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Vilehydra wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.

That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.

Whats the relic to halve damage? They changed Shield Eternal. Is it a supplement specific one?

The only one I know of is the Ultramarine Terminator armor one. Basically it's what Shield Eternal used to be.

bort wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.

That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.

Whats the relic to halve damage? They changed Shield Eternal. Is it a supplement specific one?

The only one I know of is the Ultramarine Terminator armor one. Basically it's what Shield Eternal used to be.

So not useable by him. Neither the current (or old) Shield Eternal.

Where do you get 6" HI besides the Born Heroes successor trait?

DanielFM wrote:
Can you think of a good use for a Gravis Captain? Besides being a slow walking tank.
The model is badass and iconic and he got a nice buff with +1 wound. But it only fits in the (now overpriced) Repulsor and I can't think of many relics/warlord traits to improve him.

Maybe it's a good choice to buff walking Agressors.

I hope one of the remaining supplements bring a relic Boltstorm Gauntlet, it's quite the unimpressive piece of gear as it is.

I have been using mine as a chapter master with the vox espiritum relic. It gives him a 9" aura of reroll all hits. The lack of a transport doesn't matter because he will be walking anyway due to the aura. The gravis captain and the phobos captain are really good CM options for my RG while I wait for Shrike's new model/rules to come out.

Edit: As far as counter punch units go, just take the Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought from forge world. That thing is insanely good after the errata.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
Can you think of a good use for a Gravis Captain? Besides being a slow walking tank.
The model is badass and iconic and he got a nice buff with +1 wound. But it only fits in the (now overpriced) Repulsor and I can't think of many relics/warlord traits to improve him.

Maybe it's a good choice to buff walking Agressors.

I hope one of the remaining supplements bring a relic Boltstorm Gauntlet, it's quite the unimpressive piece of gear as it is.

I have been using mine as a chapter master with the vox espiritum relic. It gives him a 9" aura of reroll all hits. The lack of a transport doesn't matter because he will be walking anyway due to the aura. The gravis captain and the phobos captain are really good CM options for my RG while I wait for Shrike's new model/rules to come out.

Edit: As far as counter punch units go, just take the Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought from forge world. That thing is insanely good after the errata.

I second the "Chapter Master with Vox Espiritum". It's one of the few times that using the Chapter Master stratagem provides real benefits over taking named characters, since most characters don't get 9".

I have used him a few times as chapter master with vox, the 9" bubble is nice and he saved a vindicator from a deamon prince once. He is a cool model and does well in the field but all and all i find most primaris hq's sub par vs normal ones, they just don't have the upgrade options to be mobile enough for me. As a counter punch they do ok but still... not enough. Only the phobos lib do i find has enough in the positive side of things to be useable.

To me a good hq has a few different things that they need to be effective. They need to buff your army in some way and they need to be strong enough in cc that your opponent needs to think twice before charging. Finally they need some way to get to where they are needed the most quickly. Phobos libs can do this, but as a scalpel. You can give them the warlord trait to boost a units shooting (phobos only now but still works well), scryers gaze, and corridor. But that only buffs 2 squads, not much. The gravis captain is more like a rock, he is slow but hard to shift and if you go chapter master /vox he is very effective at boosing your army and kicking butt in cc.

The other primaris hq's dont cut it for me. You have to give them the burning blade relic to make them any good in cc, and their mobility isnt any better really than gravis who has the fist of "respect mah authority!" already.

DanielFM wrote:
Can you think of a good use for a Gravis Captain? Besides being a slow walking tank.
The model is badass and iconic and he got a nice buff with +1 wound. But it only fits in the (now overpriced) Repulsor and I can't think of many relics/warlord traits to improve him.

Maybe it's a good choice to buff walking Agressors.

I hope one of the remaining supplements bring a relic Boltstorm Gauntlet, it's quite the unimpressive piece of gear as it is.

What the Gravis captain seems to have going for it is melee flexibility straight out of the box. Power Fist or Master Crafted Power Sword depending on which is better against the target and a three shot pistol to clear hordes faster is a pretty darn good loadout for a model without a relic, that might be worth it by itself if you don't want to spend the CPs for a second or third relic in your list.

This is especially true if your collection is Primaris-only and your generic characters don't exactly have great melee loadouts.

