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Hmm, that’s a fair point. I would still really like the 6+++ on my Leviathan or Deredeo, but counting as in cover at 12”+ is a similar negation (...except vs the not insignificant number of shots that can now ignore cover). The bracket effect is more useful for those dread types as well as it’s more likely it fails to die, but yeah both are useless to Venerables and Chaplains.

I definitely like the idea more of a mech IH list than a bunch of repulsors and leviathans 3” from a char. That just seems like it’s building a marine Tau list that either shoots you off the board or loses.

Given their buffed profile, for an IH army is there any reason for intercessors not to bring stalker bolt rifles? They can move and shoot at 36" with -3ap and dmg 2 which means they can threaten most anything. Since IH are always going to want to stay in devastator doctrine I'm not seeing the value in the regular rifles.

The reason IH flyers are good isn’t the wound table or the 6++, nice though they are, it’s the super doctrine.

Storm talons and hawks are armed with a bunch of heavy weapons and they lack potms. The super doctrine gives it to them (in effect) along with reroll 1s (which they’d rarely get usually, as they’re unsuited to sticking within bubbles), and of course another -1ap for devastator doctrine.

A flyer or two (or three!) combos well with the repulsor/leviathan castle because the weakness of that list is people hiding where it can’t see. Typically, those people will be unhappy to find a bunch of planes overhead, firing assault cannons that hit on 2s rerolling 1s. The fact that those planes are unusually tough only makes matters worse.

 buddha wrote:
Given their buffed profile, for an IH army is there any reason for intercessors not to bring stalker bolt rifles? They can move and shoot at 36" with -3ap and dmg 2 which means they can threaten most anything. Since IH are always going to want to stay in devastator doctrine I'm not seeing the value in the regular rifles.

Anti-horde.

You only get 1 shot/intercessor with Stalkers.

Normal and auto bolt rifles still have a place for clearing hordes/defending objectives.

Mean Stalker attacks from 5 intercessors are: 3.888 hit, 1.94 wound T4(2.59 T3), all wounded usually die(3+ or 4+ in cover get a 6+)

Bolt Rifle doubles those wounds but allows saves, auto bolt rifle tripples it.

Sure you will also have vehicles with high ROF weapons but range is more of a problem there as those vehicles are not going to want to babysit objective campers.

Yeah IH stalkers still aren't that great because of their low shot-count. Neither are the other options when you consider that they're likely to be staying in devastator mode. You can't really afford to use the 3CP strat to shoot characters because you're likely to have fairly low numbers of CPs.

I think the better choice for troops is probably infiltrators. If you're playing a gunline you want to keep the enemy from doing deep strike schenanigans to you. And it's handy to have some people to go and stand on midfield objectives too.

Target sighted is decent for Raven Guard though. From turn 2 onward you'll be getting mortal wounds on a 5+ on characters, which they won't enjoy at all. If your army features a lot of centurions and/or aggressors (which seems like a good idea) then you'll have enough dakka already really. It could be worth a unit of 10 intercessors with stalker bolt rifles in a double-battalion list. You'll probably have enough CPs to do it once or twice.

You could of course save your CPs and just get eliminators, for not all that much more ppm than intercessors. Their S5 guns will wound a lot of characters on a 2+.

3x3 Eliminators are pretty much mandatory in Marine lists, regardless of Chapter. They're exquisitely good.

One thing to note with stalker intercessors is that one 10 man blob of them is a serious mind game advantage. Any character that rears it's head is going to run the risk of getting blammed by 10 sniper stalkers. Yes it's a very expensive stratagem, but it's very effective at limiting enemy character movement and forcing them to play safe. They also make excellent sniper assistants to eliminators. ATM in my test list I am thinking of running 20 intercessors with stalkers, two 5 mans with one 10 man. Alongside two eliminator squads there is a lot of character hate going on and that's both a very serious direct gameplay threat, but also excellent at controlling enemy character movement which can have dramatic effects on their mobility and target selection.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
One thing to note with stalker intercessors is that one 10 man blob of them is a serious mind game advantage. Any character that rears it's head is going to run the risk of getting blammed by 10 sniper stalkers. Yes it's a very expensive stratagem, but it's very effective at limiting enemy character movement and forcing them to play safe. They also make excellent sniper assistants to eliminators. ATM in my test list I am thinking of running 20 intercessors with stalkers, two 5 mans with one 10 man. Alongside two eliminator squads there is a lot of character hate going on and that's both a very serious direct gameplay threat, but also excellent at controlling enemy character movement which can have dramatic effects on their mobility and target selection.

