Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.

That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.

Gman buff?

Never! Lol.

We will when eldar players stop....

Bryten wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.

That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.

Gman buff?

A free (1 CP) aura that doubles the survivability of a bunch of vehcials is more OP than a 400 point buff that lets you reroll all hits and wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

Does that mean Space Marine players will FINALLY stop complaining?

Not seeing anyone really complain about space marines being weak anymore. In fact most marine players are looking at this and see the end of the game being near.
There are 3 possibilities.
Marines will be heavily nerfed or
All the following codex will be much better than this
40k as a whole becomes a laughing stock like the end of 7th edition and people just stop playing.

Does anyone have any ideas for strong counter charge units to clear out hordes locking our vehicles up? I guess intercessors aren't too bad, and a teeth of terra captain could do work.

My main concerns are large units of boyz, plaguebearers or GSC infantry wrapping and trapping characters, vehicles and troops.

Dreadnoughts aren't going to do much against hordes or plaguebearers with their invulns

Honestly, yes SM have lot of nice new shiny rules, but what is the real gaming data telling us. Are pure win ratio looking unbeatable, in my experience no and we must see the impact in tournament meta where we eventually stand. Sure in casual games we have a chance to win, but we are still learning our tricks. We hit harder in a wide spectrum, but still die to massed dice.

How is subtracting 1 dmg to the vehicle suddenly taking half damage? Unless your anti tank idea was overcharged plasma i don't see how this is any different than wave serpents getting -1 to dmg in the end....

 DoomMouse wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas for strong counter charge units to clear out hordes locking our vehicles up? I guess intercessors aren't too bad, and a teeth of terra captain could do work.

My main concerns are large units of boyz, plaguebearers or GSC infantry wrapping and trapping characters, vehicles and troops.

Dreadnoughts aren't going to do much against hordes or plaguebearers with their invulns

Like you said - intercessors do this quite well. If they are on your tanks though - the intercessors are likely trounced. Psykers do really well in this situation because you can smite into combat. 2 libbies that focus on damaging spells then charge in can probably clear a 10 man unit. They can also do the neat trick of allowing a tank to shoot if they smite the tank out of combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
How is subtracting 1 dmg to the vehicle suddenly taking half damage? Unless your anti tank idea was overcharged plasma i don't see how this is any different than wave serpents getting -1 to dmg in the end....

I said practically. D3 damage and dmg2 is actually the most common form of multi damage in the game. 66% of d3 will do 1 damage instead of 2 and 3 damage will just do 2 damage. Wave serpents are extremely durable LOL.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas for strong counter charge units to clear out hordes locking our vehicles up? I guess intercessors aren't too bad, and a teeth of terra captain could do work.

My main concerns are large units of boyz, plaguebearers or GSC infantry wrapping and trapping characters, vehicles and troops.

Dreadnoughts aren't going to do much against hordes or plaguebearers with their invulns

You could take an IH successor chapter with Tactical Withdrawal and just merrily fire as you drive out of melee.

Xirax wrote:
Honestly, yes SM have lot of nice new shiny rules, but what is the real gaming data telling us. Are pure win ratio looking unbeatable, in my experience no and we must see the impact in tournament meta where we eventually stand. Sure in casual games we have a chance to win, but we are still learning our tricks. We hit harder in a wide spectrum, but still die to massed dice.

Mass dice I am not really concerned with. I have massed dice and I reroll most of them too. It's quality firepower that marines can't handle - though with iron hands getting a 5++ and 6+++ where most marine units get nothing....It's just silly when you tac on a -1 damage aura too.

Ravenguard preview is out. I have to say, i like it. Its not as straight forward good as iron hands but it has potential.

Scout Snipers doing mortals on a 5+? Nice.

Knight chrs / tank commanders? Yeah, bolter fire can really hurt now....

You want to charge into me with your charecter? Careful, everyone in this army has a chance to give you a bloody nose.

Yep, kinda like it. And that spell, t1 move your chaplain up outside 9", drop pods come in next to him, troops pile out, 7" charges all around. Yeah, thats pretty good.

Raven Guard preview is up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/10/preview-sons-of-coraxgw-homepage-post-4/

Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.

There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.

Robtype0 wrote:
I liked the look of Ultramarines in the first instance due to the benefits they would get on bolter discipline, but only taking effect from turn 2 at the earliest

To be fair, they can give Tac doctrine to something turn 1 using a stratagem. 1CP as well I think. Not bad if you have a big unit of Inctercessors or Aggressors you need online turn 1.

Robtype0 wrote:
Raven Guard preview is up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/10/preview-sons-of-coraxgw-homepage-post-4/

Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.

There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.

Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...

edit: I still hope there's some kind of way to increase charge distance, even with rerolls a 9" charge is still only ~50% chance. Don't want to waste your precious smashcaptain you also just used a librarian for to port him over. Well, not that super-Eliminators aren't good enough already...

Now we gotta do all the crazy math again and factor in another +1 to hit and to wound to try and figure out the best bullet and how many bullets to fire.

(But seriously, this is probably my favorite of the super-doctrines to far).

Pandabeer wrote:

Robtype0 wrote:
Raven Guard preview is up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/10/preview-sons-of-coraxgw-homepage-post-4/

Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.

There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.

Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

Pandabeer wrote:

Robtype0 wrote:
Raven Guard preview is up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/10/preview-sons-of-coraxgw-homepage-post-4/

Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.

