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 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Idea I had while looking through warlord traits: the slash captain. Give a captain a jump pack (cuz mobility) teeth of terra, the reroll charge and +1str +1atk on charge trait, and the ultramarines mortal wounds on 6s to wound trait. Should be 9 attacks on the charge for a decent chance at some mortal wounds. Can really go out and delete some chaff or maybe even an enemy character. Is it actually that good? Probably not, but it's the extreme end of getting as many attacks as possible on a character so an interesting thought experiment.

I thought the current extreme end for max attacks for a slash Captain was with White Scars? Imperium’s Sword warlord trait that you mentioned plus a White Scars warlord trait of +d3 attacks. That would be 10-12 attacks on the charge.

Ah, was not aware of the white scars trait. Dont own the book for them so my scars knowledge is admittedly lacking. That probably would be the highest attacks possible. My idea was that the mortal wound procs were like pseudo extra attacks.

Actually, at a glance, those two traits look about the same mathematically with probably an edge to the white scars one, though I'd have to actually run the numbers.

Run as BT. 10 attacks on the charge, rerolls wounds with extra hits on unmodified 6s and can also get a 5+ FNP if you need it. You're down one Str, but reroll wounds is better anyway.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Run as BT. 10 attacks on the charge, rerolls wounds with extra hits on unmodified 6s and can also get a 5+ FNP if you need it. You're down one Str, but reroll wounds is better anyway.

Per the FAQ regarding effects that proc on 6s that referenced eliminanators and fist tactics would that mean 2 MW per 6?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ya know I haven't looked at the Sicaran variants since last Chapter Approved. I know the Autocannon one got slightly cheaper and it was basically better than the Predator already.

Yeah and it still is lol.

They're still in the Elite slot correct?

Saying they're better than Predators is damning with faint praise, IMO. A lot of things are better than Predators. Predators have a d3 autocannon, but are fragile and don't provide a ton of benefit over similar options. (If you want a glass cannon with high rate of fire, shave points and go for a quad-autocannon Dreadnought. If you want something durable with better DPS, pay the extra 40pts and go for a Sicaran.)

The biggest benefit of the Sicaran is that it provides efficient AA, but it's awkward in how it does it - instead of the standard +1 to hit against Fly units, (making it particularly effective against skimmers and the like,) it ignores penalties to hit against Fly units, which is worse against most non-supersonic choices, but ironically means you can advance and fire against a unit with multiple stacked hit debuffs and still use normal BS.

The regular Sicaran probably sees as much benefit as the Punisher from doctrines, since getting an extra point of AP on high ROF weapons is great, but I want to run it a couple times to see.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Run as BT. 10 attacks on the charge, rerolls wounds with extra hits on unmodified 6s and can also get a 5+ FNP if you need it. You're down one Str, but reroll wounds is better anyway.

Per the FAQ regarding effects that proc on 6s that referenced eliminanators and fist tactics would that mean 2 MW per 6?

Isn't the MW on 6s an Ultramarine thing?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Run as BT. 10 attacks on the charge, rerolls wounds with extra hits on unmodified 6s and can also get a 5+ FNP if you need it. You're down one Str, but reroll wounds is better anyway.

Per the FAQ regarding effects that proc on 6s that referenced eliminanators and fist tactics would that mean 2 MW per 6?

Isn't the MW on 6s an Ultramarine thing?

Fist tactics give extra hits, the MWs trigger on wound rolls so no double MWs.

While we're talking unit comparisons:
Is the Vindicator Laser Destroyer efficient enough to be useful?
It's only 8pts more than an equivalent Predator, gets +1 T and W, reliable damage, and an overcharge option that's admittedly limited but helpful against T5 or T9 enemies, or anyone with particularly good saves and no invuln. It loses flexibility if it moves, but that's the only downside I can see.
"Better than a Prefator" is once again weak praise, though. Is it *good*?

Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).

Sterling191 wrote:
Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).

That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/

A squad of 10 intercessors with auto-bolt rifles could be pretty good deep-strike deterrent against infantry. 30 attacks at BS4 with theoretical re-rolls should be able to blunt a genestealer cult's or whatever else's attack.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).

That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/

I dunno if that's true because of the consistent damage and the range boost. Is there any presented Mathhammer?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).

That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/

I dunno if that's true because of the consistent damage and the range boost. Is there any presented Mathhammer?