Yeah that's very true. There's actually not a whole lot that some of the really character-heavy armies can even do about the threat from snipers. Daemon-type lists need their many auras to function effectively. They might be able to hide them behind something and snake back, but it's pretty restrictive to do so.

I'm trying to figure out which would be better for Raven Guard. 6x5 man scout snipers or 3x3 Eliminators. The scouts have the advantage of being troops and filling out BN's, Eliminators can go out of LOS.

bmsattler wrote:
I'm trying to figure out which would be better for Raven Guard. 6x5 man scout snipers or 3x3 Eliminators. The scouts have the advantage of being troops and filling out BN's, Eliminators can go out of LOS.

Eliminators massacre characters. Scouts are for board control and CPs.

So, given the sniper strat, what specific targets are you wasting that much on? I mean, I'd rather have a Arhiman alive with a dead squad of rubrics than a dead arhiman and a live squad of rubrics.

I may be wrong on this one, but I still see that 10 man blob with assault bolters doing 30 shots doing more work than 10 shots of d2 sniper fire.

Also, I'm fairly positive the meta will back me up on the theory that versus larger targets T6-8, especially with 4/5++, volume of fire wins over low shot high strength weapons most of the time.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, given the sniper strat, what specific targets are you wasting that much on? I mean, I'd rather have a Arhiman alive with a dead squad of rubrics than a dead arhiman and a live squad of rubrics.

I may be wrong on this one, but I still see that 10 man blob with assault bolters doing 30 shots doing more work than 10 shots of d2 sniper fire.

Also, I'm fairly positive the meta will back me up on the theory that versus larger targets T6-8, especially with 4/5++, volume of fire wins over low shot high strength weapons most of the time.

100% agree that assault bolters are for sure better overall than stalkers base. The conversation however gets interesting with Iron hands due to them having such strong synergies with stalker bolters, the mere threat of the stalker bolters doubling as snipers and you also have to take into account what the rest of your army is bringing. Do you NEED rate of fire from your intercessors or do you have that covered by the vehicles in your list? For me I am running 3x redemptors and a repulsor which put out respectable amounts of s5 ap2 1 damage. I also have another set up that has 3/6 aggressors/ for further dakka. In this set up I don't really require assault bolters from my infantry, but rather high power single shots that can be a real threat to light-medium vehicles and elite infantry (perfect target being primaris). Another key note is that as Iron Hands you can move and fire at no penalty and with free re-roll ones meaning they can leave character buff auras and not lose anything. heck you make entire Iron Hand lists without captains at all and still be effective due to re-roll city from heavy. If that is going to be as effective as a chapter master I don't know, but it is worth considering when building lists.

Rate of fire is king no doubt, but you can't just look at things in a vacuum. You need to build lists with synergy in mind to work together to create the most effective results. For example if the best mathematical option for every unit in your army was the anti tank option and you just kept taking the best option per unit without looking at the army as a whole you would end up with an army that is amazing against tanks, but the moment it sees a horde you are out of options because you didn't build the list as one whole working machine, but rather broke it down to the individual cogs.

Sterling191 wrote:
3x3 Eliminators are pretty much mandatory in Marine lists, regardless of Chapter. They're exquisitely good.

Just which variations of Eliminators are worth it the most. It really seems like the Instigator Bolt Carbine is the best option for the Sergeant since it keeps the Eliminators out of Combat where they belong. For the most part, the Bolt Sniper Rifle seems to be the way to go unless you are shooting corner case items. Those Mortal Wounds on a 5+ are pretty great when using Guided Aim. If something else comes out that boosts to-wound further (Imperial Fists Doctrine is rumored to do so), it just becomes even more insane. I dunno.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
3x3 Eliminators are pretty much mandatory in Marine lists, regardless of Chapter. They're exquisitely good.

