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 WisdomLS wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Robtype0 wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.

They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.

Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.

Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.

In the rules for taking relics in codex space marines, also how are they making vehicles into characters in the first place?

They have a stratagem to do it we have learned. Vehicles not being able to take relics is stupid. Knights can take relics. It's actually called a relic leviathan and you can give it forge world relics.

 WisdomLS wrote:

In the rules for taking relics in codex space marines, also how are they making vehicles into characters in the first place?

One of the rumored IH strats is to give a Dreadnought the Character keyword. It's not confirmed.

Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.

But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1

I guess Ravenguard can kill any Knights that are characters really well. That's probably the most universal use of the trait.

Edit: whoops, didnt refresh the page and missed the post above.

It does say named chrs and vehicles cant take relics in the new codex. Not that it mattered much, only vehicle chrs were index only at this point.

It's odd how much worse the raven guard super doctrine is compared to the iron hands one. I guess it maybe gives them a reason to use stalker bolt rifles with their sniper rifle strat to just pile mortal wounds on something. The end result is probably to give them a better chance against knights (who will particularly fear plasma inceptors and hellblasters), but not much else.

On the other (iron) hand, a buff that affects the devastator doctrine is inherently great, because it kicks in on turn 1* - which is usually the most important turn. But it's also a far more significant buff, particuarly to vehicles like dreadnoughts and vindicators which want to move but don't have potms.

You really have to think quite hard to see how to use the raven guard ability, whereas the iron hands one is powerful in obvious ways. That's generally a good indication of which is best.

My fingers are so crossed right now for my Crimson Fists' ability. Please don't make it suck, GW!

*This is also the downside of the white scar doctrine - it happens too late.

To be fair when frontline gaming was doing one of their podcasts they said iron hands was going to be the most powerful because it was the simplest and easiest to use / get your head around.

I am seeing a lot of use from the ravenguard trait really. Every army has chrs in it and if your fighting ravenwing it doesnt matter, you have to protect your chrs because every thing is a threat. Even scouts can do some damage to a chr!

I forsee a lot of ravenguard sniper detachments popping up. How many points is a stalker captain and 3 eliminator squads in a spearhead? By turn two, you'll Have plinked out most enemy foot characters in an army. And that's not even knowing what any of the snipey based relics/traits/psychics are yet,

 McGibs wrote:
I forsee a lot of ravenguard sniper detachments popping up. How many points is a stalker captain and 3 eliminator squads in a spearhead? By turn two, you'll Have plinked out most enemy foot characters in an army. And that's not even knowing what any of the snipey based relics/traits/psychics are yet,

330ish depending on load out. But it wouldn't have to be a spearhead. Marine brigades are looking good now that CP are in demand, and there are just so many units that each slot has something that is good, cheap or both. And remember you don't get the super doctrine unless you're all the same chapter, so it's not like a Raven Guard eliminator spearhead is plug and play. What could be, though, is the same spearhead with master artisans and stealthy. With the built in rerolls you might be better taking a Phobos librarian in that case for some added utility.

and rememebr you only get the doctrine bonus if you're running a 100% pure army so no ravenguard spearheard accompanying an ultramarines battalion

and rememebr you only get the doctrine bonus if you're running a 100% pure army so no ravenguard spearheard accompanying an ultramarines battalion

The wording is the entire army must have doctrines in order to get the bonus.

Is there an FAQ? Otherwise there is nothing stopping you having mixed Codex Compliant Chapters.

NexAddo wrote:

and rememebr you only get the doctrine bonus if you're running a 100% pure army so no ravenguard spearheard accompanying an ultramarines battalion

The wording is the entire army must have doctrines in order to get the bonus.

Is there an FAQ? Otherwise there is nothing stopping you having mixed Codex Compliant Chapters.

