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DanielFM wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.

Lol I have been recently and tbh I've done alright I just get excited when I see shiny new books!!

I have another question however.. Can successor chapters just use their parent chapters rules and relics etc? Say can novamarines just be Ultramarines or Brazen Claws be iron hands without having to use the "inheritors of the primarch" trait?

Rogerio134134 wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.

Lol I have been recently and tbh I've done alright I just get excited when I see shiny new books!!

I have another question however.. Can successor chapters just use their parent chapters rules and relics etc? Say can novamarines just be Ultramarines or Brazen Claws be iron hands without having to use the "inheritors of the primarch" trait?

Yes, just make it clear before the game starts to avoid confusion. Personally I'm creating a custom chapter that are supposed to be expert hunters and both White Scars and Raven Guard fluff/ rules can work for that so I'm getting both and will play with either depending on what I feel like. Also going to get Primaris Shrike so while fluffwise he'll be from my own chapter I will have to use "pure" Raven Guard rules in order to not have an illegal list.

Can anyone offer me some advice on what to get next. I basically have DI and a couple extra things, about 1300pts currently. Custom chapter, run as Imperial Fists atm. Want to build up to 1500/2000 pts

Primaris Captain
2xPrimaris Lieutents
Librarian in phobos
Smash Captain

Redemptor Dread
Company Ancient

2x5 Intecessors

5 Hellblasters

3 Inceptors (bolters)
3 bikes + attack bike

Main options of what to get next seem to be:
Troops - Would a second lot of Intecessors be best, or wait for Incursors to come out?
Anti-tank - Get more Hellblasters, or something else?
Get a third elite to run a vanguard detachment, another redemptor or aggressors maybe?

Open to suggestions!

I'd get a box of intercessors since you need another squad to have a Batallion.

I would then get Aggressors for sure, especially if you run Fists. If you are a fan of tanks an Executioner would be good.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
For anti tank I really think invictors and do the job with a strength 14 power fist and 5 attacks the first round of combat with ap -3 and flat 3 damage that's good!

You need to get there first. So you need something to help clean up the screening blob in addition to your arm mount HF.

What would you suggest instead? More screen clearers or some more firepower?

Rogerio134134 wrote:

I have another question however.. Can successor chapters just use their parent chapters rules and relics etc? Say can novamarines just be Ultramarines or Brazen Claws be iron hands without having to use the "inheritors of the primarch" trait?

this is a good question that deserves more discussion.

It looks like an Ultramarines successor can use the stratagems, psychic powers, half the relics, and the Scions of Guilleman ability. They can choose their own Chapter Tactics if you want. But they cannot use Calgar and the other dataslates in the supplement.

I'm doing this with my bone-colored marines. Sticking with the Fall Back and Shoot for now.

Shooter wrote:
Can anyone offer me some advice on what to get next. I basically have DI and a couple extra things, about 1300pts currently. Custom chapter, run as Imperial Fists atm. Want to build up to 1500/2000 pts

Primaris Captain
2xPrimaris Lieutents
Librarian in phobos
Smash Captain

Redemptor Dread
Company Ancient

2x5 Intecessors

5 Hellblasters

3 Inceptors (bolters)
3 bikes + attack bike

Main options of what to get next seem to be:
Troops - Would a second lot of Intecessors be best, or wait for Incursors to come out?
Anti-tank - Get more Hellblasters, or something else?
Get a third elite to run a vanguard detachment, another redemptor or aggressors maybe?

Open to suggestions!

Troops - Out of the DI box you have two squads of Bolt Rifle Intercessors. The stand-alone box would give you a 5-man with Autobolters and a 5-man with Stalkers if you want, that's more versatility for your army. (Also, look into trading for a Power Fist or two; they're pretty good on Intercessor Sergeants.) Also, if you're not set on pure Primaris Scouts are a good investment. The basic four-bolters-and-a-Heavy-Bolter box is still pretty cheap and sometimes you'll just need to shave 30 point out of your troop selections to fit something else in the list

AT - The Eliminator box is droping soon, if you're looking for AT and want to stay pure Primaris Lasfusiles are a good value. If you're not looking to stay pure Primaris and/or the Executioner is too spendy for your tastes then the Vindicator and Whirlwind are both a lot of bang for your buck (although Vindicators are better in pairs).

Suppressors aren't out as a stand-alone yet but they're also pretty good, especially if your meta isn't full of Knights and Guard.