Just which variations of Eliminators are worth it the most. It really seems like the Instigator Bolt Carbine is the best option for the Sergeant since it keeps the Eliminators out of Combat where they belong. For the most part, the Bolt Sniper Rifle seems to be the way to go unless you are shooting corner case items. Those Mortal Wounds on a 5+ are pretty great when using Guided Aim. If something else comes out that boosts to-wound further (Imperial Fists Doctrine is rumored to do so), it just becomes even more insane. I dunno.

Entirely depends on how the math interacts with re-rolls. I did read that baseline with no re-rolls or modifiers that the sergeant buffing the other two was a bit better. Now what if you are Iron Hands who can natively re-roll ones? What if your are salamanders with a re-roll to hit and to wound for free? I've not seen the full numbers laid out and i'd be very interesting to see them. Now while eliminators I don't think will be getting charged often and may be limited in where the free move on overwatch can take them (I'd imagine they'd often be elevated with limited space to run to if charged) it is still nice to know you have that tool kit option from the carbine to give you that little move. Depending on how the math works out on buffing or shooting the sergeant I think the two extra points would be worth having the option to shoot and scoot.

Bolt sniper all the way. The math gets hilariously convoluted with some of the permutations, but sub T10 and/or without accuracy maluses you’re pretty set to unload all three barrels at most targets.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
3x3 Eliminators are pretty much mandatory in Marine lists, regardless of Chapter. They're exquisitely good.

Just which variations of Eliminators are worth it the most. It really seems like the Instigator Bolt Carbine is the best option for the Sergeant since it keeps the Eliminators out of Combat where they belong. For the most part, the Bolt Sniper Rifle seems to be the way to go unless you are shooting corner case items. Those Mortal Wounds on a 5+ are pretty great when using Guided Aim. If something else comes out that boosts to-wound further (Imperial Fists Doctrine is rumored to do so), it just becomes even more insane. I dunno.

Straight up all Bolt Snipers.

Bolt carbine completely removes a large amount of potential damage.

If your eliminators are even in danger of being charged; then either everything has gone very wrong/you are already going to lose the game, or you took the carbine on your sgt and the previous statement is true.

Infiltrators are also an auto-include with Eliminators: set them up 9-18" away from the eliminators as a buffer to prevent any enemy units from dropping in anywhere near the eliminators. You only need a 5-man squad for this too, which saves you some points.

I'm glad that Raven Guard eliminators are so awesome vs characters. You can even give their sergeant Korvidae bolts so he can fire Mortis rounds at targets he can't see.

Here's a shot at a 1750 point Raven Guard army.

Battalion 1

Shrike 130

Librarian in Phobos Armour 101
Force Sword
Camo Cloak

5 Infiltrators 110

5 Infiltrators 110

5 Scouts 80
Sniper Rifles
Camo Cloaks

3 Eliminators 72
Bolt Sniper Rifles
Camo Cloaks

3 Eliminators 72
Bolt Sniper Rifles
Camo Cloaks


Battalion 2

Primaris Chaplain 77

Primaris Lieutenant 70
Master-crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle

10 Intercessors 170
Chainsword
Stalker Bolt Rifles

5 Intercessors 90
Auto Bolt Rifles
Chainsword

5 Intercessors 86
Bolt Rifles
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
Chainsword

6 Assault Centurions 360
6 Hurricane Bolters
6 Flamers
6 Meltaguns

6 Aggressors 222
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

So the plan is to give the Chaplain the Master of Ambush warlord trait as a bonus. Then if you go first he can cast it at the beginning of round 1. If it works he teleports himself and the 6 centurions to 9" from a target. Meanwhile Shrike uses the infiltrators strat to run after them 15-20". Shrike can charge in first to prevent overwatch. The Centurions plod forwards, gun down the screens then charge in with +2 to their charge range and 6" pile in and consolidate moves.

It works almost as well going second. Deep strike the centurions and probably send the aggressors with the Chaplain, but behind the infiltrator screen. Drop the centurions in near the Chaplain and off you go again, though you have to do a 7" charge.

It's very strong that the Litany and the teleport warlord trait are both at the start of battle round. You can decide to do the litany first and then teleport where needed, according to whether the litany succeeded or not.

You can potentially throw a few relics around. The lieutenant can have the relic rifle with 3 shots that can target characters. Various relics work for the librarian, who you could either give his usual discipline or the RG one. I quite like the power he can have to make his force sword S9 ap-4, and it could be handy to take the teleport power, though he should probably just be getting CPs back. The Chaplain obviously gets the Crozuis.

