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 Xenomancers wrote:
chaplain is 3+ to gain litany - makes it unviable as a fighter.

I agree, captains are still going to be the best beat sticks. That said chaplains are cheap and are excellent seconday HQ taxes since they at least can act as a support buff. I find other cheap HQs too squishy like lieutenants or too useless like techmarines.

 buddha wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
chaplain is 3+ to gain litany - makes it unviable as a fighter.

I agree, captains are still going to be the best beat sticks. That said chaplains are cheap and are excellent seconday HQ taxes since they at least can act as a support buff. I find other cheap HQs too squishy like lieutenants or too useless like techmarines.

Yeah I'm less interested in them as a hard hitying fighter, but more thinking about interesting combos with Litanies. I want to confirm that I can use the same litany multiple times on different units, or double-litany one unit. Stuff like that.

Pretty sure it's like psychic powers, you can only attempt 1 of each type per round. I don't think there's any restrictions on stacking multiple on the same unit though...

Ahh, I see. Yeah one attempt at each litany. Too bad. (It's stated in the unit entry, not in the Litanies section.)

 Xenomancers wrote:
chaplain is 3+ to gain litany - makes it unviable as a fighter.

Really a 3+ with a reroll is an 88% chance.
People build unit's that rely on psychic powers or strategums that are vectable or denyable.
If you want to stick with Captain teath as your replacement for captain smash, go ahead, but I think the fact that multiple options atleast feel viable is a good thing for marine players.

chaplain is 3+ to gain litany - makes it unviable as a fighter.

A 3+ to get 2" extra charge range and 3" extra each on pile in and consolidate, that you use at the beginning of the Combat round before you move up to charge range. Hell yes that is a great ability. Knowing you will only have to roll a 7+ for your deep-strikers to charge if your Jump/Bike Chaplain is nearby is huge. Fail the roll? Hold them back for a turn or plan a less risky drop location and don't move the Chappy out to an exposed location. It may be unviable to you, I'd kill to have it for my SW.

Using a Jump Pack and proper blocking of LoS, the +2" doesn't come in as often as you would think outside if you running a Footplain. Of course why would you bother doing that?

I guess I'm not seeing what you are saying. Your deepstrikers must arrive outside of 9", are you saying 2" of extra charge distance won't help them? Being outside of los is nice and all, but its still a 9 on 2d6 vs a 7 on 2d6.




Edited for clarity.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Using a Jump Pack and proper blocking of LoS, the +2" doesn't come in as often as you would think outside if you running a Footplain. Of course why would you bother doing that?

Simply put Cassius is a boss, 2 litenties per turn, also stop thinking 1 dimensionally its all abput the wombo combo stack. Use one to drop the deepstrike or charges risk with the +2, and take the beat stick dude with the +1S,A &D to go ham

Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.

Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.

As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.

A couple of key takeaways for me....

Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.

Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.

Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.

Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.

Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)

Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.

Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.

Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.

As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.

A couple of key takeaways for me....

Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.

Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.

Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.

Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.

Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)

Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.

This seems about right, save that I think the Paradigm for Smash Captains has changed. If you are going to Imperium soup and sprinkle one in, I'd go White Scars Bike Captain with MCTH and two Warlord traits. 7-10 s10 d4 attacks with a range of 20" plus charge distance should make anything without bubble wrap at least a bit nervous. For 130-140(with SS)pts that is pretty decent. If you are going pure SM, then each chapter can make a decent one.

I love that the new rules have given me so many ideas for reorganising my army

My list is very fluffy and is based around aircraft and flying. The new custom chapter tactics allow me to prevent my flyers from getting bracketed too early. Since Shock Assault makes mêIée a lot more viable I could fill out my list with assault marines, a smash captain and a jump pack chaplain, then use my other successor tactic to make them choppier. That leaves me with no troops though, resulting in few command points.

However, I was very interested to see that infiltrators and incursors do count as troops. I had been avoiding Primaris for lore reasons but these units seem really cool. Now I kind of want to spam infiltrators and buff them with the phobos HQs and a successor tactic that improves their shooting.

I may also be able to go full Iron Hands. I really want their supplement now to see what their bonus ability is going to be. Could I achieve my dream of having an army that consists of an unkillable Thunderhawk and little else?

I have no idea what I ought to be doing but it is awesome to have so many options

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.

Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.

As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.

A couple of key takeaways for me....

Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.

Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.

Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.

Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.

Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)

Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.

How come apothecaries are easy kills, don’t they get screened. I’m new btw so I don’t know much

Qyleterys wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.

Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.

As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.

A couple of key takeaways for me....

Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.

Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.

Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.

Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.

Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)

Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.

How come apothecaries are easy kills, don’t they get screened. I’m new btw so I don’t know much

They do but I like to place them with the high value stuff to bring them back which means they are normally in the firing line quickly. Last night I put him with eliminators and suppressors in some ruins and he dies to a turn 1 charge giving up a kill point in the 4 pillars.