Extrapolation from Ultra and Scars Supplements; both state you do not get the following abilities unless your army(besides UNALIGNED) are all Ultra/scar or the same Ultra/scar successor(so not even 2 detachments from different successors)

You get the basic doctrines if the whole army is marine. You only get the super doctrine if the whole army is also the same chapter.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

NexAddo wrote:

and rememebr you only get the doctrine bonus if you're running a 100% pure army so no ravenguard spearheard accompanying an ultramarines battalion

The wording is the entire army must have doctrines in order to get the bonus.

Is there an FAQ? Otherwise there is nothing stopping you having mixed Codex Compliant Chapters.

Extrapolation from Ultra and Scars Supplements; both state you do not get the following abilities unless your army(besides UNALIGNED) are all Ultra/scar or the same Ultra/scar successor(so not even 2 detachments from different successors)

Good thing the army I'm currently working on is White Scars and Raven Guard and I don't care about the bonus as much!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Robtype0 wrote:

Then they just drive one of their several tanks in front of him to force LOS so you have to plink away with the -1 1 damage shots for days.

To be fair, anyone using that relic will be hiding that character at the best of their ability when facing snipers.

They can make a Vehical a character for CP. Theyll just take a relic levi -give it the -1 damage relic and pile units around it. Oh you shot my vehical that is taking half damage -1 with t9 and 2+/4++ 6+++. Also with a 5++ to mortals for 1 CP and I can repair it for 6 wounds a turn? You pretty much can't destroy that thing. We really need to find out how half damage and -1 damage interact with each other. Ether way it's taking 6 damage and reducing it to 2 or 3 and you have 6+++.

Where are you getting the vehicle becomes a character thing from? And even if it were the case vehicles cannot take relics as per the codex.

Where does it say vehicles can't take relics? Relics have rules for what can take them.

In the rules for taking relics in codex space marines, also how are they making vehicles into characters in the first place?

They have a stratagem to do it we have learned. Vehicles not being able to take relics is stupid. Knights can take relics. It's actually called a relic leviathan and you can give it forge world relics.

At this point that is nothing more than a rumor.

don't take random speculation and "I heard from a guy who cleans the floors for pocket change at my local game store" rumors as factual.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.

But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1

Personally I love it. It's fluffy and powerful at the same time without being overbearing. It will really force your opponent to adapt his playstyle unless he wants to lose all his most important units in no time at all. Going to be a lot of fun playing cat and mouse with my opponent while he tries to hide his characters and get rid of my Eliminators.

Pandabeer wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.

But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1

Personally I love it. It's fluffy and powerful at the same time without being overbearing. It will really force your opponent to adapt his playstyle unless he wants to lose all his most important units in no time at all. Going to be a lot of fun playing cat and mouse with my opponent while he tries to hide his characters and get rid of my Eliminators.

I doubt their is any cat and mouse going on here it's simply can I annihilate your snipers before you annihilate my charictors. If yes I win, if not yeah fun times playing with zero buff bots in aura hammer edition.
Also RIP knights

Raven guard eliminators are certainly fantastic. The sniper ones are even a threat to knights – probably doing more damage point for point than las fusils thanks to the mortal wounds. It’s going to be fun firing plasma inceptors and hellblasters at them too, with no risk of exploding.

But you can’t have an army of eliminators – you can only have nine – and not everyone plays knights. I guess you could bring a bunch of sniper scouts too.

It’ll be interesting to see how this works on the table. Knocking the characters out from an army can make a huge difference in some cases, particularly against chaos.

Pandabeer wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.

But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1

Personally I love it. It's fluffy and powerful at the same time without being overbearing. It will really force your opponent to adapt his playstyle unless he wants to lose all his most important units in no time at all. Going to be a lot of fun playing cat and mouse with my opponent while he tries to hide his characters and get rid of my Eliminators.

The thing is that eliminators are already really good at killing characters, even if you don't pick raven guard. Even with NO chapter tactics and NO auras, three squads (on average) pick up a space marine captain per turn. Eliminators are probably better run as iron hands! They get to move and shoot for no penalty (so you can start them out of LOS and walk out to shoot with mortis rounds your turn 1). AND they get native reroll ones to hit thrown in. And all of this happens turn 1, not turn 2. It says something when iron hands can potentially do sniping characters better than RG (as well as doing all heavy weapon shooting better).

