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 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"

Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.

So after all the talk about how great/gamebreaking Thunderhammer Intercessor Sgt's would be, has anyone actually tried it out?

Just picked up a box of Vanguard Vets for those sweet TH's, wanted to see how the "Hidden Powerfist 2.0" performs before I start bashing something together.

My thoughts would be 4 of these on MSU squads, backed up by some Captains/Chaplains who also know how to dish out the hurt.

Fisheyes wrote:
So after all the talk about how great/gamebreaking Thunderhammer Intercessor Sgt's would be, has anyone actually tried it out?

Just picked up a box of Vanguard Vets for those sweet TH's, wanted to see how the "Hidden Powerfist 2.0" performs before I start bashing something together.

My thoughts would be 4 of these on MSU squads, backed up by some Captains/Chaplains who also know how to dish out the hurt.

I've been wanting to, but my fists don't have a supplement yet so no dice.

Not to mention the Impulsor isn't out yet.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"

Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.

Skyfire is a hidden gem. Especially on a Stalker. The shot count means you are likely to get one of those double damage shots off. It is a good counter to Alaitoc flyers, who will be pretty much lacking any of their shenanigans.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"

Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.

Skyfire is a hidden gem. Especially on a Stalker. The shot count means you are likely to get one of those double damage shots off. It is a good counter to Alaitoc flyers, who will be pretty much lacking any of their shenanigans.

Also don't forget - the strat also applies to your HKM and your storm bolter. I actually got the double damage proc last weekend on the HKM and I was like..."dang best 6 points I ever spent" as it proceeded to deal 10 damage to a hammer head...

On a further note with new space marine stratagems. I have tried the double shooting TFC twice now and I think it is more or less a waste of CP. The random number of shots is the real reason. The second reason is this kind of firepower is readily available in a space marine army already. I'd much rather take 5 more intercessors to take another 10 man for back up on rapid fire stratagem because often the 10 man unit gets targeted.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"

Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.

Skyfire is a hidden gem. Especially on a Stalker. The shot count means you are likely to get one of those double damage shots off. It is a good counter to Alaitoc flyers, who will be pretty much lacking any of their shenanigans.

Also don't forget - the strat also applies to your HKM and your storm bolter. I actually got the double damage proc last weekend on the HKM and I was like..."dang best 6 points I ever spent" as it proceeded to deal 10 damage to a hammer head...

Nice! I didn't even think of that. And the Storm Bolter seems like it can lay into some medium infantry with fly as a result. No added AP, but you are still going to have some decent shooting. If you can hit them, whack some bikes or whatever.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Silly idea if you've got flyers in your meta: put Chronus in a Stalker. Don't know if it'd be good enough or not, but I like how much of an orveraction it is. "Dang, there's all these flyers. PUT CHRONUS IN A FLAK GUN!"

Its a great idea! I do it all the time. It's even better now with ap-2 in dev doctrine. Plus the skyfire stratagem.

Skyfire is a hidden gem. Especially on a Stalker. The shot count means you are likely to get one of those double damage shots off. It is a good counter to Alaitoc flyers, who will be pretty much lacking any of their shenanigans.

Also don't forget - the strat also applies to your HKM and your storm bolter. I actually got the double damage proc last weekend on the HKM and I was like..."dang best 6 points I ever spent" as it proceeded to deal 10 damage to a hammer head...

On a further note with new space marine stratagems. I have tried the double shooting TFC twice now and I think it is more or less a waste of CP. The random number of shots is the real reason. The second reason is this kind of firepower is readily available in a space marine army already. I'd much rather take 5 more intercessors to take another 10 man for back up on rapid fire stratagem because often the 10 man unit gets targeted.

The double shooting TFC is for the double tremmer shells slowing down those key units can be clutch for some match ups.
But yes It's fairly CP intensive for mediocre damage, roll hot and it's worth it every time roll liw and it's wasted CP it's too swingy outside the tremmor shells to be worth the doubel shot.

Also what is you guys opinion on stalker bolt rifles now? I've been taking a few 5 mans and I have found their damage to be pretty nice. Especially for the banner fire when you die ability. I just find the added range and AP-3 on turn 1 to be quite useful for the cost of pretty cheap. I was targeting broadsides with them and it was nice to tac on 2 damage here and there. It could all be confirmation bias but the feeling you get when you reduce a 3+ to a 6 plus save with a basic weapon is satisfying.