He does make the best use of Master Crafted Weapon and Hellfire / Stormwrath Bolts of all the Primaris characters, but they're better used elsewhere.

DanielFM wrote:

bort wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes a pretty affordable beatstick. Overall though - without a mobility option - hes just a counter charger. Might of heros is a must for him too. You could give him 2 warlord traits. 6" heroic intervention and FNP + 1 W and a relic to half damage.

That makes him an 8 wound pseudo calgar who is able to protect your lines well with a 6" heroic. You are correct his ranged option is pretty abysmal. If it was just a 6 shot range 18" like the standard aggressor that would be a lot better.

Whats the relic to halve damage? They changed Shield Eternal. Is it a supplement specific one?

The only one I know of is the Ultramarine Terminator armor one. Basically it's what Shield Eternal used to be.

So not useable by him. Neither the current (or old) Shield Eternal.

Where do you get 6" HI besides the Born Heroes successor trait?

Still learning the book - didn't realize it was term armor only. That is disappointing. The 6" heroic is an Ultramarine warlord trait. Also the double warlord trait stratagem says you have to take 2 warlord traits from the Ultramarine codex. Probably best to combine the 2 heroic intervention traits. Warlord can do a 6 " and all units within 6 inches of him can also intervein (think dreadnoughts and additional intercessor squads etc). The space marine stratagem for an additional warlord trait seems to allow you to take warlord traits from any book.

Upon further inspection. I think putting a no investment out of the box gravis captain is probably his best use. He has pretty good base stats.

Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.

7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.

Nice discussion guys!
Another one: best company for Impulsor Hellblasters?
The most obvious one is a barebones Primaris Captain for the ever-necessary rerolls. Maybe with relic bolt rifle/bolt pistol to contribute dakka, or Burning blade for counter attack.
A Primaris Librarian would be useful for Null zone, as a Chaplain for the +1 to hit (but not the turn you dissembark, what a waste of a shooting phase), or the old school Ancient for revenge shots.
It's such a shame they changed the +1 to hit WT to Phobos only. A Reiver Lieutenant with it would have been the perfect company for the Impulsor Hellblasters.

Hace I missed any tricks in the book? (Books, but I disregard UM supplement as I play IF)

Got a full battalion box spare from apoc and have got quite a large crimson fist force now so I'm tempted to start a second marine army with the contents of the box, hoping iron hands are good I might choose them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got a full battalion box spare from apoc and have got quite a large crimson fist force now so I'm tempted to start a second marine army with the contents of the box, hoping iron hands are good I might choose them.

Lemondish wrote:
Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.

7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.

it looks good but he can't go anywhere without a transport. Counter Assault Lite as a Chapter Master as discussed earlier seems like a better idea.

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

I have tried the successor rules and I think they are solid. All you lose from being a successor seems to be special characters and one page of relics in the supplement you are using. However there is a stat that lets take one relic from that page for 1 cp if you are a successor. Honestly though the special issue wargear and the relics from Codex Space Marines are solid, so I don't think you are missing much there.

You can always just take Inheritors of the Primarch if you like your founding chapter's tactics. There are some good successor tactics such whirlwind of rage or stealthy.

I think the successor rules are competitive IMO.

DanielFM wrote:
Nice discussion guys!
Another one: best company for Impulsor Hellblasters?
The most obvious one is a barebones Primaris Captain for the ever-necessary rerolls. Maybe with relic bolt rifle/bolt pistol to contribute dakka, or Burning blade for counter attack.
A Primaris Librarian would be useful for Null zone, as a Chaplain for the +1 to hit (but not the turn you dissembark, what a waste of a shooting phase), or the old school Ancient for revenge shots.
It's such a shame they changed the +1 to hit WT to Phobos only. A Reiver Lieutenant with it would have been the perfect company for the Impulsor Hellblasters.

Hace I missed any tricks in the book? (Books, but I disregard UM supplement as I play IF)

The librarian is the best. With null zone up hellblasters are rather brutal. Through with hellblasters IMO it is either go big or go home. To get the most out of them you need a captain/chapter master, a lieutenant and a libby for null zone. Hellblasters are best used as hammer unit that you deploy supported by characters and other units.