Justyn wrote:
I guess I'm not seeing what you are saying. Your deepstrikers must arrive outside of 9", are you saying 2" of extra charge distance won't help them? Being outside of los is nice and all, but its still a 9 on 2d6 vs a 7 on 2d6.




Edited for clarity.

That's assuming he's gonna Deep Strike, and to rely on a 3+ to have a better chance to charge isn't worth it. Sure you can use a CP to reroll the 3+, but it seems mandatory at that point.

If you wanted to use a Terminator Chap, it makes sense. However a Jump Chap seems more efficient for being able to chant his POWER WITHIN instead.

I'm seeing a lot of potential strong combos but haven't seen many actual lists yet. What would people run competitively if price and model availability weren't an issue? I'll put forward an ultramarine successor with 'master artisans' and 'stealthy' for a nice boost in survivability and damage output to a bunch of vehicles.

Captain with jump pack and teeth of terra upgraded to chapter master (hangs around with the gunline and provides a cheap counter charge option) 95pts
Lieutenant 67 (takes the relic that allows reroll to wound against a single unit)
Techmarine 45
Techmarine 45
3 invictor warsuits with autocannons 408 (use ultramarine strat to deploy optimally)
Leviathan dread with stormcannons
3 units of eliminators (backfield objectives) 216
3 units of scouts 165 (forward objectives + screening or first turn pressure)
3 units of 5 tacs with missile launchers (midfield objectives) 240
3 stalkers with storm cannons 294
2 whirlwinds 170

Basically the plan would be to stay in devastator doctrine all game. The list might work better with the iron hands strat. Hopefully some of the new books will give some tasty dev doctrine buffs

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of potential strong combos but haven't seen many actual lists yet. What would people run competitively if price and model availability weren't an issue? I'll put forward an ultramarine successor with 'master artisans' and 'stealthy' for a nice boost in survivability and damage output to a bunch of vehicles.

Captain with jump pack and teeth of terra upgraded to chapter master (hangs around with the gunline and provides a cheap counter charge option) 95pts
Lieutenant 67 (takes the relic that allows reroll to wound against a single unit)
Techmarine 45
Techmarine 45
3 invictor warsuits with autocannons 408 (use ultramarine strat to deploy optimally)
Leviathan dread with stormcannons
3 units of eliminators (backfield objectives) 216
3 units of scouts 165 (forward objectives + screening or first turn pressure)
3 units of 5 tacs with missile launchers (midfield objectives) 240
3 stalkers with storm cannons 294
2 whirlwinds 170

Basically the plan would be to stay in devastator doctrine all game. The list might work better with the iron hands strat. Hopefully some of the new books will give some tasty dev doctrine buffs

Some cool ideas, I'm thinking about taking some techmarines (or at least 1) in my crimson fist double repulsor army. Need to get cheap HQ choices and the d3 wounds regen in great

Justyn wrote:
I guess I'm not seeing what you are saying. Your deepstrikers must arrive outside of 9", are you saying 2" of extra charge distance won't help them? Being outside of los is nice and all, but its still a 9 on 2d6 vs a 7 on 2d6.




Edited for clarity.

What are you deep strike charging with? LOL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Justyn wrote:

Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.

Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.

As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.

A couple of key takeaways for me....

Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.

Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.

Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.

Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.

Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)

Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.

This seems about right, save that I think the Paradigm for Smash Captains has changed. If you are going to Imperium soup and sprinkle one in, I'd go White Scars Bike Captain with MCTH and two Warlord traits. 7-10 s10 d4 attacks with a range of 20" plus charge distance should make anything without bubble wrap at least a bit nervous. For 130-140(with SS)pts that is pretty decent. If you are going pure SM, then each chapter can make a decent one.

You take multiple chapters you lose super doctrine. Not viable.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of potential strong combos but haven't seen many actual lists yet. What would people run competitively if price and model availability weren't an issue? I'll put forward an ultramarine successor with 'master artisans' and 'stealthy' for a nice boost in survivability and damage output to a bunch of vehicles.

Captain with jump pack and teeth of terra upgraded to chapter master (hangs around with the gunline and provides a cheap counter charge option) 95pts
Lieutenant 67 (takes the relic that allows reroll to wound against a single unit)
Techmarine 45
Techmarine 45
3 invictor warsuits with autocannons 408 (use ultramarine strat to deploy optimally)
Leviathan dread with stormcannons
3 units of eliminators (backfield objectives) 216
3 units of scouts 165 (forward objectives + screening or first turn pressure)
3 units of 5 tacs with missile launchers (midfield objectives) 240
3 stalkers with storm cannons 294
2 whirlwinds 170

Basically the plan would be to stay in devastator doctrine all game. The list might work better with the iron hands strat. Hopefully some of the new books will give some tasty dev doctrine buffs

Captain: CM, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath, Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol
Chaplain Cassius

Tacs: 5men, C-Plas, Plas
Tacs: 5men, C-Plas, Plas
Tacs: 5men, C-Plas, Plas

Leviathan Dread: 2 Stormcannons
C-Mortis: Two Twin Las

3 Rhinos w/ 2 Stormbolter

Librarian: Psychic Shackles, Scryer's Gaze, Staff
LT: Hero of the Chapter Master of Strategy, Power Axe, Bolt Pistol

Tacs: 5men, ML
Tacs: 5men, ML
Tacs: 5men, ML

Leviathan Dread: 2 Stormcannons
C-Mortis: Two Twin Las

Was thinking of changing the Rhinos and drop the Librarian for 3 attack bikes, fill 3 elites.

