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2019/08/27 23:01:18
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
JNAProductions wrote: If the price is based on the BEST Scenario, you end up with a unit that's at best competitive.
If the price is based on the WORST scenario, you end up with a unit that's at worst competitive.
It shouldn't be. Chapter tactics should not factor into a units price because it doesn't factor into difference between units. All it does is punish armies for playing true to their chapters. It's friggen dumb. Across the board this codex was really well done. But absolute morons forced a repuslor price increase. His name likely starts with R - because he is a guard fanatic. It is also dumb because the iron hands trait doesn't affect the cost of the other vehicals that also benefit...like...storm ravens...and leviathan dreads...which are also massively boosted by the chapter tactic. Hopefully they revert the change. Repulsors were dropped in price because they were underperforming. They didn't improve more than any other unit so their is no reason for the price increase.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/27 23:11:28
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's a problem with the iron hands chapter tactics being universally busted not the actual units.
6+ FnP and 5+ overwatch from a tactical or intercessor unit isn't going to be game changing 90% of the time as lets be honest a 6+FNP in codex 1.0 was one of the worst tactics, it needed to be improved.
JNAProductions wrote: If the price is based on the BEST Scenario, you end up with a unit that's at best competitive.
If the price is based on the WORST scenario, you end up with a unit that's at worst competitive.
It shouldn't be. Chapter tactics should not factor into a units price because it doesn't factor into difference between units. All it does is punish armies for playing true to their chapters. It's friggen dumb. Across the board this codex was really well done. But absolute morons forced a repuslor price increase. His name likely starts with R - because he is a guard fanatic. It is also dumb because the iron hands trait doesn't affect the cost of the other vehicals that also benefit...like...storm ravens...and leviathan dreads...which are also massively boosted by the chapter tactic. Hopefully they revert the change. Repulsors were dropped in price because they were underperforming. They didn't improve more than any other unit so their is no reason for the price increase.
Storm ravens are because when was the last time you heard of one of those in a list?
Leviathans are because this is GW See no FW, Speak no FW, Play no FW mentality.
Also you leave my leviathan alone, go complain to GW about -3 to hit eldar, and tripple disco lord spam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/27 23:14:32
2019/08/27 23:20:01
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's a problem with the iron hands chapter tactics being universally busted not the actual units.
6+ FnP and 5+ overwatch from a tactical or intercessor unit isn't going to be game changing 90% of the time as lets be honest a 6+FNP in codex 1.0 was one of the worst tactics, it needed to be improved.
Uhhhh. It is clearly one of the best. 17% survivability increase in an army with 0 invune saves. Most people would prefer -1 to hit though because it is the most BUSTED trait in the entire game. 6+ FNP is a phenomenal trait. It gives you protection from mortal wounds. It gives you protection in close combat. If any trait needed to improve it was ultramarines (which it did only if you spend CP or take warlord traits). I use it for nids (who only get it within 6" of a synapse creature - still hands down the best option except on geenstellers) I use it with Eldar because Ulthwe is sweet - Ulthwe have a really high WRbtw. In many cases it is better than -1 to hit too.
And yes 5+ overwatch IS going to be game breaking. Any unit you charge is going to hit with 50% of their shots because space marines reroll all hits with most their army if they are well commanded. If Ironhands get a powerful superdoctrine its going to be GG for all other chapters. 6+ FNP also got a pretty powerful stealth buff and -1 to hits have lost about 50% of their effectiveness against all these reroll all hit auras.
Also - with assault cents getting such a massive buff - I'm sure you are going to get ALOT of storm ravens on the field. The storm raven arguably benefits even more from doctrine than the repsulor does because it can get all of it's guns into range turn 1. Plus with the Vengence of the machine spirt stratagem a storm raven can cripple an entire army and other than being blown out of the sky turn 1 - there isn't a lot you can do about it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/27 23:26:22
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/27 23:33:56
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
1/6 is 16.666___ is it not? Realistically you probably would see Ulthwe fly wings of hemlocks if spirit stones wernt a required point inclusion. 6+ FNP works better for hemlocks because they actually like to get within 12" of opponents and use smite to assassinate characters. 30 point saving on a hemlock airwing would be nice.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/27 23:39:00
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/27 23:40:59
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's a problem with the iron hands chapter tactics being universally busted not the actual units.
6+ FnP and 5+ overwatch from a tactical or intercessor unit isn't going to be game changing 90% of the time as lets be honest a 6+FNP in codex 1.0 was one of the worst tactics, it needed to be improved.
Uhhhh. It is clearly one of the best. 17% survivability increase in an army with 0 invune saves. Most people would prefer -1 to hit though because it is the most BUSTED trait in the entire game. 6+ FNP is a phenomenal trait. It gives you protection from mortal wounds. It gives you protection in close combat. If any trait needed to improve it was ultramarines (which it did only if you spend CP or take warlord traits). I use it for nids (who only get it within 6" of a synapse creature - still hands down the best option except on geenstellers) I use it with Eldar because Ulthwe is sweet - Ulthwe have a really high WRbtw. In many cases it is better than -1 to hit too.