Elites - Aggressors, full stop. Excellent unit. Again, if you're not looking for pure Primaris the regular Dreadnaught and Venerable Dreadnaught straddle the Elite and AT lines, and the Ironclad Dread is a hidden gem. Some people locally swear by Stormshield and Stormbolter Vets in a Lascannon Razorback, I personally haven't had the greatest results out of them.

Edit: Forgot one: Chaplains. They can hand out a +1 to-wound now, and on some units with a large number of low-quality shots (Aggressors, Redemptors, Centurions, etc) that can be huge.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

Crimson Fists are terrible so nobody should blame you for trying out other styles of Marines.

Thanks for the advice. I'll get a box of intercessors and some aggressors and have a think about some more AT

The Newman wrote:

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.

The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.


As to the running Novamarines as whatever, I should hope no opponent would care. Known second foundings get left in a weird area where as written it seems you’re expected to use the watered down UM rules, just cause you liked the color which is silly. Why take a first founding chapter tactic and then cut yourself out the special chars and relics?

bort wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.

The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.

All the "you get access to a relic of your primogenitors" does is allow you access to one (1) relic from your founding chapter. It does not increase the number of relics you're allowed to take in a game. IOW, if you want a single relic, pay 1 CP to make it a named chapter relic. If you want a named chapter relic on top of a free generic one, you'll need to spend 2 CP.

bort wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Spado wrote:
Has anyone tried to play with his own chapter so far? Are there any interesting combo's or the first founding chapter are simply miles ahead?

I don't want to quote the whole response string, but it was pointed out that the only real downside is losing special characters and having to pay CPs to use a chapter relic. I wanted to point out that it's the same cost to use a First Founding relic on a successor chapter as the cost take a second relic in the first place if I'm reading it right, so take your free relic for Tome of Malacore or Burning Blade or something and then pay for the one First Founding relic so you're not losing anything.

The wording is terrible and vague, but I am assuming you can’t do this to get around the relic penalty, that the cost purchase has to be in place of the free one.


As to the running Novamarines as whatever, I should hope no opponent would care. Known second foundings get left in a weird area where as written it seems you’re expected to use the watered down UM rules, just cause you liked the color which is silly. Why take a first founding chapter tactic and then cut yourself out the special chars and relics?

Which is exactly why I will be running definitely-not-Shrike for my definitely-not-Raven Guard

Ok ya, Iron Hands best chapter for flyers.

Iron Hands Supplement Preview is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/09/space-marines-preview-sons-of-ferrus-manusgw-homepage-post-3/

Geezus this is getting rough...
I don't know how any non-marines factions are supposed to keep up with this.

Ironhands are definitely going to be tough armies to crack. Flyers became more interesting (still not willing to say competitive just yet, but at least semi competitive), and dreadnaughts.... i just dont see anything wanting to deal with that kind of crazy.

I mean a redemptor at +1 to hit from blessing spell, reroll 1's and no penitly for move and shoot, +1 ap and 6+++ with counting as double wounds for wound chart from docrine and basic trait, reducing damage by 1 from the relic and by half from the stratagem, and being healed by a tech priest because of course you will have a tech priest there.... that thing is going to be unstoppable. A relic contemptor dread from fw would be even nastier! Yeah, iron hands are something to really look at how to kill....

Don't even get me back on the Leviathan terror. Every time I think they can't possibly become more broken, here we go again.

Rogerio134134 wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
How do people feel about running your marines as a different chapter? I've got a fully painted and based crimson fist army (painted to a good standard I'd say) in waiting out for the Imperial fist supplement to come out but I fancied trying out some new stuff like the iron hands book but want to use my current models!

Either that or been toying with making a home brew chapter to use as whatever I like but I'm not sure if I can even do that anymore with the successor chapter table thing.

A proud son of Dorn would play with their underdeveloped rules until the supplement arrives but it's your choice.
Most people won't care at all.

Lol I have been recently and tbh I've done alright I just get excited when I see shiny new books!!

Crimson Fists got new rules in the March 2019 issue of White Dwarf. Are those still valid?

IH drop pod grav devs mannn. No hit penalty re rolling 1's.

