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Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.

Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.

how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:
how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.

Because you're looking purely at *UNSAVED* wounds with that 20%. Saved wounds, hits that dont wound and attacks that dont hit dont care what your FNP status is, and there are plentiful ways of boosting those among non-IH chapters (spoiler alert: they're not stupidly survivable either).

But by all means, please continue on your crusade against the Iron Hands CT, just like you crusaded about Guilliman's nerf being the death knell for the entire codex. It's highly entertaining.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.

Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.

I feel it just pushes us more to using fw dreads. IH leviathan with the half dmg strat is pretty tough and also probably our best platform outside smash captains for putting wounds on knights. At least that's how I'm seeing it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.

Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.

how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.

I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.

 p5freak wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.

No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.

Isn't that specific trumps generic thing also a major assumption being made? I haven't seen it specifically written anywhere in 8th edition yet, but I admit I may have stupidly missed it since I rarely if ever have to actually argue rules in an actual game. It's not like anybody was playing Inceptors and Suppressors as if they received that nerf anyway before it applied to vehicles.

Thats how the rules work. The generic core rules are the basis, they tell you what you can do, and you cant do. The special rules like stratagems, chapter tactics, abilities on a units datasheet, etc., allow you to do things you couldnt normally do.

"That's how it works" doesn't really answer my question. Where does it say that this is how it works?

In this case, a general rule overwriting a specific one would make more sense than the opposite, so why is it assumed that a specific rule for a subfaction overwrites the rules of Fly?

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.

Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.

how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.

I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.

I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.

Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.

how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.

I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.

I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.

The Tau Sept trait is good because of its synergy with the Tau ability FTGG which IH don't get. No one takes Ulthwe in my experience and Scion of the Forge is a potential successor trait that I doubt you would take over the others. IH IMO get three decent traits. I wouldn't call that OP myself.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.

Had same reaction, and when you compare these bonuses to other armies, Tau especially yeah, the rule bloat is real. We went from 1 good or ok special rule or 1 ok + 1 as free flavour to 3 very good special rules per doctrine.

So, again, do these new codex's invalidate all prior rules regarding SMs specifically? Doesn't this reduce the rules bloat?

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.

Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.

how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.

I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.

I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.

The Tau Sept trait is good because of its synergy with the Tau ability FTGG which IH don't get. No one takes Ulthwe in my experience and Scion of the Forge is a potential successor trait that I doubt you would take over the others. IH IMO get three decent traits. I wouldn't call that OP myself.

Nah Iron Hands just get reroll all hits....

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.

Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.

how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.

I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.

I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.

The Tau Sept trait is good because of its synergy with the Tau ability FTGG which IH don't get. No one takes Ulthwe in my experience and Scion of the Forge is a potential successor trait that I doubt you would take over the others. IH IMO get three decent traits. I wouldn't call that OP myself.

Nah Iron Hands just get reroll all hits....

Yes, they will be able to reroll all those shots they didn't get against the enemy they couldn't see or the one that didn't actually charge them but still ended up in melee with them anyway. Also I am sure BA captains and other similar units will be super scared of that trait.

I play Tau man, the Tau Sept trait is good because of FTGG.

Edit: I also play SMs.

Listened to a podcast earlier who tried to say that crimson fist units with plasma using over charge against units which grant them the plus 1 to the hit roll (units with at least 5 more models) could not die from overcharging when they rolled a 1??

Is this correct as the way I read it is just off you roll a 1 you die regardless of modifiers.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Listened to a podcast earlier who tried to say that crimson fist units with plasma using over charge against units which grant them the plus 1 to the hit roll (units with at least 5 more models) could not die from overcharging when they rolled a 1??

Is this correct as the way I read it is just off you roll a 1 you die regardless of modifiers.

No, it's a modified 1 that causes a death.

So, if you have +1 to-hit that isn't canceled by anything, you can't die to plasma overheating.

Cheers for clarifying about the 'scions of guilliman' and in-codex mixing guys! Yeah I agree it'd be going against the spirit to be able to tailor each part and still get a super doctrine.