I also find that even as an ultramarine player I am more often than not staying in the devastator doctrine until all my heavy units are dead. I could build my army more around rapid fire and assault weapons but it seems more often than not your best options are heavy weapons and even with the ignore shooting penalty for moving. Increased AP is better than not suffering -1 to hit. As suspected from the early rumors. Chapters that benefit form a devastator super doctrine are going to be at a serious advantage over everyone else.

Maybe I need to start including more plasmacannons and grav cannons (who don't really need bonus AP) but Primaris really lack options in this area that are any good. I like the sound of 10- man devs with 4 plasma cannons in the tactical doctrine - I think I'll give that a try.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also what is you guys opinion on stalker bolt rifles now? I've been taking a few 5 mans and I have found their damage to be pretty nice. Especially for the banner fire when you die ability. I just find the added range and AP-3 on turn 1 to be quite useful for the cost of pretty cheap. I was targeting broadsides with them and it was nice to tac on 2 damage here and there. It could all be confirmation bias but the feeling you get when you reduce a 3+ to a 6 plus save with a basic weapon is satisfying.

Yeah they performed very well for me in my last game, sat at the back on an objective pinging shots off. They managed to finish an eldar flyer out of the sky with a lucky shot as well!

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also what is you guys opinion on stalker bolt rifles now? I've been taking a few 5 mans and I have found their damage to be pretty nice. Especially for the banner fire when you die ability. I just find the added range and AP-3 on turn 1 to be quite useful for the cost of pretty cheap. I was targeting broadsides with them and it was nice to tac on 2 damage here and there. It could all be confirmation bias but the feeling you get when you reduce a 3+ to a 6 plus save with a basic weapon is satisfying.

I also find that even as an ultramarine player I am more often than not staying in the devastator doctrine until all my heavy units are dead. I could build my army more around rapid fire and assault weapons but it seems more often than not your best options are heavy weapons and even with the ignore shooting penalty for moving. Increased AP is better than not suffering -1 to hit. As suspected from the early rumors. Chapters that benefit form a devastator super doctrine are going to be at a serious advantage over everyone else.

Maybe I need to start including more plasmacannons and grav cannons (who don't really need bonus AP) but Primaris really lack options in this area that are any good. I like the sound of 10- man devs with 4 plasma cannons in the tactical doctrine - I think I'll give that a try.

My dreadnaughts love some move and shoot without penalty but if your playing primaris units they don't gain as much from scions as much as some of the more old school unit's.
Tacs or devs with mobile heavy weapons can be damaging, intercessors bolt rifles and even basic bolters are less ignorable with the bonus shots and Ap.

I'm running a Pros/Cons comparison between a Redemptor Dreadnought with Gatling Cannons and a Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank. Both fill similar roles with similar levels of ability, but with various pros and cons and I can't decide which is better.

Redemptor Dreadnought costs 161 points for an 'ideal' anti-infantry build, and gets 18 S5 AP-1 shots, d3 S7 AP-1 shots with AA, and 4 S4 Rapid Fire shots. It has somewhat shorter range, slower movement, and one fewer wound, but can defend itself in melee should it come to CQC.

The Sicaran Punisher costs 26pts more, but gets a whopping 27 S5 AP-1 shots (as well as 2 S4 Rapid Fire shots), an extra wound, has longer range and much faster movement, rerolls 1s without a captain nearby for 18 of its shots, but is a Relic and therefore you need at least one other Elites choice to bring it.

The Sicaran comes out on top in terms of DPS, range, durability, and mobility, but I'm not sure if it's worth the cost - The higher mobility and the higher range both end up doing the same job, the durability increase is minor, and if you don't already have an Elites choice, you could end up spending a noteworthy model tax or rearranging your list to make it work.

I say the dreadnaught for 2 reasons.

1. There is the stratagem to allow the dreadnaught to take half damage for a turn, this is actually pretty amazing and can make a huge difference in survival for such a unit.

2. I am not a fan of forgeworld, prefering to use codex options if there is a unit that can do the same job most of the time. Thats not to say i don't use or own forgeworld (forgeworld relic contemptor is freaking awsome...) but in this case i don't think the Sicaran is the better unit for the extra cost.

