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Ok I think my battalion box and inceptors are going to be the start of a new iron hands army..

Big winners for my iron hands:

Grav devs in a pod is criminal not to take.

Stormtalons

Suppressors

Dakka redemptors

Assault cannon razorback

 buddha wrote:
Big winners for my iron hands:

Grav devs in a pod is criminal not to take.

Stormtalons

Suppressors

Dakka redemptors

Assault cannon razorback

dakka redemptors and stormtalon for sure

also dakka predators, cheap and good mobility with IH doc

Ice_can wrote:
I hate to say it but this looks nasty and the last roumer was apparently saying Imperial Fists are bordeline broken.
If their isn't some.unseen downside to Iron hands I can see a lot of calls for marine nerfs coming very soon and getting more vocal when imperial fists drop if they truely are even more over powered than iron hands are already starting to look.

I think from most sources I have seen Ironhand's is considered to be the strongest. They are exceptionally broken though compared to the other 2 armies we have seen rules for. Even if Crimson fists is slightly less broken they are still one of the best options in all of the game.

Though - is it really fair to compare 8th edition codex to 9th edition codex?

IMHO Iron Hands is.. sisutational. they're great if you wanna run tank heavy, but not so great otherwise. and Ultramarines might be, arguably better, if your tanks are repulsor executioners.

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO Iron Hands is.. sisutational. they're great if you wanna run tank heavy, but not so great otherwise. and Ultramarines might be, arguably better, if your tanks are repulsor executioners.

How exactly? Sure the if you are running a las repulsor you would probably be better in the tactical doctrine on that unit though the AP-4 can be amazing - Even AP-5 on an executioner is hilarious when hunting 3+ tanks in cover without invunes. Or broadsides in cover. Aside from the AP bonus you are giving up 6+ FNP (so basically 3 more additional wounds) overwatch on 5+ and half damage for degradation.

For every benifit you get for being ultramarines in tactical there is a trade off of durability which in the end is not even fair.
Ultras wait for their bonus to apply turn 2 for most their units. The bonus is for inferior weapons. Their chapter tactic sucks in comparison. There is nothing situational about ironhands. Who do you think wins the matchup between Ironhands stalkers vs intercessors with bolt rifle in tactical doctrine?

My first thought is two repulsor executioners next to the ironstone. Their main problem is being too easy to one-shot, but with a -1 damage relic they might just hang around long enough to gun down the foe

You wouldn't even necessarily need to run them as pure iron hands as they don't gain anything from the super doctrine.

Have we discussed the concept of a "Smash Chaplain" yet?

Primaris Chaplain, Warlord with Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury Relic, and Mantra of Strength Litany.

7 Stength 8 AP-2 Damage 4 attacks, and every unmodified 6 to wound adds a Mortal Wound. All for 77 points.

Add a Librarian with Might of heroes for 8 Strength 9 attacks

If im reading it right it seems the re roll 1's only applies to a single shot per heavy weapon, still a great buff but wont completely replace captains.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I hate to say it but this looks nasty and the last roumer was apparently saying Imperial Fists are bordeline broken.
If their isn't some.unseen downside to Iron hands I can see a lot of calls for marine nerfs coming very soon and getting more vocal when imperial fists drop if they truely are even more over powered than iron hands are already starting to look.

I think from most sources I have seen Ironhand's is considered to be the strongest. They are exceptionally broken though compared to the other 2 armies we have seen rules for. Even if Crimson fists is slightly less broken they are still one of the best options in all of the game.

Though - is it really fair to compare 8th edition codex to 9th edition codex?

I dont think anyone would argue that Iron Hands where possibly the worst way to play codex 1.0?

The issue appears to be GW doing classic GW and giving the worst Chapter tactic a massive buff to now be essentially a 3 in 1 combo trait.
They then as Iron hands were the posterboys for 1.0 codex marines suck, have given them a very good super trait aswell as what lloks like some tasty relics psychic powers and strategums.
So the worst now becomes the new OP, classic over compensation GW at work.

