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30" guns is pretty much their reason to exist.

Have you seen the leaked Firestrike profile?
Twin Accelerator Autocannon is Heavy 6 but AP -1.

It could be speculated that Suppressors will get their Accelerator Autocannons changed to Heavy 3 AP-1.

I run some numbers and, without the change, the Firestrike makes them obsolete (minus the gained mobility, but what use is that on a -1 to shoot Heavy weapons squad?). With the change, Suppressors would be very powerful, and absolutely bonkers under Imperial Fists doctrine.

I don't know what I want lol

The mario kart is pretty ugly, better run some good looking suppressors!

Spado wrote:
The mario kart is pretty ugly, better run some good looking suppressors!

A little converting will fix the looks issues to some degree. The rules on the other hand, jesus. Top tier firepower, and solid survivabilitiy for their points.

On an unrelated note....are grav devastators as obscenely insane as I think?

Signum + armored Cherub. 4 grav cannons in a pod. Throw in Gravitic Amplification strat.

With the exception of a larger titan or 25+ man unit, is there anything they cannot erase on the drop? I had a squad drop on me this weekend and cook my 3 eradicators and 10 wounds off of my predator with mediocre rolls. Pretty sure the math says they can cook a Repulsor on the drop turn.

Basically an auto-include in Iron-hands and probably in Imperial fists and Ultramarines right?

Yes grav devs are really good. They are super squishy though.

edit: If the multimelta changes get applied to all multimeltas, attack bikes and land speeders seem reasonable units again.
Ex: 55pts for a MM attack bike vs 40 pts for an Eradicator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah, grav devs with the strat put even eradicators or multimelta bikes to shame, but with like 1/3 the survivability.

bort wrote:
edit: If the multimelta changes get applied to all multimeltas, attack bikes and land speeders seem reasonable units again.
Ex: 55pts for a MM attack bike vs 40 pts for an Eradicator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah, grav devs with the strat put even eradicators or multimelta bikes to shame, but with like 1/3 the survivability.

Survivability is only really a concern if they have something left to strike back with. Erasing double their points cost when they drop means IDGAF if they are immediately destroyed afterwards. Especially when they are sub-200 points WITH the pod.

Every multi-melta platform will have to be re-evaluated if the MM changes are space marine codex wide. Tacticals having a 2 shot heavy weapon get interesting. Attack bikes, dreadnoughts, speeders, devastators....god, imagine 8 close range MM shots into something for sub-200 points? Lots to consider.

I feel like tossing a 5 pack of MM Devs in with the Grav Devs is going to be a play for awhile.

I'd hope the 2shot MM changes go gamewide. That gun has been sad for so long and for having multi in the name, it was always weird to only get 1 shot. The wound part of the change would be cool too, but not as game changing if that got left on primaris only because...GW reasons.

I'm waffling on the MM Dev idea. I get the thought, you want to fill the pod with something else as you can't use the grav strat twice in the same turn. But that's taking a -1 to hit on your unit that will die after it fires once.

Which back to the survivability point, it's true that in any case you can assume the unit will die after it torches something. But, the 120pt devs will die to anything firing at them, the 120pt eradicators require a modest commitment to remove. That's protecting the rest of your army a little bit.

I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).

bort wrote:
But that's taking a -1 to hit on your unit that will die after it fires once.

Thats fair, but there are ways to work around that. One of which is tied to a +1 to wound superdoctrine.

Spado wrote:The mario kart is pretty ugly, better run some good looking suppressors!

Oh, I was talking about the Firestrike turret. It does the same as Suppressors, but cheaper. Only if Suppressors gun doesn't get changed, though.
I also kind of dislike the kart.

Blood Hawk wrote:Yes grav devs are really good. They are super squishy though.

And they are squats. No amount of overpowered shooting would convince me to field the stunted, disproportionate Oldmarines.
How I wish they were at least in a separate codex (if not phased out) so they don't mess with the balance of Primaris units.

If the land raider achilles avoids legends it'll be one hell of a brutal platform with new meltas, just enough capacity for some devestators inside too.

Can one still make a decent list without using any primaris models?

Captain on Bike, an LT with a Jump Pack, Tac Squads in Razorbacks (more adequate than good), could drop Termies (remains to be seen if they are any good, but i've seen a few people excited about them) in, Long Range Centurions actually dropped in points apparently, Grav Devs in Pods, Bikes are generally a little bit better at shooting than Outriders (not as tanky, though). Leviathans and Contemptors (Relic or Morti) are still good.

Mobility is key this edition, as you have to get on objectives then use actions on them a lot of the time. We'll see how it shakes out as time goes on.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Can one still make a decent list without using any primaris models?

Absolutely, I don't use Primaris at all and have been having pretty good success - admittedly the sample size is still pretty low (4 TTS games)

Some units you should absolutely recheck are

Ironclads - With a hurricane bolters and chainfist/melta they threaten pretty much any target. Being able to fire the hurricane bolter into CC mitigates hordes locking it down, the flat 4D chainfist makes the area inhospitable to most large targets as well. The major weakness - speed - is mitigated by the fact that you can place it so that your opponent MUST deal with it or cede the objective.