I wonder how the Stalker bolter intercessor compares as an Iron Hand. You will always be in dev doctrine as an Iron Hand so ap-3 d2 shot spam from intercessors could have a place against select targets. You can spread out and re-roll 1s all day and do so at no penalty. Against 2 wound targets (like other primaris) I could see it being legit. Yeah compared to an auto bolt rifle it has two less shots, but that one shot is ap-3 as opposed to ap - and 2 damage all the while being 1 point cheaper, and always re-rolling 1s.

Anyone know any math on this?

Yeah, if I do go IH, grav devs in a pod seem an auto include. Nothing matches their AT shooting with the strat for that few points. And the Leviathan is definitely going in too.

My Aggressor UM list idea might be short lived. I liked the idea of my whole army counting as standing still from round 2 onwards, but 6fnp and moving heavies from turn 1 is hard to resist. ...I think hardest decision for IH will be how hard to lean into it. All heavies is expensive and if you go light on unboosted troops then you’ll be very short on cps vs UM lists.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I wonder how the Stalker bolter intercessor compares as an Iron Hand. You will always be in dev doctrine as an Iron Hand so ap-3 d2 shot spam from intercessors could have a place against select targets. You can spread out and re-roll 1s all day and do so at no penalty. Against 2 wound targets (like other primaris) I could see it being legit. Yeah compared to an auto bolt rifle it has two less shots, but that one shot is ap-3 as opposed to ap - and 2 damage all the while being 1 point cheaper, and always re-rolling 1s.

Anyone know any math on this?

The actual math is less important than the useability IMO. Even as ultras I am staying in dev doctrine the entire game and only moving a unit to tactical doctrine for 1 CP if I really need it (like for rapid fire stratagem) As standard in iron hands I'd be running 6 stalker bolt rifle 5 mans. The AP-3 is really deadly. Even against armor. The range is really nice too.

Ironstone is an amazing relic, like seriously.

I've been playing Iron Hands since 6th and am quite happy to have some really solid rules that don't rely on single cheesy deathstars. My tank gunlines are going to be really, really solid with this.

What's the conventional wisdom on best screening units? Tac squads with a single heavy weapon seem cheap and fairly good at keeping chargers away, especially with the cost reduction.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ironstone is an amazing relic, like seriously.

3” sucks, but still, yeah that’s so good. Plus, it makes the Deredeo shield more appealing. Worst case you Ironstone the Deredeo who then can shield more stuff within 6”.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I've been playing Iron Hands since 6th and am quite happy to have some really solid rules that don't rely on single cheesy deathstars. My tank gunlines are going to be really, really solid with this.

What's the conventional wisdom on best screening units? Tac squads with a single heavy weapon seem cheap and fairly good at keeping chargers away, especially with the cost reduction.

I’m still thinking sniper Scouts. They were always good and the ability to move and reroll 1s with no aura just makes them better. But tac lascannons or something that can keep up and reroll seem good too.

bort wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ironstone is an amazing relic, like seriously.

3” sucks, but still, yeah that’s so good. Plus, it makes the Deredeo shield more appealing. Worst case you Ironstone the Deredeo who then can shield more stuff within 6”.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I've been playing Iron Hands since 6th and am quite happy to have some really solid rules that don't rely on single cheesy deathstars. My tank gunlines are going to be really, really solid with this.

What's the conventional wisdom on best screening units? Tac squads with a single heavy weapon seem cheap and fairly good at keeping chargers away, especially with the cost reduction.

I’m still thinking sniper Scouts. They were always good and the ability to move and reroll 1s with no aura just makes them better. But tac lascannons or something that can keep up and reroll seem good too.

You can just snipe the durrado and I believe that requires fully within. So in most cases the range is about the same.

I hate to say it but this looks nasty and the last roumer was apparently saying Imperial Fists are bordeline broken.
If their isn't some.unseen downside to Iron hands I can see a lot of calls for marine nerfs coming very soon and getting more vocal when imperial fists drop if they truely are even more over powered than iron hands are already starting to look.

Oh yeah, that Deredeo one is a wholly within aura..Well, still, between the stone and the strat to make 1 dread tougher I think it’s possibly worth considering instead of being an easy waste of points.

It looks like Iron Hands will be the go-to if you want to run speeders etc.

I wonder how the -1 damage relic interacts with the half-damage strat for Dreadnoughts.

Damn didnt even think of speeders, 195 pts for 18 wounds putting out 18 hb shots and moving 20" a turn with all those bonuses? Thats some speed there and effective shooting.