With the phobos librarian no longer having access to null zone, I think the best way to deliver null zone to a target is a normal primaris librarian in a implusor. Moving after disembarking gives the librarian crazy threat range with null zone.

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

It isn't INTERESTING, but the list I'm working on will use the Raptors as a Raven Guard successor with the Stealthy and Marksman bonus. The way I figure it, the -1 to hit bonus won't come up a lot but the 3" does matter for an Alpha or Beta Strike.

I run my black templars as a sucsessor chapter right now because i don't care for the current templar rules. Reroll charges is nice, adding to charge rolls is better. So i run marksman and add to charge. Nothing says "Burn heritic" like templars piling out of drop pods with 11" flamers lol.

Not the most survivable way to run marines but very alpha strike effective.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

It isn't INTERESTING, but the list I'm working on will use the Raptors as a Raven Guard successor with the Stealthy and Marksman bonus. The way I figure it, the -1 to hit bonus won't come up a lot but the 3" does matter for an Alpha or Beta Strike.

Unless you are using flamers or other short range weapons master artisans is better IMO. Especially if you are running MSU.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

It isn't INTERESTING, but the list I'm working on will use the Raptors as a Raven Guard successor with the Stealthy and Marksman bonus. The way I figure it, the -1 to hit bonus won't come up a lot but the 3" does matter for an Alpha or Beta Strike.

Unless you are using flamers or other short range weapons master artisans is better IMO. Especially if you are running MSU.

Master Artisans is garbage as a trait. The moment you're anywhere near the HQs you should be near anyway, it loses a sense of purpose. Even if you only chose to run your HQ units as beatsticks, it isn't good whatsoever. It's also why The Scourged are bad too.
It wasn't good in the last codex and it sure as hell isn't good now, and the endless defending of the bad trait is honestly mind boggling. If anything, the ignoring of AP-1 is the only thing making Salamanders look worthwhile.

Meanwhile, the extra 3" actually gives worthwhile flexibility in terms of deployment and objective holding AND Deep Strike effectiveness.

Most hqs only reroll ones so with master artisan you can reroll those 2s and 3s that the hqs cant reroll. So unless you hit and wound your targets on 2s it is probably not wasted at all. And on units like the new warsuit and scouts you probably wont have a character nearby anyway.

The reroll on shooting isnt that amazing on the warsuit but after wiping out a squad and then charging in with 5 ws 3+ str 14 ap-3 D3 attacks the 2 rerolls is almost the same as adding 1-2 extra attacks since it is unlikely against any harder targets to hit and wound with all 5.

Also great if having a detachment with a single something like a thunderfire cannon that you dont want having characters around just to buff that.

Perhaps not so good in a full gunline castle list but still not bad.

Im gonna run a detachment with 3 warsuits, 3 troops and 3 whirlwinds/TF and use master artisan, stealthy and as a ultramarine successor for the redeploy stratagem if I dont go first. Having a 1000pt detachment like that to cover the weakness of my blood angels that will be the other 1000pts. Might use another first founding if the other supplements will have anything better than the redeploy strat since the other UM stuff isnt that useful

I wouldnt say master artisans is garbage. Its all about how you want to play. If you like lots of min size squads and prefer to not use hq's as force multipliers, going for a more "each unit is self supporting " salamanders are terrific. It frees up the hq pts to be spent on more units, which can be quite an effective use of points. I am not sure its a top teir option but it can be quite efficient in allowing you to save those cp on rerolls.

I just played a game using salamanders, and the rerolls for master artisans was great. Getting some rerolls away from hqs is great. It allows more freedom of movement as you're not worrying about being tied down to a character.

Aura-hammer is annoying and creates boring game-play.
Units being able to reroll on their own combats the boring play quite a bit.

Heafstaag wrote:
I just played a game using salamanders, and the rerolls for master artisans was great. Getting some rerolls away from hqs is great. It allows more freedom of movement as you're not worrying about being tied down to a character.

Aura-hammer is annoying and creates boring game-play.
Units being able to reroll on their own combats the boring play quite a bit.

I'm not interested if you consider it boring. It's more effective and that's what the tactics thread is for.