Mathhammer usually takes the average results, so it wouldn't be of much use here. Compare and contrast:
Vindicator vs, say, an Imperial Knight - 3.5 shots, 2/3rds hit, 2/3rds wound, 2/3rds fail save, 3.5 damage per shot = 3.61 damage
VLD vs an Imperial Knight - 4 shots, 2/3rds hit, 2/3rds wound, 2/3rds fail save, 3 damage per shot = 3.54 damage per shot

Trying to do math that, for example, showcases the effectiveness of having a consistent 3 damage or the likely spread of damage becomes exponentially harder.
The VLD will do better against anything with precisely 2 or 3 wounds, and the AP-5 option means that it can snipe high value targets who lack invulns if it comes up as an option. Pure vanilla Vindicator will generally do better against T5 because it wounds on 2s without losing rate of fire.

I'd be willing to bet, just going off of gut feeling, that the VLD does get a fairly significant edge for having reliable damage output, but I highly doubt that this reliability is enough to compensate for a 50% increase in points cost. You could get three Vindicators for the cost of two VLDs.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).

That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/

vanilla vindicators are less random then arcane relics of the heresy?

Waaaghpower wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Just take the regular Vindicator. You lose a bit of range, but it's 2/3rds the price with comparable offensive output and defensive profile, no self-immolation and no Relic taxes to pay (yes it isnt named as a Relic unit, but it has the Relic keyword and thus invokes the accompanying rules).

That's unfortunate. I strongly dislike taking units as random as vanilla Vindicators, but the math has them coming out way on top. :/

I dunno if that's true because of the consistent damage and the range boost. Is there any presented Mathhammer?

Mathhammer usually takes the average results, so it wouldn't be of much use here. Compare and contrast:
Vindicator vs, say, an Imperial Knight - 3.5 shots, 2/3rds hit, 2/3rds wound, 2/3rds fail save, 3.5 damage per shot = 3.61 damage
VLD vs an Imperial Knight - 4 shots, 2/3rds hit, 2/3rds wound, 2/3rds fail save, 3 damage per shot = 3.54 damage per shot

Trying to do math that, for example, showcases the effectiveness of having a consistent 3 damage or the likely spread of damage becomes exponentially harder.
The VLD will do better against anything with precisely 2 or 3 wounds, and the AP-5 option means that it can snipe high value targets who lack invulns if it comes up as an option. Pure vanilla Vindicator will generally do better against T5 because it wounds on 2s without losing rate of fire.

I'd be willing to bet, just going off of gut feeling, that the VLD does get a fairly significant edge for having reliable damage output, but I highly doubt that this reliability is enough to compensate for a 50% increase in points cost. You could get three Vindicators for the cost of two VLDs.

Seems like a case of figuring out how much you want to pay for that extra range.

Played 3 games of 500pt last night with my crimson fists and have decided I don't really like suppressors much. My list was as follows..

Crimson fist liberator strike force patrol

Primaris lt
Vox esperitum, auto bolt rifle. Expert instructor.
(For the 9 inch re rolls)

2 X 5 intercessors with bolt rifles
1 X 5 Intercessors with stalker's

3 eliminators

3 suppressors

...

Game 1 played nurgle who basically had a Daemon prince and some chaff. The Prince just flew over and killed my whole army despite being riddled with fire and charged by everyone. Lost 9-2

Game 2 against slaneesh daemons , I formed up into a castle in some ruins as I had first turn. My opponent seized and charged into my lines with everything, luckily I weathered the charge then pulled out of combat and cleaned up with my remaining squads who could fire. The following turn he charged everything else he had left and I yet again took it on the chin and finished him. Won 12-5

Game 3 against death korps of krieg. Basically on planet bowling ball against 2 Basilisk and a million mortars, I was pounded to dust on a battlefield which completely suited the guard. I had to slog the whole battlefield getting hammered the whole time, I finally got into combat right at the end but it was far too late and the cards I drew were horrific. Lost 9-2.

In conclusion I don't like suppressors really, they are incredibly cheap but they want to be in deepstrike really but you also need the firepower to be on the table with their Autocannons. A squad of 3 inceptors is far better with more wounds more toughness and more shots.

Eliminators are cool but I definitely misused them, they need to be sat miles back in cover but because of the massive boards and small amount of units I kept infiltrating then onto objectives which put them in the line of fire allot!

Just wondering if anyone has any numbers on when it is good to use the guided aim ability on the srg?

I looking at putting a squad together and if its generally good to use GA instead of firing another sniper then I'm model him up with a carbine instead for the run away option.

Thanks for any help :-)

Waaaghpower wrote:

I'd be willing to bet, just going off of gut feeling, that the VLD does get a fairly significant edge for having reliable damage output, but I highly doubt that this reliability is enough to compensate for a 50% increase in points cost. You could get three Vindicators for the cost of two VLDs.

Thats the long and short of it. Also remember that if you're taking two VLDs you need two other Heavy Support units (cause <RELIC&gt. Not necessarily hard to do for Marines, but it complicates things if you also want to bring in say a Leviathan.