Looks good, that's a decent amount pf 2+ dakka from the dreads! Cassius certainly seems strong too with two litanies per turn. At least you'll reliably get one off. Rhinos seem pretty great screening units in their own right now they're less than 7 points per wound

Ok here is a list that i was thinking should cover all my bases for a space marine all comers list.




Game plan is this : if i go 1st i will have the dev las teams in cover ready to fire. The grav team and tacticals can start in drop pods if needed and deploy out for screening and alpha strikes. Shrike and lib are a tag team able to deal with anything that i want dead in cc. The scouts and whirlwind are excellent horde clearing units (especially with spending 2cp and firing 4d6 shots from the whirlwind).

If i go 2nd i put the devs in the drop pods. Then on my turn drop them in near shrike for rerolls and game plan continues.



Thoughts welcomed.

I lost again against a Tau player and I m starting to get mad as I m never able to even draw a game! what do I have to do to beat him with a pure SM army? I fail to get rid of his drones quick enough and he ends up tearing my heavy hitter apart...

Spado wrote:
I lost again against a Tau player and I m starting to get mad as I m never able to even draw a game! what do I have to do to beat him with a pure SM army? I fail to get rid of his drones quick enough and he ends up tearing my heavy hitter apart...

Depends oh his list and yours to an extent.
Also if your using the new 2.0 codex it should be very close if ypur similar skill levels.

The problem is probably that he is presumably usingone of the two Tau build and has been using it for a while, play it enough and it's mussle memory.
The new marine codex is still an evolving process we are learning the combos that players see coming and we will need a few events to find out what actually works competatively and what's going to be friendly games only.

When it comes to tau you have to kill those drones 1st. If your plan involves cc you also have to kill a lot of firewarriors too.

3 bike squads, bare minimum, with a storm bolter on the srg, gives you 48 bolter shots at 213 pts i believe. Use them to target drone squads around anything big and blast them. Missile launchers are also very effective vs tau now, frag missiles in devestator doctrine do d6 str 4 ap-1 1dmg shots, a dev team should be able to kill drones that way then switch to anti tank roll with the krak missiles.

What is his list/your list? These things will help a lot

If you have any stalkers those things should be an auto include against tau. They really struggle against T8 and all the important stuff can fly

Spado wrote:
I lost again against a Tau player and I m starting to get mad as I m never able to even draw a game! what do I have to do to beat him with a pure SM army? I fail to get rid of his drones quick enough and he ends up tearing my heavy hitter apart...

I don't know how helpful you'll find this, but 3 Thunderfire Cannons and 3 Whirlwind Castellans comes to 501 points. You can start bombarding Drones from the start, and put immediate pressure on your opponent.

Good advice here, long range shooting to clear the drones you can see, and indirect fire to finish what you can't. His suits should pop relatively easily after that. You're always going to lose a hell of a lot of your centre pieces against tau, any list that puts its eggs in one basket will suffer against tau sept in particular.

Had another go at writing a list and realized you can put a serious amount of T7-8 3+ armour (2+ outside 12") on the field. Throw a hunter killer missile on everything (as T1 they can reroll to hit and wound with master artisans and they'll be AP-3) and add a storm bolter to everything for a bonus 48 bolter shots for 24pts...

Ultramarines successor - master artisans and stealthy

Captain on bike with storm bolter (upgrade to CM for full rerolls). He also puts out 8 shots per turn.
Lieutenant with UM relic of full rerolls to wound and storm bolter
Techmarine
3 units of intercessors (if you don't feel like having CP could swap these for eliminators or assault cents)
3 Hunters (SB + HKM)
3 stalkers (SB + HKM)
3 Whirlwinds (SB + HKM)
4 Rhinos (Double SB + HKM) - use these as screens
3 Invictor suits with autocannons

Thats almost 180 T6-8 wounds on a 2+ sv outside 12 inches... The initial HKM punch alone should down almost two russes

Also against Tau remember that they have medium range (30"-36") on everything except rail guns and ion cannons. Through the use of LOS cover and long range weapons you can mitigate a lot of the Tau effective firepower.

Tau excel at killing single big targets, but have issues with multiple tougher targets.

Do you know what type of list/sept he brings and what mission types you play?

I like that multiple vehicle list, that's pretty rad.

If trying to out-range Tau, remember they can move, advance, and still shoot as if standing still with their once-per-game ability. I've lost a game to this before.