusil shots with the sgt come out different than I recall from the other thread, but then again could be different assumptions.

The interesting note is that by those numbers the sniper Eliminators are also better per point at AT than the fusil squad as well as giving you the sniping option.

Better at AT is a bit misleading, they are all causing minor damage to a knight to the point of being insignificant. With the knight example, T8 largely negates the strength advantage of the fusil as it only gets +1 to it's wound roll over the bolt rifle (it would be +2 against T7), and a good invul save puts both weapons on even odds of penetrating (but mortals from the rifle don't care about saves).

Okay, assuming the Eliminator himself is 21pts and the fusil is 15, I’m going to use 36 points per guy.

Vs T8/3+/5++:
5 scouts (no camo): .83W, 65pts, 78ppw
3 sniper: 1.22W, 72pts, 59.9ppw
2 sniper: 1.67W, 74pts, 44.3ppw
3 fusils: 2W, 108pts, 54ppw
2 fusils: 2.22W, 98pts, 44.1ppw

bort wrote:
Okay, assuming the Eliminator himself is 21pts and the fusil is 15, I’m going to use 36 points per guy.

Vs T8/3+/5++:
5 scouts (no camo): .83W, 65pts, 78ppw
3 sniper: 1.22W, 72pts, 59.9ppw
2 sniper: 1.67W, 74pts, 58.9ppw
3 fusils: 2W, 108pts, 54ppw
2 fusils: 2.22W, 98pts, 44.1ppw

You're right - I missed the +1 to wound on the 2 fusils vs knight. Taking off the cost of camo cloaks lines us up on scouts.

Doh, you quoted right before I fixed my ppw typo. Obv the 2 snipers doing more dmg shouldn’t have the same ppw as the 3 sniper case.

I am amazed how much better than the Scouts they are though. Pre dex I stuck with Scouts for more mortal rolls. That 5 str and chance to get +1 to wound is huge.

Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?

As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?

As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?

Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.
It just kinda sucks if you like repulsors and play another chapter.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?

As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?

Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.

Why should Chapter Tactics factor into this? It isn't like the Black Templars or White Scars are getting something out of it. The pricing should be based on them, not Iron Hands.

bort wrote:
Hrmm, the fusil shots with the sgt come out different than I recall from the other thread, but then again could be different assumptions.

The interesting note is that by those numbers the sniper Eliminators are also better per point at AT than the fusil squad as well as giving you the sniping option.
Edit: I do think your numbers for the fusil are off, but the BattleScribe seems to have the wrong fusil cost and I don’t have my dex at work (bs says the fusil guy is only 21pts, which is obviously wrong if the fusil itself is 15pts).

After you add the Las-fusil Eliminator to the unit, you have to change the Las-fusil item on the right from '0' to '1', it doesn't add the weapon automatically.

If the price is based on the BEST Scenario, you end up with a unit that's at best competitive.

If the price is based on the WORST scenario, you end up with a unit that's at worst competitive.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?

As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?

Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.

Why should Chapter Tactics factor into this? It isn't like the Black Templars or White Scars are getting something out of it. The pricing should be based on them, not Iron Hands.

A T8 W16 model that doubles it's wounds for deg and 6+ FNp and overwatches on 5+, with it rediculous amounts of dakka that's worth it's new cost every game.

As an Ultramarines player I'll never take one as it's actually worse than having no chapter tactics on it, goes from fly to fly with a -1 to hit, goes from moce and shoot without penalty to counts as stationary for the purposes of firing weapons so 0 change, yeah but giving chapter tactics it got worse

It sucks but if it's priced for the worst way to field it, IH ones would be the next how many can I ram into a list unit.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?

As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?

Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.
It just kinda sucks if you like repulsors and play another chapter.

AH, I tried searching, and Ctl-F on each page but didn't see it mentioned.

Doesn't matter to me that much(aside from the initial shock); been Playing Sons of Medusa since 4th, so I get all the Iron Hands abilities.