Of course the matter of what chapter your playing matters as well. I am a firm believer that ravenguard and iron hands will be the biggest winners of this newest release. Our damage output has gone way up now, spacemarines feel like a serious threat on the table. But our survival hasnt changed all that much, so anything that will help us stay on the table longer will be very beneficial to the army.

I mean, redemptor dreadnought that has a 2+ save (counts as in cover) and takes half dmg or 3+/6+++, takes half dmg, counts as double the wound total for degradation, and overwatches on 5's? Either one is a scary thought.

@Azuza001, for reference, I'm an Iron Hands player. I actually own the Sicaran but not the dreadnought.

I agree with point #1 about the stratagem, though - Having that ability around in case you take some heavy fire is pretty potent and easily outweighs 1 extra wound as long as there are CPs to spare.

The main reason I'm looking into this is to supplement my gunline with powerful anti-infantry, especially that will be able to use the Devestator Doctrine effectively. (S5 AP-2 will "Devestate" most infantry hordes.) I think I'm leaning towards "Dreadnought is better unless you already have an Elites choice and don't have a ton of CPs".

Important caviat is that the dreads storm bolters are always 8 shots. So really its the same total number of shots. Plus it costs a lot less. Plus 50% of a redemptors game is in CC where it hits with 5 attacks that almost always wound on 2's for d6 damage. Redemptors are quite solid.

Agreed about redemptors, they are almost always totally ignored and then by about turn 2 or 3 they are in the enemys face smashing people.

Last game he wasn't touched and I deployed him on a flank, alaitoc flyer rush and shining spears killed alot of my infantry but he left the repulsors and redemptor which he thought weren't dangerous. My redemptor finished 2 squads of shining spears (one of them deep striked behind him and failed the charge) and then proceed to march up to a wave serpent and cripple it before finally being destroyed.

Impulsors look quite good for tactical doctrine ultramarines (or successors). 2 storm bolters and an ironhail stubber = 8 shots on the move, then you can take the sky talon or missile on top of that. Using 3-4 of them for screening would definitely boost your anti infantry firepower and they can fall back and shoot if they get tagged.

Idea I had while looking through warlord traits: the slash captain. Give a captain a jump pack (cuz mobility) teeth of terra, the reroll charge and +1str +1atk on charge trait, and the ultramarines mortal wounds on 6s to wound trait. Should be 9 attacks on the charge for a decent chance at some mortal wounds. Can really go out and delete some chaff or maybe even an enemy character. Is it actually that good? Probably not, but it's the extreme end of getting as many attacks as possible on a character so an interesting thought experiment.

Slash captain is something i have used a lot in my games, he is quite effective. I run mine on a bike though because its cheaper for more mobility and an extra point of toughness and the 2 bolters attached to the bike. Might of heros on him turns him into a psudo demon prince with talons effectively.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Important caviat is that the dreads storm bolters are always 8 shots. So really its the same total number of shots. Plus it costs a lot less. Plus 50% of a redemptors game is in CC where it hits with 5 attacks that almost always wound on 2's for d6 damage. Redemptors are quite solid.

I think your math is off. A Dread will have 27-29 shots. A Sicaran will have 31. (More importantly, the Sicaran has 27 shots that take advantage of Devestator Doctrine, instead of 19-21.)

I also don't like to plan on multitasking with my units. Having CQC as an option is nice if I need some counter-assault capabilities, but I don't want to plan on moving towards the enemy or seeking out melee targets. (Against Orks or Nids, I can see the redemptor doing significantly better, but against something like Guard, I don't value the melee potential for much.)

Azuza001 wrote:
I say the dreadnaught for 2 reasons.

1. There is the stratagem to allow the dreadnaught to take half damage for a turn, this is actually pretty amazing and can make a huge difference in survival for such a unit.

2. I am not a fan of forgeworld, prefering to use codex options if there is a unit that can do the same job most of the time. Thats not to say i don't use or own forgeworld (forgeworld relic contemptor is freaking awsome...) but in this case i don't think the Sicaran is the better unit for the extra cost.