Hi guys, great read so far I got a question which i can't find an answer to, if I use the Grey Shield WL trait to gain a second chapter tactic for my crusader units for 1 turn, will I also gain access to chapter specifiy stratagems durin that turn? Thanks and much appreciated!

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO Iron Hands is.. sisutational. they're great if you wanna run tank heavy, but not so great otherwise. and Ultramarines might be, arguably better, if your tanks are repulsor executioners.

How exactly? Sure the if you are running a las repulsor you would probably be better in the tactical doctrine on that unit though the AP-4 can be amazing - Even AP-5 on an executioner is hilarious when hunting 3+ tanks in cover without invunes. Or broadsides in cover. Aside from the AP bonus you are giving up 6+ FNP (so basically 3 more additional wounds) overwatch on 5+ and half damage for degradation.

For every benifit you get for being ultramarines in tactical there is a trade off of durability which in the end is not even fair.
Ultras wait for their bonus to apply turn 2 for most their units. The bonus is for inferior weapons. Their chapter tactic sucks in comparison. There is nothing situational about ironhands. Who do you think wins the matchup between Ironhands stalkers vs intercessors with bolt rifle in tactical doctrine?

Yeah, well, just don't let the UM touch anything that doesn't fly, as it won't be shooting next turn. Fall-back and shoot is dope, imo.

Khornatedemon wrote:
If im reading it right it seems the re roll 1's only applies to a single shot per heavy weapon, still a great buff but wont completely replace captains.

You are not.

FAQ has already clarified "when resolving an attack" as applying to every individual attack.

The 2 things with this (and my Sons of Medusa) are:

1) The Captain is still needed for non-heavy weapons, like Plasma Incinerators.

and

2) I might field Heavy Plasma Incinerators now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO Iron Hands is.. sisutational. they're great if you wanna run tank heavy, but not so great otherwise. and Ultramarines might be, arguably better, if your tanks are repulsor executioners.

How exactly? Sure the if you are running a las repulsor you would probably be better in the tactical doctrine on that unit though the AP-4 can be amazing - Even AP-5 on an executioner is hilarious when hunting 3+ tanks in cover without invunes. Or broadsides in cover. Aside from the AP bonus you are giving up 6+ FNP (so basically 3 more additional wounds) overwatch on 5+ and half damage for degradation.

For every benifit you get for being ultramarines in tactical there is a trade off of durability which in the end is not even fair.
Ultras wait for their bonus to apply turn 2 for most their units. The bonus is for inferior weapons. Their chapter tactic sucks in comparison. There is nothing situational about ironhands. Who do you think wins the matchup between Ironhands stalkers vs intercessors with bolt rifle in tactical doctrine?

Yeah, well, just don't let the UM touch anything that doesn't fly, as it won't be shooting next turn. Fall-back and shoot is dope, imo.

Ya, tagging units in melee is a big deal at high level play.

Absolutely, one of the most underrated game play mechanics, and one of the big reasons chaos daemons and genestealers are so spectacular. Ultramarines nix that in a big way -- Iron Hands new toys are fantastic, but fall back and shoot can be game rescuing if you don't let them take a hostage.

I think we might actually see macro plasma Redemptor dreads with IH

Nearly mathematically identical to twin Las (better ap at the cost of a bit of range) but with all the downsides handled. Guaranteed reroll 1s, degradation doesn't impact the unit as much, and movement doesn't cause a penalty any longer. Might be a valid source of AT now.

So Iron Hands basically got POTMS on all their units. Seems rather fluffy to me, I like it.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
If im reading it right it seems the re roll 1's only applies to a single shot per heavy weapon, still a great buff but wont completely replace captains.

You are not.

FAQ has already clarified "when resolving an attack" as applying to every individual attack.