Still think tailored successors could be worth doing though. I believe you could have a combat-based white scars successor to access their strats and warlord traits allied with a detachment of ultra successors to access their strats, relics and traits?

That seems pretty powerful accessing the good stuff from 3 different books and tailoring detachments. I believe all you'd have to give up is the super-doctrine...

For example in the same army you could have:

- white scars successor smash captain and a unit of tooled up vanvets dropping in for a 3D6 charge with their strat and boosted with the trait that adds one to charges and a scars warlord trait.
- Ultramarine successor invictor warsuits that can use the 2CP strat to redeploy for perfect first turn charges, boosted with the 'master artisans' re-rolls and taking 'scions of the forge' so they degrade slower.

Then if there was any relic, strat, psychic power or warlord trait then you could add it into your army in the appropriate detachment

I'm thinking of doing a White Scars Smashplain with a Jump Pack. Give him the relic Crozius and he's pretty independent overall. Not sure that, if I have the Relic, if the Power Fist is necessary at that point though.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, do these new codex's invalidate all prior rules regarding SMs specifically? Doesn't this reduce the rules bloat?

not really, if you belived space Marines suffered from an unacceptable amount of bloat prior to this codex, it was because you felt you "had to" carry around the vigilus book, for one specialist detachment(the only one ever talked about was Indiomatus veterans) and now with the supplements you're going to want to have a supplement with you. so you've still got two books. it's a wash eaither way.

personally I don't really see 2 books as a lot of bloat, the bloat occurs when people wanna run soup and end up with 3 codices, 2 codex supplements, a campaign book, a data sheet found in a cracker jack box, and a special soundtrack CD that gives your unit a +1 bonus to all rolls when you do the macerana while you're rolling.
and trying to tie them all together.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm thinking of doing a White Scars Smashplain with a Jump Pack. Give him the relic Crozius and he's pretty independent overall. Not sure that, if I have the Relic, if the Power Fist is necessary at that point though.

The relic crozius is basically a cheapo Thunder Hammer. I don't see much of any point to take the Power Fist.

Xirax wrote:
Anyone found any gems while play testing the newly pimped marines? What feels good on a paper doesn't neccesarily perform. I fear that all around S4 weaponry will be the most lack lustering fact..

Tested out two squadrons of two typhoon land speeders in a friendly game today. Turn one they wiped out a 10-man unit of Deathwatch (with storm shields (I used frag missiles)) and had shots left over, and I had to change my whole fire plan because I hadn't expected them to do that well. Turn two they wiped out another whole vet unit. I had put the speeders in a pocket between two ruins, so they were out of LoS of all the opponent's heavy weapons on the flanks, and the DW they were firing at couldn't match their range, so nothing shot at them the whole game until they ran out of targets and moved up to claim an objective in the last turn.

I tried to move them as little as possible to avoid the -1 to hit penalty, but it was handy to be able to twitch them around in the ruins to stay out of LoS of the big guns as necessary. They're painted Ravenguard and I theorized that the chapter tactic would help them, but didn't get a chance to try it since they never got shot at. Devastator doctrine really helped them, first by forcing the DW player to put all the hits on storm shields, then once the shields were gone they chewed through the 3+ guys like crazy. I kept devastator doctrine up for three turns.

A little shy of 100 points for each of the four models, but they made their points back in two turns. The full size DW veteran units were erasing anything they shot at, so being able to stay out of their range was the biggest advantage, I think.

Sternguard with special issue boltguns in a drop pod are not at all what they used to be. They dropped and killed one guy (the storm shields), and then got chewed to pieces. I think drop podding sternguard would need combi-plas.

I also tried a couple of Storm talons with typhoon launchers, but I played them wrong and they got shot up by bolt guns. I don't think they have the firepower to each be costing the same as a pair of typhoon speeders, and with the changes to move blocking, they're less useful at the things flyers do that don't involve shooting.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm thinking of doing a White Scars Smashplain with a Jump Pack. Give him the relic Crozius and he's pretty independent overall. Not sure that, if I have the Relic, if the Power Fist is necessary at that point though.

The relic crozius is basically a cheapo Thunder Hammer. I don't see much of any point to take the Power Fist.

