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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.

7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.

it looks good but he can't go anywhere without a transport. Counter Assault Lite as a Chapter Master as discussed earlier seems like a better idea.

He rides in my dakka Repulsor, so he has a transport.

Hasn't let me down yet. Guy is an absolute beast.

Had a game with Iron Hands va White Scars today. Some thoughts:
Doctrines are pretty devastating. (Pun intended.) Marines vs Marines seems to be a battle of massive DPS and will heavily rely on who can get the first serious punch in.

Bikes are still in the unfortunate position of being 2W models, making them extremely vulnerable to autocannons and othe 2 damage weapons. (Grav with Grav-Amp stratagem as well.)

Thunderfire cannons have terrible DPS, but if you have enough command points it can be brutally powerful against assault armies - I wasn't able to kill most of his army before my first turn was over, but I was able to completely shut down his offensive power by immobilizing two of the units I couldn't kill. The tiny number of models that closed into CQC were still devestating, but it wasn't enough to hit back from the damage I did.

Azuza001 wrote:
Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?

A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.

I run master artisans and the +1 charge and advance trait.

I love the reliability they lend to my lists, I play old marines, msu with lots of dreads and the re-roll are pure gold.

Obviously it's possible to get re-rolls from having a character nearby but they cant be everywhere and we play missions where you have to go out and claim ground not sit still and shoot to win. Plus, you know , the enemy can kill characters, fun fact

Like someone mentioned before. You can also use master artisan with another trait and primary founding of your choice so you dont really miss out on anything.

Before the latest codex I dont think it was the trait that just sucked but non ultramarine marines in general. If the only good list before were a repulsor castle with g man of course the salamander trait would be a straight downgrade. But that isnt the trait being bad. The RG trait was also good before but didnt help much either since the marine with the trait sucked.

More units are viable now and there are even a few more units now than before, warsuit and eliminators, that can use the traut well. Have to revalue the traits with the new units and rules ans not be stuck in the old way. Pure UM isnt always the best anymore and their chapter tactic havent changed.

Playing as Salamanders though im a bit more unsure if it is good enough until their supplement drops. Until then using master artisan + whatever and be a UM or WS successor is probably better for now so you can get more stratagems, traits, relics and special doctrine. Should be better than a straight ignore ap 1 in almost all circumstances.

 p5freak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?

A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.

Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.

I think the Autocannon would've been a better choice to stick with. An average of 4 shots and the consistent damage makes them a far more attractive option to the TLas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.

7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.

it looks good but he can't go anywhere without a transport. Counter Assault Lite as a Chapter Master as discussed earlier seems like a better idea.

He rides in my dakka Repulsor, so he has a transport.

Hasn't let me down yet. Guy is an absolute beast.

My guess is you have a retinue of some kind for him as that's an expensive way to just transport one guy otherwise.

I've got mine magnetized, so that's not an issue, and I've been mostly using it as a dakkapred (made some Necron destroyers really sad one game), but the las configuration is, like I said, my only good source of anti-armor that I physically own. Thinking I'll get with the a ven dread with las and missile.

Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.

Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!

Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.

Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!

Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)

I’m curious if it’s still worth it for the sarge to not shoot for the +1s when you have the re-rolls. With a small squad, it seems just the extra shots might be better.

Obviously very target dependent...

With a Master Artisan reroll and a T6-9, the math is slightly in favor of using the Sergeant buff. 1.325 wounds with 2 +1+1 shots vs 1.123 with 3 normal shots.

This is in contrast to when you're shooting T3-4, which is slightly in favor of taking the 3 shots. I haven't run the numbers for T5 yet

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.

Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!

Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)

I'm not really interested in the Master Artisans numbers (I don't play Chapters for their rules), but without external buffs (but with Guided Aim) Mortis Eliminators and Lasfusil Eliminators inflict the same number of wounds against T8 5++ targets (1.11 per model).
Against T8 no invulnerable it's 1.11 vs 1.38. Interestingly, proportionally to point cost Mortis Eliminators do more damage.
It's against T7 no invulnerable (1.11 vs 1.73) when Lasfusil shine even when considering their higher cost.
There are a few T7 no invulnerable vehicles out there. I don't know if they are enough to justify the purely anti-tank configuration. But it's important to keep in mind that Knights are not the whole vehicle meta.

DanielFM wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.

Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!

Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)

I'm not really interested in the Master Artisans numbers (I don't play Chapters for their rules), but without external buffs (but with Guided Aim) Mortis Eliminators and Lasfusil Eliminators inflict the same number of wounds against T8 5++ targets (1.11 per model).
Against T8 no invulnerable it's 1.11 vs 1.38. Interestingly, proportionally to point cost Mortis Eliminators do more damage.
It's against T7 no invulnerable (1.11 vs 1.73) when Lasfusil shine even when considering their higher cost.
There are a few T7 no invulnerable vehicles out there. I don't know if they are enough to justify the purely anti-tank configuration. But it's important to keep in mind that Knights are not the whole vehicle meta.