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Azuza001 wrote:
I wouldnt say master artisans is garbage. Its all about how you want to play. If you like lots of min size squads and prefer to not use hq's as force multipliers, going for a more "each unit is self supporting " salamanders are terrific. It frees up the hq pts to be spent on more units, which can be quite an effective use of points. I am not sure its a top teir option but it can be quite efficient in allowing you to save those cp on rerolls.

It wasn't a good argument for the last codex, so why is it a good argument now? Everything we have that's good needs more than a single reroll, and that's a fact.

I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.

Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.

Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.

Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:
I just played a game using salamanders, and the rerolls for master artisans was great. Getting some rerolls away from hqs is great. It allows more freedom of movement as you're not worrying about being tied down to a character.

Aura-hammer is annoying and creates boring game-play.
Units being able to reroll on their own combats the boring play quite a bit.

I'm not interested if you consider it boring. It's more effective and that's what the tactics thread is for.


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Azuza001 wrote:
I wouldnt say master artisans is garbage. Its all about how you want to play. If you like lots of min size squads and prefer to not use hq's as force multipliers, going for a more "each unit is self supporting " salamanders are terrific. It frees up the hq pts to be spent on more units, which can be quite an effective use of points. I am not sure its a top teir option but it can be quite efficient in allowing you to save those cp on rerolls.

It wasn't a good argument for the last codex, so why is it a good argument now? Everything we have that's good needs more than a single reroll, and that's a fact.

...?

Artisans allows freedom of movement. Your units are not as tied down. This means you can use units on their own a bit more- perhaps allowing you to forgo a character here and there, thus saving points. This allows the characters you do have in your list to be fielded where it matters during the game. A flank can hold on its own while still getting some rerolls. That's what I found out today. I had an invictor, a regular dread, and a tac squad hold, and eventually win a flank against my oppenents push on their own. My characters were able to stay in the center and hold the line against Mortarion.

Freeing up points and allowing flexibility in lists is nothing to scoff at.

And I'm pretty sure most people play games for fun-even competitive/tournament games. If you aren't having fun you woudn't pay the costs for a 40k army, and invest the time building and painting. Sure, people enjoy different play styles, and the artisans trait allows flexibility without shooting yourself in the foot by playing a bit more spread out, or going a bit light on characters.

Those are some solid reasons why master artisans doesn't suck.

What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.


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Azuza001 wrote:
I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.

Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.

Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.

Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.

The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.

Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.

So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.

Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.

Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.

Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.

The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.

Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.

So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?

Simply put are you running a primaris list or an old school marines list?

If your primaris then yeah it's probably not a good trait, especially if your running redemptor or repulsors as those things are rediculous buckets of dice unit's.

However if your running a lot of MSU Tacs with a single heavy it's going to allow them to keep a significant amount of their damage output re-roll buffed.

It really depends on the list you run and the missions you play as to the actual impact it has, with ITC probably not the way you want to play. With some other missions with lots of objectives or random scoring objectives being able to camp multiple objectives without being totally buffless can make a difference.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.

Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.

Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.

Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.

The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.

Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.

So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?

Meaning units can operate on their own without a character more effectively. Simple as that.

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.

Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.

Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.

Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.

The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.

Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.

So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?

Simply put are you running a primaris list or an old school marines list?

If your primaris then yeah it's probably not a good trait, especially if your running redemptor or repulsors as those things are rediculous buckets of dice unit's.

However if your running a lot of MSU Tacs with a single heavy it's going to allow them to keep a significant amount of their damage output re-roll buffed.

It really depends on the list you run and the missions you play as to the actual impact it has, with ITC probably not the way you want to play. With some other missions with lots of objectives or random scoring objectives being able to camp multiple objectives without being totally buffless can make a difference.

I'm doing mix, with both MSU and larger squads being done. It isn't good for Primaris and it isn't good for Manlet Marines either, especially with how much more other Tactics can offer (especially if you're doing camping, where Imperial Fists are easily a better choice).


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Heafstaag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What freedom of movement? I was unaware the HQ units couldn't move too? Interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
I am not concerned with what you considered a good argument in the last codex, i found it very useful before and i find it just as useful now.

Take your venerable dreadnaught with twin laz/missile. On average it is hitting with 2 of the 3 shots when it fires on the move, salamanders means its hitting with all 3 shots more often than not without having to be near a character or spending cp. Then with those 3 hits vs a t7 target again mathematically 2 of the 3 hit but that free reroll means more often its going to be wounding with all 3. Thats a significant increase in accuracy and damage output thanks to the trait.