The 2 things with this (and my Sons of Medusa) are:

1) The Captain is still needed for non-heavy weapons, like Plasma Incinerators.

and

2) I might field Heavy Plasma Incinerators now.

Ah thank you, just getting back into the game (havent played since 6th) and going through all the faqs still

Sterling191 wrote:

bort wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.

The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.

All the "you get access to a relic of your primogenitors" does is allow you access to one (1) relic from your founding chapter. It does not increase the number of relics you're allowed to take in a game. IOW, if you want a single relic, pay 1 CP to make it a named chapter relic. If you want a named chapter relic on top of a free generic one, you'll need to spend 2 CP.

Well foop. Yeah, the wording of that strat is terrible.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Have we discussed the concept of a "Smash Chaplain" yet?

Primaris Chaplain, Warlord with Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury Relic, and Mantra of Strength Litany.

7 Stength 8 AP-2 Damage 4 attacks, and every unmodified 6 to wound adds a Mortal Wound. All for 77 points.

Add a Librarian with Might of heroes for 8 Strength 9 attacks

Yes. The verdict was that while a Primaris chaplain can hit very hard, the fact that you can only footslog him if you want to make use of his litanies makes him unviable. Only way to field a smashplain is an oldmarine one with jump pack and start him on the board. And even then the good old smash captain does his job a lot more reliably. In other words, only field the smashplain if you do not mind fielding something suboptimal. The chaplain is still first and foremost a support character that happens to be able to hold his own in a scrap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bryten wrote:
Hi guys, great read so far I got a question which i can't find an answer to, if I use the Grey Shield WL trait to gain a second chapter tactic for my crusader units for 1 turn, will I also gain access to chapter specifiy stratagems durin that turn? Thanks and much appreciated!

No, because you do not have the keyword of the chapter that you gain the chapter tactic from. Therefore you do not gain access to their stratagems (nor other things like super-doctrines).

Pandabeer wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Have we discussed the concept of a "Smash Chaplain" yet?

Primaris Chaplain, Warlord with Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury Relic, and Mantra of Strength Litany.

7 Stength 8 AP-2 Damage 4 attacks, and every unmodified 6 to wound adds a Mortal Wound. All for 77 points.

Add a Librarian with Might of heroes for 8 Strength 9 attacks

Yes. The verdict was that while a Primaris chaplain can hit very hard, the fact that you can only footslog him if you want to make use of his litanies makes him unviable. Only way to field a smashplain is an oldmarine one with jump pack and start him on the board. And even then the good old smash captain does his job a lot more reliably. In other words, only field the smashplain if you do not mind fielding something suboptimal. The chaplain is still first and foremost a support character that happens to be able to hold his own in a scrap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bryten wrote:
Hi guys, great read so far I got a question which i can't find an answer to, if I use the Grey Shield WL trait to gain a second chapter tactic for my crusader units for 1 turn, will I also gain access to chapter specifiy stratagems durin that turn? Thanks and much appreciated!

No, because you do not have the keyword of the chapter that you gain the chapter tactic from. Therefore you do not gain access to their stratagems (nor other things like super-doctrines).

Thanks for the reply, below is the wording of the second paragraph. It is a bit unclear to me, do you still think chapter specific stratagems are not possible? They gain the keyword, rules are however implying that it is for the purpose of resolving the new chapter tactic. Please let me know what you think.

"Until the start of your next turn, friendly Indomitus Crusaders gain the benefit of that chapter tactic in addition to any others they already have. They are considered to have the keyword of that chapter tactic belongs to for the purpose of resolving that chapter tactic."

Bryten wrote:

"Until the start of your next turn, friendly Indomitus Crusaders gain the benefit of that chapter tactic in addition to any others they already have. They are considered to have the keyword of that chapter tactic belongs to for the purpose of resolving that chapter tactic."

Emphasis mine. They dont have the keyword. They are considered to have it solely so they benefit from the bonus chapter tactic. You do not gain access to new stratagems as a result, nor can they be targeted by stratagems locked to the keyword of the second chapter.