True but the minimal benifit for the total loss of sniper ability or the ability to blind fire, makes the las configuration feel very much only the better option on such a small match up combo that for a TAC list it's just not worth considering.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think the Autocannon would've been a better choice to stick with. An average of 4 shots and the consistent damage makes them a far more attractive option to the TLas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Gravis Captain with Imperium's Sword and Armour Indomitus has been real crazy fun for me.

7 T5 2+/3++(one turn)/4++ wounds with 7 Str5 sword attacks or Str 10 fist attacks. Grant might of Heroes and you're looking at even more of a mean beatstick. Boosts him to T6, 8 attacks at either Str6, -3 AP, 2 damage or Str12 with -3 AP D3d but -1 to hit.

it looks good but he can't go anywhere without a transport. Counter Assault Lite as a Chapter Master as discussed earlier seems like a better idea.

He rides in my dakka Repulsor, so he has a transport.

Hasn't let me down yet. Guy is an absolute beast.

My guess is you have a retinue of some kind for him as that's an expensive way to just transport one guy otherwise.

Agreed on the Autocannon.

And yes - but his retinue really depends on the opponent. Most times it's a 3 man squad of Aggressors alongside an Lt with power sword and the Ancient. Sometimes it's worth splitting them up to avoid the "too many fish in a barrel" issue.

Thankfully I've found other threats to add in the list that make it hard for someone to always choose that particular Repulsor to focus.

There are some decent deployment maps against some fast forces that make it better to just march him up the board and meet them head on, but that's not something I'd often plan for.

Good thing nothing about building this guy comes from wargear so if he won't be doing me proud then I don't really need him that match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DanielFM wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just been running some numbers on master artisans eliminators. These guys are actually incredibly strong anti tank with just the sniper rifles! With the mortis rounds, the sergeants plus 1 to hit and wound and the rerolls three squads do 7 wounds on average to a 5++ knight. It's comparable to the efficiency of guard tank commanders, which are very efficient indeed.

Thats seriously efficient anti tank firepower on a decently durable unit. And if the enemy has a few characters floating around, even better!

Not done the numbers on the las fusils, but I suspect thry won't be much better on a damage per point basis while being squishier (you get less wounds per point)

I'm not really interested in the Master Artisans numbers (I don't play Chapters for their rules), but without external buffs (but with Guided Aim) Mortis Eliminators and Lasfusil Eliminators inflict the same number of wounds against T8 5++ targets (1.11 per model).
Against T8 no invulnerable it's 1.11 vs 1.38. Interestingly, proportionally to point cost Mortis Eliminators do more damage.
It's against T7 no invulnerable (1.11 vs 1.73) when Lasfusil shine even when considering their higher cost.
There are a few T7 no invulnerable vehicles out there. I don't know if they are enough to justify the purely anti-tank configuration. But it's important to keep in mind that Knights are not the whole vehicle meta.

Took me so long to figure out they changed the round names from the Shadowspear codex. In the old one the mortis was the ignore los shot lol

 GreatGranpapy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?

A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.

Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.

I just did the comparison between a LC Predator and LC Relic Contemptor.
Contemptor is 15pts more, and gets:
+1 Wound
+1 Armor
5+ Invuln
+1 BS
6+ FNP
And has room for a Cyclone Missile Launcher.

The Predator:
Moves slightly faster until it gets damaged, then moves slower
Isn't a Relic
Can take a HKM

The dreadnought comes out *Massively* on top. The only significant advantage is that you don't need a second unit in the same detachment to take a Predator.

It isn't hard to meet those extra Elite requirements though. Ancients with the Relic Banner are still a fantastic pick, and with everyone still getting access to Honour Guard that's a quick 50 point tax and extra wounds for your HQ if you so wish.

Call me crazy, but Stormhawks look pretty decent. Devastator doctrine helps them so much, and if you're Ultras (and find yourself in Tac doctrine) they can fly around without worrying about the hit-modifier for their heavy weapons (all of them). Depending on what the Devastator focused chapters have they could be nuts for them.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?

A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.

Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.

I just did the comparison between a LC Predator and LC Relic Contemptor.
Contemptor is 15pts more, and gets:
+1 Wound
+1 Armor
5+ Invuln
+1 BS
6+ FNP
And has room for a Cyclone Missile Launcher.

The Predator:
Moves slightly faster until it gets damaged, then moves slower
Isn't a Relic
Can take a HKM

The dreadnought comes out *Massively* on top. The only significant advantage is that you don't need a second unit in the same detachment to take a Predator.

It's 168pts for a 4las Contemptor Mortis, which isn't a Relic either. No 6+ FNP, but meh?

 Crazyterran wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?

A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.

Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.

I just did the comparison between a LC Predator and LC Relic Contemptor.
Contemptor is 15pts more, and gets:
+1 Wound
+1 Armor
5+ Invuln
+1 BS
6+ FNP
And has room for a Cyclone Missile Launcher.