And yes 5+ overwatch IS going to be game breaking. Any unit you charge is going to hit with 50% of their shots because space marines reroll all hits with most their army if they are well commanded. If Ironhands get a powerful superdoctrine its going to be GG for all other chapters. 6+ FNP also got a pretty powerful stealth buff and -1 to hits have lost about 50% of their effectiveness against all these reroll all hit auras.
Also - with assault cents getting such a massive buff - I'm sure you are going to get ALOT of storm ravens on the field. The storm raven arguably benefits even more from doctrine than the repsulor does because it can get all of it's guns into range turn 1. Plus with the Vengence of the machine spirt stratagem a storm raven can cripple an entire army and other than being blown out of the sky turn 1 - there isn't a lot you can do about it.
Once that happens GW will react to that, surely you've played long enough to know they tend to be very slow on seeing the combos that players see coming, but react to what they think was happening, you could argue the rights and wrongs of it all but GW will be GW.
For the record I also suspect IH are going to be the "competitive" way to marine. Ultramarines were always going to probably see the least buffs due to old bobbyG. But Calgar, cassius and Tiggy can now cary the torch, it just a shame Chronus still can't figure out how to drive a Sicaran but oh well.
2019/08/27 23:41:08
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2019/08/27 23:43:36
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
Or you do what people have been doing to Deathguard and just point D2 weaposn at them and they will see a massive 1/36th improvement in durability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/27 23:44:13
2019/08/27 23:58:14
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's a problem with the iron hands chapter tactics being universally busted not the actual units.
6+ FnP and 5+ overwatch from a tactical or intercessor unit isn't going to be game changing 90% of the time as lets be honest a 6+FNP in codex 1.0 was one of the worst tactics, it needed to be improved.
Uhhhh. It is clearly one of the best. 17% survivability increase in an army with 0 invune saves. Most people would prefer -1 to hit though because it is the most BUSTED trait in the entire game. 6+ FNP is a phenomenal trait. It gives you protection from mortal wounds. It gives you protection in close combat. If any trait needed to improve it was ultramarines (which it did only if you spend CP or take warlord traits). I use it for nids (who only get it within 6" of a synapse creature - still hands down the best option except on geenstellers) I use it with Eldar because Ulthwe is sweet - Ulthwe have a really high WRbtw. In many cases it is better than -1 to hit too.
And yes 5+ overwatch IS going to be game breaking. Any unit you charge is going to hit with 50% of their shots because space marines reroll all hits with most their army if they are well commanded. If Ironhands get a powerful superdoctrine its going to be GG for all other chapters. 6+ FNP also got a pretty powerful stealth buff and -1 to hits have lost about 50% of their effectiveness against all these reroll all hit auras.
Also - with assault cents getting such a massive buff - I'm sure you are going to get ALOT of storm ravens on the field. The storm raven arguably benefits even more from doctrine than the repsulor does because it can get all of it's guns into range turn 1. Plus with the Vengence of the machine spirt stratagem a storm raven can cripple an entire army and other than being blown out of the sky turn 1 - there isn't a lot you can do about it.
Once that happens GW will react to that, surely you've played long enough to know they tend to be very slow on seeing the combos that players see coming, but react to what they think was happening, you could argue the rights and wrongs of it all but GW will be GW.
For the record I also suspect IH are going to be the "competitive" way to marine. Ultramarines were always going to probably see the least buffs due to old bobbyG. But Calgar, cassius and Tiggy can now cary the torch, it just a shame Chronus still can't figure out how to drive a Sicaran but oh well.
Yeah - even for the Ultras I suspect staying in devastator doctrine is going to be preferable because It's not like I am not bringing heavy weapons and I can always choose not to move and put 2 units into tactical with a warlord trait and 1 CP. I also suspect the best way to run Ultramarines is going to be as a successor with always counts in cover and +3 range or a melle bonus. The characters are good but they aren't THAT good. In fact most the list I am working on for Ultras seem to want to drop Calgar so I can get a brigade going and take 1 less HQ. It gives me about the same CP and I get army wide stat buffs and only lose out on a little durability for my warlord (who can take 2 warlord traits if he is not a named character) Can actually make a gravis captain about equal to clagar with that ability with +1 wounds and 6+ FNP with the relic to halve damage. Not gonna do that just saying. The special characters are starting to feel like more of a trade off than a real advantage. Which is good I suppose but it just kinda sucks as someone who wants to play the special characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
I still don't follow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/27 23:59:00
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/28 00:01:50
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
I still don't follow.
To find how much more durable it makes you, find how much it reduces damage to.
A 6+ FNP, in this case, reduces damage to 5/6ths the normal.
Then, divide 1 by that number to get the actual durability improvement.
1/(5/6)=6/5=1.2
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2019/08/28 00:26:05
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I really do not understand why IH got three part chapter tactic when everyone else got only two part. Any two of those rules would be strong already. It also sucks that the FNP is not selectable as a custom trait, so if you want that extra durability, you gotta go full IH.
