+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +

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**Pandabeer**

So, anyone seen the wording of the White Scars Encircle stratagem? It says White Scars UNIT... which means that RAW you can outflank a Leviathan Dreadnought or a Spartan. I suppose that this is going to be FAQ'ed to be just like the Space Wolves version that only allows infantry to use this stratagem though.

**Pandabeer**

Crimson wrote:
Moebius5 wrote:
I have just had a look at the new codex and the doctrines. If I want to run a detachment Royal 32 or an auxiliary detachment with one vindicare Assassin, does the rest of the army loses the doctrines?

Unfortunately yes.

I'm quite happy with that to be honest, you now finally get a reward for staying pure without removing a viable possibility for souping.

**Pandabeer**

Mandragola wrote:
That’s interesting about the vindicators. I was thinking they look like a pretty durable unit for their price, with quite a lot of T8 wounds. Now they always get d6 shots they’re kind of like an IK thermal cannon for a small fraction of the cost.

Even better IMO. It's S10 compared to the Thermal Cannons' S9 and it's a flat D3 instead of Dd6 which means more reliability,.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
I won't have a codex until the 26th so... Is the tremor shell stratagem still here ?

Yes.

**Pandabeer**

p5freak wrote:
Xirax wrote:
Captain with jump pack, teeth of terra, storm shield and hero of the chapter (the imperium's sword) feels tasty for it's points. 9 attacks on rerollable charges. S6 ap -2 D2. Anyone used one yet?

Why would you waste his BS 2+ by not giving him a ranged weapon ? You need to get within 1" of enemy models to be able to do something, fail your charge and you do nothing. Why not shoot right away with combi plasma or combi melta, after deepstriking, and charge later ?

There's a pretty big difference in survivability between a 3++ and 4++. Also, you can easily get an 8" rerollable charge with successor tactics and Imperiums' Sword. Even better when you're White Scars successor and add Fierce Rivalries for a nearly guaranteed charge out of DS, rendering your ranged weapon moot.

Anyhow, I'm going to try out a White Scars slashcaptain soon-ish. Mastercrafted Lightning Claw, SS, JP, Imperiums' Sword and Chogorian Storm. Gives 7-9 S5 AP -2 D2 attacks that reroll hits and wounds on the charge, upped to AP-3 D3 from T3 onwards. All for 109 points if I'm not mistaken.

**Pandabeer**

Maxamato wrote:
This Captian should have 8-10 attacks if he charges.
4 Profile
1 Pair of Claws
1 from WL
1 Shock Attack
D3 second WL.
Sounds worth for 103 points.

No, I'm opting for a Storm Shield instead of a second claw because the second claw can't be mastercrafted and 3++ is so much better than 4++ IMO.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

demontalons wrote:
Give him the additional warlord trait to wound monsters and vehicle +1

Not sure about that, I feel that +1 to wound biggies isn't worth loosing on average 2A on the charge over (and with WS tactics he can charge every turn).

**Pandabeer**

p5freak wrote:
You guys should talk to BA players who have failed a re-rolled 9" charge with 3D6. I am one of them.

Well, there's also a 3.5% chance you'll fluke your melta-shot or blow yourself up when you overcharge plasma. Thing is, in a dice game you can't guarantee anything. Hell, a short while ago I managed to roll 5 1s for the attack rolls for my Greater Possessed, a chance of a little more than 1/8000.

Only thing you can do is take what works best on average, and I feel I will on average be better served by a 3++ than a ranged attack when I have an about 85% chance to make the charge from DS.

**Pandabeer**

Rogerio134134 wrote:
DanielFM wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.

Lol I have been recently and tbh I've done alright I just get excited when I see shiny new books!!

I have another question however.. Can successor chapters just use their parent chapters rules and relics etc? Say can novamarines just be Ultramarines or Brazen Claws be iron hands without having to use the "inheritors of the primarch" trait?

Yes, just make it clear before the game starts to avoid confusion. Personally I'm creating a custom chapter that are supposed to be expert hunters and both White Scars and Raven Guard fluff/ rules can work for that so I'm getting both and will play with either depending on what I feel like. Also going to get Primaris Shrike so while fluffwise he'll be from my own chapter I will have to use "pure" Raven Guard rules in order to not have an illegal list.

**Pandabeer**

bort wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.

The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.

As to the running Novamarines as whatever, I should hope no opponent would care. Known second foundings get left in a weird area where as written it seems you’re expected to use the watered down UM rules, just cause you liked the color which is silly. Why take a first founding chapter tactic and then cut yourself out the special chars and relics?

Which is exactly why I will be running definitely-not-Shrike for my definitely-not-Raven Guard

**Pandabeer**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Have we discussed the concept of a "Smash Chaplain" yet?

Primaris Chaplain, Warlord with Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury Relic, and Mantra of Strength Litany.