Hopefully RG have some great powers, strats and warlord traits to balance this out cos they're pretty subpar at the momeny

The main issue I have with the Raven Guard trait, is, that against the most common characters you generally don’t need the +1 hit and wound, and, for those characters you’d like it for (i.e Knights and Primarchs etc), you’re looking to kill them turn 1 anyway, so by the time the bonus is active, the target will hopefully be dead anyway.

I just feel, that whilst it is thematic that the RG attempt to “Cut off the Head”, I just think that the other Chapters just do it, and everything else, much better.

I think that they made a mistake not letting you choose which doctrine to start in. (It could even be made into a stratagem perhaps?)

It just makes white scars so much worse (the game could easily already be decided by turn 3, and assault armies really don't need more obstacles). The raven guard doctrine could be interesting if it started turn 1, but I totally don't see the point if you have to wait for it.

So far iron hands look like the clear winner, with some UM builds being good (particularly aggressors!). The ultramarine buff is strong enough that it could be worth waiting a turn for if you built around it.

I think Imperial/Crimson Fists could be seriously filthy too though. Assuming that Centurion strat from Vigilus will make it's way into their book, combined with their new tactics.

Mmmmm delicious bolter fire.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I think that they made a mistake not letting you choose which doctrine to start in. (It could even be made into a stratagem perhaps?)

It just makes white scars so much worse (the game could easily already be decided by turn 3, and assault armies really don't need more obstacles). The raven guard doctrine could be interesting if it started turn 1, but I totally don't see the point if you have to wait for it.

So far iron hands look like the clear winner, with some UM builds being good (particularly aggressors!). The ultramarine buff is strong enough that it could be worth waiting a turn for if you built around it.

I don't know. Yes, it would certainly be fantastic if White Scars could start off in tactical doctrine, remove screens with a hail of improved bolter fire, then switch to assault doctrine T2 for a massive charge with bikers and deepstrikers. On the other hand, that might be too powerful as well. I am personally of the opinion that RG and WS have powerful super-doctrines without being too much but Iron Hands certainly look a little overpowered at the moment, with UM being at the border between just strong and OP.

Mandragola wrote:
Raven guard eliminators are certainly fantastic. The sniper ones are even a threat to knights – probably doing more damage point for point than las fusils thanks to the mortal wounds. It’s going to be fun firing plasma inceptors and hellblasters at them too, with no risk of exploding.

But you can’t have an army of eliminators – you can only have nine – and not everyone plays knights. I guess you could bring a bunch of sniper scouts too.

It’ll be interesting to see how this works on the table. Knocking the characters out from an army can make a huge difference in some cases, particularly against chaos.

Specifically against vehicle characters like knights, las fusils edge out mortis rounds. But just a little.

1/6 more likely to woud, and (against not a knight) 1/6 more likely to not get saved. Then we have a flat 3 damage on wounds suffered vs d3 with a 1/3 chance mortal wound.

Bolt sniper rifles are still very effective in tactical doctrine with RG against vehilce characters, and even more effective vs non-vehicle characters so are still the better choice in such an army.

The effect of forcing you to start in devastator doctrine is certainly that it’s better if your super-doctrine works in devastator mode. It’s really easy to build an army around essentially having an always on bonus of -1 ap to most of your guns, rerolls of 1s and no penalty to move and shoot.

It’s also super frustrating for those of us who don’t know what our bonuses will be yet. They hugely affect the kinds of things we’ll want to have in our armies, as we can see with how good things like UM aggressors could be. We can see that iron hands want suppressors and raven guard probably want inceptors instead (or totally different stuff) but I’ve got no real clue what my Crimson Fists will want.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Raven guard eliminators are certainly fantastic. The sniper ones are even a threat to knights – probably doing more damage point for point than las fusils thanks to the mortal wounds. It’s going to be fun firing plasma inceptors and hellblasters at them too, with no risk of exploding.