 WisdomLS wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has any numbers on when it is good to use the guided aim ability on the srg?

I looking at putting a squad together and if its generally good to use GA instead of firing another sniper then I'm model him up with a carbine instead for the run away option.

Thanks for any help :-)

I don't have the numbers to hand right now (will edit to include later), but the summary is that assuming you still have a full squad of 3, using guided aim is better, especially if you use the Mortis round because it doubles your chances of getting the mortal wound.

Incidentally, a guided Mortis round is very nearly as good as a guided las fusil against toughness 6, 7 and 8, and is better in terms of points per wound and assuming no invul. If the target has a 5++ or better, they're the same.

I will be taking two bolt sniper rifles and one instigator in each of my three squads, as a brilliant multi-purpose unit that can tackle elite infantry, characters and sling approximately 7 damage a turn against even heavy vehicles (though I plan on using Master Artisans, so it will be even higher).

The maths here, including the mortal wound and the re-rolls for Master Artisans, gets pretty complicated so please feel free to correct me if I've done anything wrong!

I don't really see a purpose to suppressors. They don't fill a gap as far as I can see.

The Eliminator math is really tricky. There are all sort of things like reroll auras and Chaplain's +1 to hit which complicate the matters.

If GW ever bothers to actually release the multipart kit, my current plan is to build one squad of all sniper rifles and one squad of two fusils and a carbine sergeant.

The reason for not giving carbine to the sniper squad sergeant is the executioner rounds. When firing those the guided aim is not needed, and I'd like the sergeant to fire along with the rest of the squad.

I will eventually want a third squad too, I really like the models, but I want to first to see how these two versions perform before deciding on how to arm the third one.

Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:

Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.

Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.

Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.

The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.

The Newman wrote:
Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:

Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.

Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.

Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.

The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.

Master Crafted only applies to 1 weapon on the sargent not all of that weapon in the unit

Ice_can wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:

Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.

Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.

Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.

The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.

Master Crafted only applies to 1 weapon on the sargent not all of that weapon in the unit

Can you do this on centurions? Holy crap a master crafter hurricane bolter with ignore cover seems pretty broken.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:

Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.

Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.

Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.

The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.

Master Crafted only applies to 1 weapon on the sargent not all of that weapon in the unit

Can you do this on centurions? Holy crap a master crafter hurricane bolter with ignore cover seems pretty broken.

Can't see why not aside from GW being GW and FAQ it to be x bolters in future.
Also works on the missiles aswell -3AP Flat 4 damage isn't as good but it delets gravis fast

I think the missiles are random d3. I don't think you can do better than the hurricane bolter. It doubles potential damage on a 12 shot weapon.

Ice_can wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Don't want to dig through the whole thread to see if the following have been pointed out:

Ranged Marksmen gives Aggressors a 26" non-advancing threat range.

Honored Sergeants / Khan's Champion has no unit type restrictions, Master Crafted Boltstorm Gauntlets (Ranged) borders on stupid. Only one squad can do it, but still.

Catechism of Fire lets Aggressors wound most things on a 4+, and T8 things on a 5+. A full squad with Chapter Master rerolls and CoF will put 33 Ap1 wounds on a Knight/Russ without Master Crafted Boltstorms in the mix.

The level of combo-wombo on those things is ridiculous.

Master Crafted only applies to 1 weapon on the sargent not all of that weapon in the unit

I thought spelling out Honored Sergeant / Khan's Champion would cover that since the strats spell out one weapon on one Sergeant that isn't a character.

Also, yeah the Centurion Missile Launcher is a Heavy D3 Dd3, the strat would only make it Dd3+1. Which is still pretty decent when you get right down to it. It also could be applied to one of the Centurion's Heavy Bolters or Grav Cannon, or a Suppressor Cannon.

As stated earlier though, it gets more valuable the more shots it's effecting, so a Hurricane Bolter or Boltstorm Gauntlet (Ranged) is the best return on investment. Especially if you stack other buffs on it.

And I left out Ultramarines being able to flip two units to Tactical Doctrine on turn one. (One via strat, one via warlord trait.) Applying two full units of move-and-double-tap Aggressors to your opponent before they get to do anything in a casual game borders on TFG behavior. ...actually that might cross the line into TFG behavior depending on how casual your local group is.

Can you think of a good use for a Gravis Captain? Besides being a slow walking tank.
The model is badass and iconic and he got a nice buff with +1 wound. But it only fits in the (now overpriced) Repulsor and I can't think of many relics/warlord traits to improve him.

Maybe it's a good choice to buff walking Agressors.

I hope one of the remaining supplements bring a relic Boltstorm Gauntlet, it's quite the unimpressive piece of gear as it is.

Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.

That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.

That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.

Whats the relic to halve damage? They changed Shield Eternal. Is it a supplement specific one?