Crimson wrote: I really do not understand why IH got three part chapter tactic when everyone else got only two part. Any two of those rules would be strong already. It also sucks that the FNP is not selectable as a custom trait, so if you want that extra durability, you gotta go full IH.
Yeah, that sucks. But then, if it were selectable, probably everyone would run 6+ fnp and always counts in cover.
2019/08/28 00:58:27
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Crimson wrote: I really do not understand why IH got three part chapter tactic when everyone else got only two part. Any two of those rules would be strong already. It also sucks that the FNP is not selectable as a custom trait, so if you want that extra durability, you gotta go full IH.
Yeah, that sucks. But then, if it were selectable, probably everyone would run 6+ fnp and always counts in cover.
They could have disallowed them being taken together like was done for those two melee traits.
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
I still don't follow.
To find how much more durable it makes you, find how much it reduces damage to.
A 6+ FNP, in this case, reduces damage to 5/6ths the normal.
Then, divide 1 by that number to get the actual durability improvement.
1/(5/6)=6/5=1.2
Okay I see what you are saying now.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/28 01:42:38
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Hey guys. I have a friend who is interested in starting a 2nd army and has chosen Marines due to the new Codex. He is only in the hobby 2 years and I don't play marines myself so I can't really help him out.
He is just wondering what would you guys recommend for a 1000pt list for both fun and tournament level. And he Is wondering is there any difference between the Easy to make Intercessors and the 10 man box.
Thanks for the help.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/28 01:43:02
Kommissar Kel wrote: Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?
As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?
Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.
Why should Chapter Tactics factor into this? It isn't like the Black Templars or White Scars are getting something out of it. The pricing should be based on them, not Iron Hands.
A T8 W16 model that doubles it's wounds for deg and 6+ FNp and overwatches on 5+, with it rediculous amounts of dakka that's worth it's new cost every game.
As an Ultramarines player I'll never take one as it's actually worse than having no chapter tactics on it, goes from fly to fly with a -1 to hit, goes from moce and shoot without penalty to counts as stationary for the purposes of firing weapons so 0 change, yeah but giving chapter tactics it got worse
It sucks but if it's priced for the worst way to field it, IH ones would be the next how many can I ram into a list unit.
Ultramarines really need an errata for their Fly units.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/28 03:49:44
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I just assume the UM chapter tactic doesn't over right fly on units that fly. but thats because it'd be unprecidented for a unit to actually be NERFED by a subfaction rule.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/28 04:29:56
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/28 06:29:59
2019/08/28 06:35:35
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Odrankt wrote: Hey guys. I have a friend who is interested in starting a 2nd army and has chosen Marines due to the new Codex. He is only in the hobby 2 years and I don't play marines myself so I can't really help him out.
He is just wondering what would you guys recommend for a 1000pt list for both fun and tournament level. And he Is wondering is there any difference between the Easy to make Intercessors and the 10 man box.
Thanks for the help.
Maybe try the apocalypse box set and the marines half of the Dark Imperium box? Add some hellblasters and that might work? I’m no expert so take with a bucket of salt.
The easy to make intercessors only have those three poses and aren’t customisable in any way I believe. If he wants 10 intercessors I’d say go for the 10 man box. The easy build dread however is a good buy if you’re fine with not having multiple weapon options
2019/08/28 11:08:07
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
BA player here. I was interested in buying the space marine codex and build my own chapter: Am I forced to say from which chapter they come from or I can select my chapter tactics and say "these are my shadows angels" and that s it?
Iwas thinking to use the Stalwart/stealthy combo...
2019/08/28 11:19:58
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
BA player here. I was interested in buying the space marine codex and build my own chapter: Am I forced to say from which chapter they come from or I can select my chapter tactics and say "these are my shadows angels" and that s it?
Iwas thinking to use the Stalwart/stealthy combo...
the only time you need to declare yourself a sucessor chapter to a specific legion is if you want to use the material in the codex supplements
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/28 11:37:54
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
BA player here. I was interested in buying the space marine codex and build my own chapter: Am I forced to say from which chapter they come from or I can select my chapter tactics and say "these are my shadows angels" and that s it?
Iwas thinking to use the Stalwart/stealthy combo...
the only time you need to declare yourself a sucessor chapter to a specific legion is if you want to use the material in the codex supplements
so I can simply pick the Stalwart and stealthy combo and that s it and say that my chapter is from unknown origin since I'm not interested in getting the supplements?
2019/08/28 11:39:48
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
BA player here. I was interested in buying the space marine codex and build my own chapter: Am I forced to say from which chapter they come from or I can select my chapter tactics and say "these are my shadows angels" and that s it?
Iwas thinking to use the Stalwart/stealthy combo...
the only time you need to declare yourself a sucessor chapter to a specific legion is if you want to use the material in the codex supplements
so I can simply pick the Stalwart and stealthy combo and that s it and say that my chapter is from unknown origin since I'm not interested in getting the supplements?
Yeah exactly that
2019/08/28 11:44:47
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
This is why textual literalism is a flawed theory of jurisprudence.
5250 pts
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