But you can’t have an army of eliminators – you can only have nine – and not everyone plays knights. I guess you could bring a bunch of sniper scouts too.

It’ll be interesting to see how this works on the table. Knocking the characters out from an army can make a huge difference in some cases, particularly against chaos.

Specifically against vehicle characters like knights, las fusils edge out mortis rounds. But just a little.

1/6 more likely to woud, and (against not a knight) 1/6 more likely to not get saved. Then we have a flat 3 damage on wounds suffered vs d3 with a 1/3 chance mortal wound.

Bolt sniper rifles are still very effective in tactical doctrine with RG against vehilce characters, and even more effective vs non-vehicle characters so are still the better choice in such an army.

An individual las fusil might beat a bolt sniper rifle, but it's significantly more expensive. That's why I think bolt sniper rifles could be better point for point - while also letting you snipe normal-sized characters.

For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.

Mandragola wrote:
The effect of forcing you to start in devastator doctrine is certainly that it’s better if your super-doctrine works in devastator mode. It’s really easy to build an army around essentially having an always on bonus of -1 ap to most of your guns, rerolls of 1s and no penalty to move and shoot.

It’s also super frustrating for those of us who don’t know what our bonuses will be yet. They hugely affect the kinds of things we’ll want to have in our armies, as we can see with how good things like UM aggressors could be. We can see that iron hands want suppressors and raven guard probably want inceptors instead (or totally different stuff) but I’ve got no real clue what my Crimson Fists will want.

Bolters. Just an absolute assload of bolters. Aggressors, Centurions, Intercessors. Min squads.

But yeah, it'd be nice to know what else to build around that.

Mandragola wrote:
The effect of forcing you to start in devastator doctrine is certainly that it’s better if your super-doctrine works in devastator mode. It’s really easy to build an army around essentially having an always on bonus of -1 ap to most of your guns, rerolls of 1s and no penalty to move and shoot.

It’s also super frustrating for those of us who don’t know what our bonuses will be yet. They hugely affect the kinds of things we’ll want to have in our armies, as we can see with how good things like UM aggressors could be. We can see that iron hands want suppressors and raven guard probably want inceptors instead (or totally different stuff) but I’ve got no real clue what my Crimson Fists will want.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Raven guard eliminators are certainly fantastic. The sniper ones are even a threat to knights – probably doing more damage point for point than las fusils thanks to the mortal wounds. It’s going to be fun firing plasma inceptors and hellblasters at them too, with no risk of exploding.

But you can’t have an army of eliminators – you can only have nine – and not everyone plays knights. I guess you could bring a bunch of sniper scouts too.

It’ll be interesting to see how this works on the table. Knocking the characters out from an army can make a huge difference in some cases, particularly against chaos.

Specifically against vehicle characters like knights, las fusils edge out mortis rounds. But just a little.

1/6 more likely to woud, and (against not a knight) 1/6 more likely to not get saved. Then we have a flat 3 damage on wounds suffered vs d3 with a 1/3 chance mortal wound.

Bolt sniper rifles are still very effective in tactical doctrine with RG against vehilce characters, and even more effective vs non-vehicle characters so are still the better choice in such an army.

An individual las fusil might beat a bolt sniper rifle, but it's significantly more expensive. That's why I think bolt sniper rifles could be better point for point - while also letting you snipe normal-sized characters.

I forgot to compare cost.

But that is fine, because I already said Bolt Sniper Rifles are the all around better choice.

You will not be fighting exaulted courts every game, and after 1 game against raven guard sniper lists, most knight players will save the cps by dropping the relics on all but thier warlord. More often than not you will see non-vehicle characters, and even MC characters are not going to be hard to drop with mortis rounds.

I do particularly like how much more reliable the Raven Guard Sniper Scouts are. I didn't do the math but I'm sure that's like twice the Mortal wound output, which isn't bad for the lowered cost of Sniper Rifles now.