Bryten: not implied, specifically stated. The unit is only considered to have the keyword for the purposes of resolving the chapter tactic.

Pandabeer: I had thought of that issue and the Jump Chaplain normie marine being a better choice. He only loses 1A and 1W, but costs more. Still viable in some aspects.

I had thought a way around it would be an Impulsor, but the timing on litanies throws that out.

Could still be used like the old IC rules: impulsor him + 5 man squad nearish enemy lines Turn 1 and get out, bury him in the unit, Turn 2 litany and smash.

But really he would only be good at wrecking enemy characters and big things(potentially 1-assault a knight Dominus), damage is mostly wasted on enemy heavy infantry.

I think everyone needs to step back from the ledge about the iron hands. They have a strong buff. They can move and shoot heavy weapons and reroll 1s on heavy weapons.

Very good, very strong, but they still die slightly slower than other marines.

If you go very vehicle heavy you will not have that much screening and be susceptible to getting charged and wrapped in combat. It’s not that difficult to take a primaris unit hostage. You can use infiltrators but they’re pricy and the more you take the less guns you’re going to have. Take a deep breath and look at the army as a whole. They make expensive units better but to maximize their trait they have to take expensive units which means their mode count won’t be very high.

demontalons wrote:
I think everyone needs to step back from the ledge about the iron hands. They have a strong buff. They can move and shoot heavy weapons and reroll 1s on heavy weapons.

Very good, very strong, but they still die slightly slower than other marines.

If you go very vehicle heavy you will not have that much screening and be susceptible to getting charged and wrapped in combat. It’s not that difficult to take a primaris unit hostage. You can use infiltrators but they’re pricy and the more you take the less guns you’re going to have. Take a deep breath and look at the army as a whole. They make expensive units better but to maximize their trait they have to take expensive units which means their mode count won’t be very high.

for that reason i think IH flyers are a beast, PotMS , resilience , can be wrapped in combat

Iron Hands are looking like a really solid choice, and the fact that their bonus doctrine rules apply from turn 1 is a huge boost. I liked the look of Ultramarines in the first instance due to the benefits they would get on bolter discipline, but only taking effect from turn 2 at the earliest was a real downside.

Some of the biggest winners for Iron Hands from what we know already are:

- Vehicles of all stripes when supported by the Ironstone relic, but especially Dreadnoughts for the sheer resilience when combined with the half damage stratagem (the exact nature of the interaction might need to be clarified, but I would expect that it's /2 then -1). The Leviathan in particular is going to be a very tough prospect to remove.

- Any vehicles without PotMS, but some of the most interesting are the smaller flyers which can now bring their full weight to bear. Stormhawks will be bringing down Eldar flyers left right and centre with their rr1s combined with the devastator doctrine -1ap, whilst remaining effective for longer in dogfights due to their natural Iron Hands resilience. The Stormtalon could now be a pretty good character sniper as well, though I'm very hyped on Eliminators so they might not find their way into my list.

- Dreadnoughts (again) due to the ability to move and shoot without penalty. Though it applies to all units, it's especially useful for dreadnoughts who are often stuck between wanting to stand still to use their weapons properly, and moving to get close enough to use their fist. Now you don't have to choose!

- Grav devastator squads got a huge boost from the main codex with the points drop and drop pod rules, but being able to ignore the penalty for moving and built in rr1s for their weapons just bumps them up even further! Laugh as you drop them in, wipe out something big, and then kill even more when they try to charge you!

- Suppressors are in a weird place, with heavy weapons but impressive maneuverability. Well, with Iron Hands, they don't have to choose between the two! I will definitely be trying these out.

Any other big winners that I've missed?

Razorbacks with assault cannons should be added to the list as well.

I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.

That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.

That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.

 DoomMouse wrote:
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

Does that mean Space Marine players will FINALLY stop complaining?