7 Stength 8 AP-2 Damage 4 attacks, and every unmodified 6 to wound adds a Mortal Wound. All for 77 points.

Add a Librarian with Might of heroes for 8 Strength 9 attacks

Yes. The verdict was that while a Primaris chaplain can hit very hard, the fact that you can only footslog him if you want to make use of his litanies makes him unviable. Only way to field a smashplain is an oldmarine one with jump pack and start him on the board. And even then the good old smash captain does his job a lot more reliably. In other words, only field the smashplain if you do not mind fielding something suboptimal. The chaplain is still first and foremost a support character that happens to be able to hold his own in a scrap.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bryten wrote:
Hi guys, great read so far I got a question which i can't find an answer to, if I use the Grey Shield WL trait to gain a second chapter tactic for my crusader units for 1 turn, will I also gain access to chapter specifiy stratagems durin that turn? Thanks and much appreciated!

No, because you do not have the keyword of the chapter that you gain the chapter tactic from. Therefore you do not gain access to their stratagems (nor other things like super-doctrines).

**Pandabeer**

Robtype0 wrote:
Raven Guard preview is up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/10/preview-sons-of-coraxgw-homepage-post-4/

Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.

There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.

Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic

Eliminators, come to papa...

edit: I still hope there's some kind of way to increase charge distance, even with rerolls a 9" charge is still only ~50% chance. Don't want to waste your precious smashcaptain you also just used a librarian for to port him over. Well, not that super-Eliminators aren't good enough already...

**Pandabeer**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
Robtype0 wrote:
Raven Guard preview is up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/10/preview-sons-of-coraxgw-homepage-post-4/

Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.

There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.

Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

Good thing that in our FLGS we always play with tons of scalable ruins so I can just take the high ground and probably spot him anyway

**Pandabeer**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

Do not underestimate what massed 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound 4+/5+ mortal wound causing shots can do to a marine infantry defensive statline.

Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.

Executioner rounds. Well, I wouldn't be surprised to find a stratagem or somesuch in the supplement that will boost those as well.

**Pandabeer**

Xenomancers wrote:
Bryten wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
DoomMouse wrote:
I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.

That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.

Gman buff?

A free (1 CP) aura that doubles the survivability of a bunch of vehcials is more OP than a 400 point buff that lets you reroll all hits and wounds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JNAProductions wrote:
DoomMouse wrote:
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.
Does that mean Space Marine players will FINALLY stop complaining?

Not seeing anyone really complain about space marines being weak anymore. In fact most marine players are looking at this and see the end of the game being near.
There are 3 possibilities.
Marines will be heavily nerfed or
All the following codex will be much better than this
40k as a whole becomes a laughing stock like the end of 7th edition and people just stop playing.

I hope the first really. And a bit of the second in that I feel most other factions should also be given bonuses if they stay mono-codex or even mono-subfaction. And with nerfs I mean a bunch of point cost increases. I personally love it that I can now play marines like they are portrayed in the fluff. Super powerful, but few in number. Although at their current pricing you might be able to just field too many of them so if there are going to be nerfs they should be made more expensive so you can put less models on the table (instead of the previous trend of price drops and marines starting to feel like guardsmen +1). That is,. IF they prove to be OP (it certainly looks that way but there's no way to say for sure until we see results). Howeverm, don't forget their complete inability to soup if they want their best stuff, that is quite a heavy counterweight in a meta that up till now is heavily dominated by souped armies.

**Pandabeer**

Xenomancers wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
ItsPug wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Robtype0 wrote:
Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.
They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.

Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.
Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.

In the rules for taking relics in codex space marines, also how are they making vehicles into characters in the first place?
They have a stratagem to do it we have learned. Vehicles not being able to take relics is stupid. Knights can take relics. It's actually called a relic leviathan and you can give it forge world relics.

At this point that is nothing more than a rumor.

**Pandabeer**

DoomMouse wrote:
Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.

But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1

Personally I love it. It's fluffy and powerful at the same time without being overbearing. It will really force your opponent to adapt his playstyle unless he wants to lose all his most important units in no time at all. Going to be a lot of fun playing cat and mouse with my opponent while he tries to hide his characters and get rid of my Eliminators.

**Pandabeer**

DoomMouse wrote:
I think that they made a mistake not letting you choose which doctrine to start in. (It could even be made into a stratagem perhaps?)

It just makes white scars so much worse (the game could easily already be decided by turn 3, and assault armies really don't need more obstacles). The raven guard doctrine could be interesting if it started turn 1, but I totally don't see the point if you have to wait for it.

So far iron hands look like the clear winner, with some UM builds being good (particularly aggressors!). The ultramarine buff is strong enough that it could be worth waiting a turn for if you built around it.

I don't know. Yes, it would certainly be fantastic if White Scars could start off in tactical doctrine, remove screens with a hail of improved bolter fire, then switch to assault doctrine T2 for a massive charge with bikers and deepstrikers. On the other hand, that might be too powerful as well. I am personally of the opinion that RG and WS have powerful super-doctrines without being too much but Iron Hands certainly look a little overpowered at the moment, with UM being at the border between just strong and OP.