Take a tactical squad making a pot shot with a laz cannon while holding an objective back field. Again its now able to reliably do damage with its single roll attack than without it, and again it needs no support to be useful.

Salamanders trait shines when you have minimum squads with individual single shot heavy damage weapons. The more shots your getting from a unit that is high dmg / important equipment the less effective it is. Salamanders trait isnt very good on a repulsar because it has so many shots its putting out. Its very good on a quad las predator. Its a different type of list that can take full advantage of the trait. Its not meta but it can be effective in its own right.

The QuadLas is worse mathematically than the Sicaran apparently, which has high volume shots. So that's not very convincing.

Also the Ven Dreds gain so little benefit all you need is the Lt. nearby, which he should be anyway. They also get their own reroll aura on just one CP.

So once again I gotta ask: if it wasn't a good trait to begin with BUILDING for it, why bother defending it?

Meaning units can operate on their own without a character more effectively. Simple as that.

You're not running so many units that it's a good argument. Were you talking armies that could spam units like Imperial Guard or AdMech you'd maybe have a point.

Artisans is my favourite trait out of the successors. Some units it really ramps up the damage on:

Hunters with HKMs
Eliminators with snipers
Invictors with autocannons (both ranged and CC)
Whirlwind with vengeance rounds and HKM
Any random missile launcher you throw on a tac squad or scout squad

Unlike before (when it was linked only to sallys) you can pair it with a second trait of your choosing, and also retain the boosted doctrine and extra strats from ultras or white scars. It's not the only way to make a competitive space marine list but it really shines in some situations and boosts every unit damage by a little

Edit: just did the maths on the invictors CC attacks. You're actually better off having master artisans than you are having chapter master rerolls to hit! (3.1 wounds caused vs 3). The same is true of ML or las dev squads too when targeting knights or T7 vehicles

Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?

Point doesn't matter, dismissing that the trait makes a predator with quad las better because you dont like the predator vs a different unit is not an objective argument to make to counter my point.

Same with making passive aggressive arguments about hq's not being able to move, you know exactly what we are saying. Your aura hq can not be everywhere at once. The trait allows units that normally get left behind an option to become better. The % better they become is tied to the type of weapons said unit uses. Are there different traits that can be better? Again that comes down to list building and deciding. But to flat out say something is garbage because you see no use for it in the kinds of lists you run in said tactics thread is in and of its self wrong. People come to these kinds of threads looking for advice and peoples opinions on how to make their armys play better. If you said its bad and no one argued with you then the general consensus would be your right in your opinion. The fact your getting so much push back on said argument should show that this is a personal opinion and not necessarily what the comunity as a whole agrees with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

It isn't INTERESTING, but the list I'm working on will use the Raptors as a Raven Guard successor with the Stealthy and Marksman bonus. The way I figure it, the -1 to hit bonus won't come up a lot but the 3" does matter for an Alpha or Beta Strike.

Unless you are using flamers or other short range weapons master artisans is better IMO. Especially if you are running MSU.

Master Artisans is garbage as a trait. The moment you're anywhere near the HQs you should be near anyway, it loses a sense of purpose. Even if you only chose to run your HQ units as beatsticks, it isn't good whatsoever. It's also why The Scourged are bad too.
It wasn't good in the last codex and it sure as hell isn't good now, and the endless defending of the bad trait is honestly mind boggling. If anything, the ignoring of AP-1 is the only thing making Salamanders look worthwhile.

Meanwhile, the extra 3" actually gives worthwhile flexibility in terms of deployment and objective holding AND Deep Strike effectiveness.

The extra rerolls from master artisan adds up over a game though. The Chapter Master aura makes the reroll to hit redundant but the wound reroll is still useful. Lieutenants only let you reroll ones.

I have played both DE and Tau in 8th and have experimented with their subfactions that have a bonus range "chapter tactic". Both are more restrictive than Long-range Marksmen but are double as effective. I found these traits really good on flamers and other short range weapons but rather lackluster on longer range guns. Also in some match ups the bonus range didn't seem to make any difference.

If you want to deep strike flamethrowers, sure run LRM. Otherwise I think there are better options.