Of course the matter of what chapter your playing matters as well. I am a firm believer that ravenguard and iron hands will be the biggest winners of this newest release. Our damage output has gone way up now, spacemarines feel like a serious threat on the table. But our survival hasnt changed all that much, so anything that will help us stay on the table longer will be very beneficial to the army.

I mean, redemptor dreadnought that has a 2+ save (counts as in cover) and takes half dmg or 3+/6+++, takes half dmg, counts as double the wound total for degradation, and overwatches on 5's? Either one is a scary thought.

1. That is assuming you only ever have one Dread you want to protect. Were it a bigger investment like a Relic Contemptor or Leviathan, this would make sense. In a list when you're likely running multiple Dreads? Nah.
2. This...is not an argument.

The Dread doesn't fill a real role when you consider other Dreads existing.

Yes, he was asking between those 2 things and i gave my honest opinion. I wasnt trying to make an argument, just my opinion and my reasoning for said opinion.

If we are talking about taking just 1 vs the other, assuming you already own both models and your only taking 1, i think the dreadnaught is the preferred option. However as i also said it depends on what the rest of the list is. If your running 3 dreads then the strat doesnt come into play as much and the Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank looks much better.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Important caviat is that the dreads storm bolters are always 8 shots. So really its the same total number of shots. Plus it costs a lot less. Plus 50% of a redemptors game is in CC where it hits with 5 attacks that almost always wound on 2's for d6 damage. Redemptors are quite solid.

I think your math is off. A Dread will have 27-29 shots. A Sicaran will have 31. (More importantly, the Sicaran has 27 shots that take advantage of Devestator Doctrine, instead of 19-21.)

I also don't like to plan on multitasking with my units. Having CQC as an option is nice if I need some counter-assault capabilities, but I don't want to plan on moving towards the enemy or seeking out melee targets. (Against Orks or Nids, I can see the redemptor doing significantly better, but against something like Guard, I don't value the melee potential for much.)

It certainly involves a different game plan. I play marines like an advancing battleline so redemptors suit me perfectly. It's also true they wont see CC a lot vs tau or guard.

Sicarans can also take Sponsons for whatever that's worth. Makes them more expensive but it concentrates even more of that S5 AP-1 into one platform.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Important caviat is that the dreads storm bolters are always 8 shots. So really its the same total number of shots. Plus it costs a lot less. Plus 50% of a redemptors game is in CC where it hits with 5 attacks that almost always wound on 2's for d6 damage. Redemptors are quite solid.

I think your math is off. A Dread will have 27-29 shots. A Sicaran will have 31. (More importantly, the Sicaran has 27 shots that take advantage of Devestator Doctrine, instead of 19-21.)

I also don't like to plan on multitasking with my units. Having CQC as an option is nice if I need some counter-assault capabilities, but I don't want to plan on moving towards the enemy or seeking out melee targets. (Against Orks or Nids, I can see the redemptor doing significantly better, but against something like Guard, I don't value the melee potential for much.)

the other advantage of the sicaran punisher if your not going to be moving is it's inbuilt reroll 1's which while as a marine your probably going to be aiming to be in an aura, it does allow it a bit more ability to be left alone instead of neading to shuffle along should you have been forced to counter charge/heroically intervene.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sicarans can also take Sponsons for whatever that's worth. Makes them more expensive but it concentrates even more of that S5 AP-1 into one platform.

That is including the sponsons I'm pretty sure. The main gun is heavy 20 I believe.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sicarans can also take Sponsons for whatever that's worth. Makes them more expensive but it concentrates even more of that S5 AP-1 into one platform.

That is including the sponsons I'm pretty sure. The main gun is heavy 20 I believe.

18 but it also has a hull heavy bolter for 21+6 sponson shots

interesting this sicarian didn't go up in points like the repuslor though...I mean...It benefits a lot from doctrines..

Ya know I haven't looked at the Sicaran variants since last Chapter Approved. I know the Autocannon one got slightly cheaper and it was basically better than the Predator already.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ya know I haven't looked at the Sicaran variants since last Chapter Approved. I know the Autocannon one got slightly cheaper and it was basically better than the Predator already.

Yeah and it still is lol.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ya know I haven't looked at the Sicaran variants since last Chapter Approved. I know the Autocannon one got slightly cheaper and it was basically better than the Predator already.

Yeah and it still is lol.

They're still in the Elite slot correct?