**Pandabeer**

bmsattler wrote:
For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.

You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.

**Pandabeer**

Can't wait till Shrikes' preview tomorrow, curious what that gun of his does, how good he is in melee and whether he'll have any special interaction with Phobos units. And hopefully he'll keep his Winged Deliverance ability.

**Pandabeer**

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, but he is just shrike with an extra attack, wound, and 2" movement. Oh and he has a sniper pistol. Very underwhelming vs what the iron father can add to your force. There isnt anything the primaris shrike can do that non primaris couldnt, so he isnt andding anything new really to the army.

Don't get me wrong, i am not complaining about shrike as i have always enjoyed him. Its just gw keeps showing awsome thing day 1, day 2 not so much, day 3 awsome, day 4 not so much. They should have done it the other way to drum up excitement instead they end on a low note and makes me go mmmmm.

That sniper pistol can easily one-shot a Commissar or Ethereal from deepstrike though. 2+ rerollable to hit and 2+ to wound in tactical doctrine. But no, he isn't as original as the Iron Father. But if GW changed Shrike too much you'd hear no end of complaints about that.

**Pandabeer**

You can't have duplicate warlord traits.

**Pandabeer**

p5freak wrote:
Flavius Infernus wrote:
I like TH/SS terminators, but how many CP is a smashcaptain?

For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.

A true BA smashcaptain has angels wings, TH, SS. 2CP for a 3D6 charge, 1CP for red rampage (+d3 attacks), 3CP for honor the chapter at the end of the fight phase, or 2CP to fight again should he die. Very CP hungry, but only 124 pts. Only one model, so very little space needed. And with JP he can charge across screens as if they werent there.

You forgot about the Black Rage stratagem.

**Pandabeer**

bananathug wrote:
One turn only for that relic actually makes a lot of sense. Use it turn 1 so you don't get blown off the board but you are not forever invulnerable.

If only GW would come down to this cesspit every once in a while to discover a hidden gem among the trash.

UM work well for levis (no penalty for moving, fall back and still shoot, re-roll wounds vs 1 target for them is big).
I like them as DW (if only we had a way to get rid of the movement penalty). Deepstriking, re-roll 1's to wound and the ability to get +1 to wound (big if you are s7).
Work well as space wolves (ability to ignore all negs to hit at BS 2+, yes please).
Heck, deepstriking them as WS (can white scars DS dreads?) works really good too.

Problem with the rest of these lists is the lack of armor saturation. With IH you are running the repulsor/executioner so you are fielding more t8 units than most armies can deal with and now your enemy actually has to make bad choices about what to shoot and the Levi is the worst choice out of several bad choices.

Yes, White Scars can outflank everything that has the White Scars keyword, from Scouts to Mastodons and Thunderhawks. I was honestly surprised it didn't get FAQ'ed to be Infantry and Bikers only. Still need to try it on my Relic Contemptor, might even be worth slapping an extra Cyclone Missile Launcher on it to take maximum advantage of the guaranteed round of shooting.

**Pandabeer**

Nevelon wrote:
No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Just been reading my current codex again and for some reason I’d never read the grapnal launcher rules properly for Reivers. From what I can tell, if the whole unit has the launchers they basically have “Strategic Reinforcement” already for free (as in no CP cost) as in they can arrive from any table edge. Or am I reading that wrong?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m also liking the new Primaris Chaplain on bike. A good way to get litanies further up field fast and I’m wondering if he’ll get the “devastating charge” rule that the Outriders got? If so give him the relic crozaius and Imperiums sword warlord trait and have fun with the Outriders.

Better than the new rule, as it’s any table edge when they show up.

Which doesn’t solve the reivers main problem of not actually doing much when they show up for their points. They have two nice move/deploy options (which they have to pay extra for) but all they bring are a few S4, no AP attacks. Which marines are not lacking for ways to get.

I’m really liking the look of the chaplain. As long as his points are OK, he could see a bit of table time. Assuming he’s not priced crazy from a $$ POV. With what they ask for primaris characters on foot, who knows what heights they will reach for a bike one.

My guesstimate is €40. Which is indeed expensive but it's not something I'd be unwilling to pay. Model looks gorgeous and if the Outrider rules are anything to go by he'll be a lightning fast, durable beatstick with a diverse selection of aura's. A White Scars one that's promoted to a Master of Sanctity with double Warlord Traits and Adamantium Mantle for extra beefiness or Benediction of Fury for extra choppiness looks especially tasty. Or a Space Wolves one with Saga of the Hunter using Touch of the Wild on the charge.

**Pandabeer**

Galef wrote:
I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).

That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though

**Pandabeer**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
Galef wrote:
I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).

That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though

Are you meaning 8 total, including the 4 Lastalon shots?

because it only has 2 Multimeltas.

Yes, I mean including the Lastalons. Would be twice the AT firepower of a Land Raider or LasPred within 24"

Although it'd need to position very aggressively to utilize that firepower and the points per wound cost will likely be quite high making it a glass cannon.