There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.

Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...

It takes a marines to kill a marine...

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

Do not underestimate what massed 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound 4+/5+ mortal wound causing shots can do to a marine infantry defensive statline.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Robtype0 wrote:
Raven Guard preview is up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/10/preview-sons-of-coraxgw-homepage-post-4/

Eliminators are gonna be nasty, with +2 to hit and wound on characters when guided. This will do mortals on a 4+ with Mortis rounds! The effect of this is that for 222pts, 3 units of raven guard eliminators will kill a character (or two if they're weaker) every turn without breaking a sweat, all whilst having a 1+ cover save and - 1 to hit when your opponent tries to clear them out.

There's some nice synergy with the character relocating power on someone with charge bonuses, no overwatch and some drop pod assault units pulling off t1 charges too.

Well, here's our answer to Iron Hands characters with that -1 damage taken relic Eliminators, come to papa...

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

Good thing that in our FLGS we always play with tons of scalable ruins so I can just take the high ground and probably spot him anyway

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

Do not underestimate what massed 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound 4+/5+ mortal wound causing shots can do to a marine infantry defensive statline.

Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

Do not underestimate what massed 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound 4+/5+ mortal wound causing shots can do to a marine infantry defensive statline.

Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.

Executioner rounds. Well, I wouldn't be surprised to find a stratagem or somesuch in the supplement that will boost those as well.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:


Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.

As am I. The bonus to wound makes them significantly more deadly. And they already did a good job of shredding marine characters after the S5 bump.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bryten wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I think it'd be possible to get 3 hunters and 3 stalkers within 3" range of a bike chapter master with the ironstone due to the bigger base. Their damage output isn't quite as crazy compared with some contenders, but that's 66 T8 wounds to remove that have a -1 to damage for 650pts. That'd be ludicrous to try and remove even for dedicated anti-tank fire. They can also reposition for no penalty too, so it's not like they even have to be a static firebase.

That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

It is clearly too strong. It practically doubles the survivability of most vehicles. It's worse than the gman buff.

Gman buff?

A free (1 CP) aura that doubles the survivability of a bunch of vehcials is more OP than a 400 point buff that lets you reroll all hits and wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
That ironstone relic might just about be the strongest relic in the entirety of 40K right now.

Does that mean Space Marine players will FINALLY stop complaining?

Not seeing anyone really complain about space marines being weak anymore. In fact most marine players are looking at this and see the end of the game being near.
There are 3 possibilities.
Marines will be heavily nerfed or
All the following codex will be much better than this
40k as a whole becomes a laughing stock like the end of 7th edition and people just stop playing.

I hope the first really. And a bit of the second in that I feel most other factions should also be given bonuses if they stay mono-codex or even mono-subfaction. And with nerfs I mean a bunch of point cost increases. I personally love it that I can now play marines like they are portrayed in the fluff. Super powerful, but few in number. Although at their current pricing you might be able to just field too many of them so if there are going to be nerfs they should be made more expensive so you can put less models on the table (instead of the previous trend of price drops and marines starting to feel like guardsmen +1). That is,. IF they prove to be OP (it certainly looks that way but there's no way to say for sure until we see results). Howeverm, don't forget their complete inability to soup if they want their best stuff, that is quite a heavy counterweight in a meta that up till now is heavily dominated by souped armies.

That RG one sure is interesting. Not directly army killy, but I wonder if it will change the meta by existing? You can’t aurahammer if marines in general can easily threaten weak supports and 1 chapter can basically sweep all your chars by turn 2.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:


Oh for sure if they get to use the mortis rounds. Those babies will tear up boys no mistake about it. I'm talking about the ones that are the much weaker variant that can shoot stuff even out of LOS.

As am I. The bonus to wound makes them significantly more deadly. And they already did a good job of shredding marine characters after the S5 bump.

Ehh I'm just not seeing it. Even 9 of those shots from three whole squads gets like 8 hits. Let's say 7 wounds. ap-1 to a 3+ = about 3.5 wounds which the Iron Hand has a 6+++ against. Assuming no apothecary it;s going to take two dedicated rounds of shooting from three whole squads to take the boy down. If it's a gravis captain potentially three rounds. If they have an apothecary you'll need to kill him first which means redirecting shots from the choice HQ to the support elite. I just don't see plinking away with ap-1 1 damage shots to be effective at dropping an Iron Hand Primaris HQ.

Robtype0 wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.

They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Robtype0 wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.

They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.

Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Ehh I'm just not seeing it. Even 9 of those shots from three whole squads gets like 8 hits. Let's say 7 wounds. ap-1 to a 3+ = about 3.5 wounds which the Iron Hand has a 6+++ against. Assuming no apothecary it;s going to take two dedicated rounds of shooting from three whole squads to take the boy down. If it's a gravis captain potentially three rounds. If they have an apothecary you'll need to kill him first which means redirecting shots from the choice HQ to the support elite. I just don't see plinking away with ap-1 1 damage shots to be effective at dropping an Iron Hand Primaris HQ.

Doubt it all you want, but practical experience tells a different story. I run 3x3 Eliminators with Master Artisans in support of my Deathwatch. They absolutely massacre non-Custodian characters.

ItsPug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Robtype0 wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.

They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.

Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.

Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Robtype0 wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.

They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.

Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.

Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.

In the rules for taking relics in codex space marines, also how are they making vehicles into characters in the first place?