Basic terminators may also make a good comeback this edition - They're exceptional multi-role units with good horde clear and a nasty CC punch. They're durable enough that your opponent will have to dedicate non-negligible fire to kill them, especially if they're in cover.

Anything that can rock a Multi-Melta - If the MM rules the ATV datasheet is using was propagated to all MM, then anything that can mount them will be carrying a significantly nastier punch.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Can one still make a decent list without using any primaris models?

A Quick FB list that can capture and hold Primaries, and meet most secondary options:

++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Iron Hands) [90 PL, 9CP, 1,999pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP [-3CP]

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 88pts]: Power sword, Storm bolter

Chaplain [4 PL, 80pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, Bolt pistol, Litany of Hate, Medusan Furore

Lieutenants [10 PL, 130pts]
. Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 185pts]
. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 185pts]
. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 185pts]
. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [5 PL, 130pts]: Multi-melta
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Heavy Flamer: Heavy flamer

Dreadnought [5 PL, 113pts]: Assault cannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [6 PL, 125pts]
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-grav
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 350pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Hurricane Bolters, Typhoon missile launcher

+ Dedicated Transport +

Drop Pod [4 PL, 68pts]: Storm bolter

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Twin lascannon

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Twin lascannon

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Twin lascannon

++ Total: [90 PL, 9CP, 1,999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 Galef wrote:
I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).

That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though

Pandabeer wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).

That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though

Are you meaning 8 total, including the 4 Lastalon shots?

because it only has 2 Multimeltas.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).

That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though

Are you meaning 8 total, including the 4 Lastalon shots?

because it only has 2 Multimeltas.

Yes, I mean including the Lastalons. Would be twice the AT firepower of a Land Raider or LasPred within 24" Although it'd need to position very aggressively to utilize that firepower and the points per wound cost will likely be quite high making it a glass cannon.

Pandabeer wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I do have my fingers crossed that MMs get the 2 shot profile on all platforms. It's the only reason for it to be 5ppm more than a Lascannon that has more range and higher strength (only relevant vs T8, but still).

That would mean the Gladiator Valiant gets 8 shots. That's a bloody hell of a lot of firepower even if it has to get within 24" to do anything. I'm starting to dread it's pricetag though

Are you meaning 8 total, including the 4 Lastalon shots?

because it only has 2 Multimeltas.

Yes, I mean including the Lastalons. Would be twice the AT firepower of a Land Raider or LasPred within 24" Although it'd need to position very aggressively to utilize that firepower and the points per wound cost will likely be quite high making it a glass cannon.

Random napkin math using the Impulsor as a baseline puts it at 210 points to the Predator's 170, which coincidentally is exactly what the Gladiator Valiant without sponsons would cost.

Started playing SM at the end of 8th with IH although I'm not tied to them they were just the hottness at the time. Want to try sticking with SM in 9th too. At the end of 8th I started working on a drop podding dev squad. Trying to figure out what all the tricks are around them though. Can I get some advice on how to configure them for maximum damage? I only bought one box so far wasn't sure if having two squads was optimal based on what characters I would need to add in, etc also have a couple of drop pods already. Not interested in building a list around them just thinking I like the option. Also don't really care what faction I can always adjust with an additional detachment.

 necron99 wrote:
Started playing SM at the end of 8th with IH although I'm not tied to them they were just the hottness at the time. Want to try sticking with SM in 9th too. At the end of 8th I started working on a drop podding dev squad. Trying to figure out what all the tricks are around them though. Can I get some advice on how to configure them for maximum damage? I only bought one box so far wasn't sure if having two squads was optimal based on what characters I would need to add in, etc also have a couple of drop pods already. Not interested in building a list around them just thinking I like the option. Also don't really care what faction I can always adjust with an additional detachment.

2 boxes and a Tac squad box are always a good Idea: Tac squad box is bodies for all the Weapons, most of which you get 2.

Next up Is the idea of a fairly sacrificial Drop pod squad of Grav canoon Devs that you use Gravitic Amplification strat on(reroll to-wound, and reroll Damage).

After that we also have the Multi-melta sacrificial Drop pod squad(assuming all MM get 2shots and D6+2 damage @ half range).

Chapter does not matter very much, other than Imp Fists with Heavy Bolters, or Sallies with MM. Grav/MM drop units do not need Dev Doctrine(Bonus AP), but IH move-and-fire w/o penalty does help Drop-devs accuracy; but it is almost better with Plasma cannons Overcharging on First turn(Both ignores move-and-fire, and rerolls 1 to hit).

Non-drop-pod Devs are still a good "firebase" core for any chapter army with lascannon, missile Launcher, and/or Heavy bolter. Having a few of all of these is good for your normal tax squads as well; but then, I am a more shooty marine player.