The Predator:
Moves slightly faster until it gets damaged, then moves slower
Isn't a Relic
Can take a HKM

The dreadnought comes out *Massively* on top. The only significant advantage is that you don't need a second unit in the same detachment to take a Predator.

It's 168pts for a 4las Contemptor Mortis, which isn't a Relic either. No 6+ FNP, but meh?

You forgot to mention that the dread can do some damage in melee with 4 attacks, hitting on 2+, with S7 AP0 D1. The pred has 3 attacks, hitting on 6+, with S6 AP0 D1 The pred shouldnt cost more than 140-150 pts.

Fun fact about the relic contemptor dread, you can re-roll hit rolls of 1s for its plasma blastguns, when it has two melee weapons

How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

dip those hands in blue and run them as the ultramarines!

joking aside I have no issue with it, If you decided to switch perminatly to iron hands I'd proably prefer to see you repaint your army but obviously that's not practical and an ideal. parituclarly as you may just really like the paint job.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

I have zero problem with it whatsoever, I myself have a red space marine army, sometimes they are blood angels but most of the time they are something else, the beauty of a space marine army is that it can be played with a vast array of different rules and playstyle.
Some people do seem a little put out when people use the wrong colour marine rules and that is there choice and opinion. This type of thing only seems to be an issue with marines though as noone blinks an eye at the various colours of always alaitoc eldar, different scheme bugs and cults and various shades of drybrushed necrons. The fact that marines chapters are well known and usually distinctly different colour blocks makes people think that for some reason the rules should be applied differently.
As always paint your models how you want to, if you want to paint a brown and pink Roboute then feel free and still play with it.

All that said it is important that your opponent knows what you are playing with, so having the correct wargear modelled is a must and having different detachments using different chapter rules but with models painted in the same scheme is a no go. Both players need to feel fully informed and happy when playing.

That's cool yeah I am a big crimson fist fanboy and will use the rules when they are eventually released but I've got quite alot of dreadnoughts and vehicles and I think it would work quite well for the models I have.

I'm still toying with a secondary chapter for fun though... Can't help myself

Trying to think of some way to make an all-dreadnought army somewhat viable in a semi-competitive meta. Iron Hands obviously.

3 Invictors infiltrating would deal with chaff and put a pretty big dent in hordes, but if I came up against Knights? Or any army with a lot of armour? I just can't see where enough firepower would come from.

It may only be viable with the FW Leviathan, but I can't afford any of them right now...

Thoughts? Will relic contemptors do enough damage? Do I have to take my own Knight?

Having a game on friday and I'm going to be trying out some old units that haven't seen the tabletop in a few years.

What are your thoughts on applications and loads outs for the following:

Centurian devestators - thinking of running then with Lascannon/hurricans and keeping an apothecary nearby.

Sternguard in a pod - the special issue bolter seems like a must take, fist on srg.

Tactical terminators with cyclone - these love ultramarine tactical doc turn two.

Terminator captain with chainfist - cheap alternative to the captain smash to drop do with the sternguard and terms.

Company champion - seems very solid for the points, gonna pop him in the pod and see if he can surprise any characters. Can take the shield eternal as it can now replace a combat shield which seems tasty.

I run ultra successors with master artisans and +1 advance and charge traits as I love the reliability they lend.

For anti tank I really think invictors and do the job with a strength 14 power fist and 5 attacks the first round of combat with ap -3 and flat 3 damage that's good!

 Crazyterran wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Just because a sacaran is mathematically better than the pred (which i have not looked at so i will just give that to you) doesnt mean a damn thing if players dont own/use said sacaran. Maybe their local scene has a very competitive aspect but no forgeworld allowed? Maybe they dont have the points to get the sacaran? Maybe they are trying to fill their heavy support area out?

A quad LC pred is one of the worst vehicles marines have. Two LC razorbacks are better. A quad LC contemptor dread is even better.

Well that's kinda disheartening. My predator is my only source of anti-armor at the moment.... Guess I'll need to get something else.

I just did the comparison between a LC Predator and LC Relic Contemptor.
Contemptor is 15pts more, and gets:
+1 Wound
+1 Armor
5+ Invuln
+1 BS
6+ FNP
And has room for a Cyclone Missile Launcher.

The Predator:
Moves slightly faster until it gets damaged, then moves slower
Isn't a Relic
Can take a HKM

The dreadnought comes out *Massively* on top. The only significant advantage is that you don't need a second unit in the same detachment to take a Predator.

It's 168pts for a 4las Contemptor Mortis, which isn't a Relic either. No 6+ FNP, but meh?

It also looses 2 wounds and only has a 3+ sv
Degrades after 4 wounds not 5 etc
It's not that it's a bad choice it's more their is more too it.
For some lists not having to met the relic requirement can be a big selling point in it's favour.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
For anti tank I really think invictors and do the job with a strength 14 power fist and 5 attacks the first round of combat with ap -3 and flat 3 damage that's good!

You need to get there first. So you need something to help clean up the screening blob in addition to your arm mount HF.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.