Mostly in case I wanna go after something slightly bigger in terms of T value like to finish off a Knight. You're probably right that it'll be unnecessary. Perhaps if I just have 12 points left.

Lemondish wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.

No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.

Isn't that specific trumps generic thing also a major assumption being made? I haven't seen it specifically written anywhere in 8th edition yet, but I admit I may have stupidly missed it since I rarely if ever have to actually argue rules in an actual game. It's not like anybody was playing Inceptors and Suppressors as if they received that nerf anyway before it applied to vehicles.

Thats how the rules work. The generic core rules are the basis, they tell you what you can do, and you cant do. The special rules like stratagems, chapter tactics, abilities on a units datasheet, etc., allow you to do things you couldnt normally do.

"That's how it works" doesn't really answer my question. Where does it say that this is how it works?

In this case, a general rule overwriting a specific one would make more sense than the opposite, so why is it assumed that a specific rule for a subfaction overwrites the rules of Fly?

It doesn't. The specific over generic thing didn't carry to 8th.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, do these new codex's invalidate all prior rules regarding SMs specifically? Doesn't this reduce the rules bloat?

I wonder this also, does it invalidate options from the previous codex that don't appear in this one? Or are they still usable like options from the index?

Strike from shadows and other chapter specific strats still good until we get a splat book?

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.

Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.

how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.

I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.

I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.

The Tau Sept trait is good because of its synergy with the Tau ability FTGG which IH don't get. No one takes Ulthwe in my experience and Scion of the Forge is a potential successor trait that I doubt you would take over the others. IH IMO get three decent traits. I wouldn't call that OP myself.

Nah Iron Hands just get reroll all hits....

Yes, they will be able to reroll all those shots they didn't get against the enemy they couldn't see or the one that didn't actually charge them but still ended up in melee with them anyway. Also I am sure BA captains and other similar units will be super scared of that trait.

I play Tau man, the Tau Sept trait is good because of FTGG.

Edit: I also play SMs.

You can only attack what you charge my friend. Every Iron hands unit is going to be doublely as effective in overwatch as a tau sept unit. Charging them is going to be equally as fatal as tau FTGG on average. Or it's just not going to kill that much on a successful charge. Ignore overwatch is not really that common. Plus it's not as if a BA smash captain is not one of the most busted units in 40k. Iron hands CT is indefensibly good.

bananathug wrote:
Strike from shadows and other chapter specific strats still good until we get a splat book?

you'll need to ask your local play group for how they wanna do it. the most hard core interpretation though would be "no because it's a new codex and they changed and dropped a number of strats"
but for friendly games.. yeah ask your local group

Just got my first game with the "New Space Marine" and I feel I will have more fun than before, even in I loose all my game.... and by the way, what happen to the FW chaplain dreadnought? Is not on the website anymore and I dont know if I can use the litanies of battle with it?

 hellpato wrote:
Just got my first game with the "New Space Marine" and I feel I will have more fun than before, even in I loose all my game.... and by the way, what happen to the FW chaplain dreadnought? Is not on the website anymore and I dont know if I can use the litanies of battle with it?

It's out of production now, also no it doesn't get litanies as they aren't on it's datasheet.

Captain with jump pack, teeth of terra, storm shield and hero of the chapter (the imperium's sword) feels tasty for it's points. 9 attacks on rerollable charges. S6 ap -2 D2. Anyone used one yet?

How are people getting twin autocannons on their dreads? I'm probably being an idiot but I just can't see it in the codex.

Xirax wrote:
Captain with jump pack, teeth of terra, storm shield and hero of the chapter (the imperium's sword) feels tasty for it's points. 9 attacks on rerollable charges. S6 ap -2 D2. Anyone used one yet?

Why would you waste his BS 2+ by not giving him a ranged weapon ? You need to get within 1" of enemy models to be able to do something, fail your charge and you do nothing. Why not shoot right away with combi plasma or combi melta, after deepstriking, and charge later ?

 Sledgio wrote:
How are people getting twin autocannons on their dreads? I'm probably being an idiot but I just can't see it in the codex.

index options are still allowed... FOR NOW