Meanwhile there's an awful lot of dakka in the list, and an awful lot of ways to snipe characters. One thing that's clearly missing is a way to kill Eldar flyers though, beyond just firing melta guns at them from centurions and hoping for the best. Shrike might finish off a damaged one. But to be honest nobody is much good at this. I think you mainly try to kill their infantry... but good luck with that. Nobody seemst to have an answer to these things, judging by Tony and Mani's performances at the LGT.

Mandragola wrote:
. One thing that's clearly missing is a way to kill Eldar flyers though, beyond just firing melta guns at them from centurions and hoping for the best. Shrike might finish off a damaged one. But to be honest nobody is much good at this. I think you mainly try to kill their infantry... but good luck with that. Nobody seemst to have an answer to these things, judging by Tony and Mani's performances at the LGT.

IH stormhawks if eldar flyers start popping up more after LGT. +2 to hit them and they are -2 to hit you. A smash captain or two helps as well.

Theres also just the hope they get hit with a nerf in the faq

I notice raven guard successor chapters can now allow assault cents to deep strike within flamer range for 1CP. This has potential.

6 man unit on the drop will put out 42 S4 AP-1 auto hits and 72 AP-1 bolter shots (as you'll have changed to tac doctrine by then)

Just ludicrous! The flamers alone will do 7 wounds to an eldar flyer straight away.

I'm not sure there's a solution out there that lets you actually kill Eldar planes. Maybe something like loads of deep striking RG devastator centurions. Even that might not be enough.

In my list I could swap out the Librarian for a smash captain and maybe go for a Chaplain with a jump pack instead of a Primaris one. Then with Shrike charging in first to negate overwatch I could put a few down.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I notice raven guard successor chapters can now allow assault cents to deep strike within flamer range for 1CP. This has potential.

6 man unit on the drop will put out 42 S4 AP-1 auto hits and 72 AP-1 bolter shots (as you'll have changed to tac doctrine by then)

Just ludicrous! The flamers alone will do 7 wounds to an eldar flyer straight away.

Thats actually plan B. Plan A is using the infiltrate WLT to get them within 9" of the enemy deployment zone turn 1, freebie advance and move em pre-game, then move, shoot (possibly advance if you've pre-positioned the appropriate WL) and charge

As an RG player, I think people are writing off the RG super-doctrine too quickly.

The big weakness of all sniper weapons, in my experience, is the low strength. I’m pretty much used to ignoring sniper shots because the ones that hit usually can’t come up with a 4+ to wound. Str 5 on Eliminators weapons helps against the widespread T4, but with so few shots you really need every one to come through with the wound roll.

+1 to wound characters is huge. With a lieutenant standing by, that means a str5 Eliminator shot will wound a T4 character on a 2, rerolling 1s—aka a 1/36 chance of failure.

The RG strat also makes the most efficient use of Target Sighted, Stalker Bolt Rifles are only Str4 too. If you’re spending 3CP, you really want to max the wound rolls. Seems way more important to me than the IH ability to move and shoot.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

bmsattler wrote:
I'm trying to figure out which would be better for Raven Guard. 6x5 man scout snipers or 3x3 Eliminators. The scouts have the advantage of being troops and filling out BN's, Eliminators can go out of LOS.

Why not both?

Idk, the general consensus of my flgs group is while iron hands is definitely super strong Ravenguard is nothing to sneeze at. I think ravenguard will be the army to watch out for, they have harliquin level tricks in their pockets lol.

Sterling191 wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I notice raven guard successor chapters can now allow assault cents to deep strike within flamer range for 1CP. This has potential.

6 man unit on the drop will put out 42 S4 AP-1 auto hits and 72 AP-1 bolter shots (as you'll have changed to tac doctrine by then)

Just ludicrous! The flamers alone will do 7 wounds to an eldar flyer straight away.

Thats actually plan B. Plan A is using the infiltrate WLT to get them within 9" of the enemy deployment zone turn 1, freebie advance and move em pre-game, then move, shoot (possibly advance if you've pre-positioned the appropriate WL) and charge

I quite like the idea of doing plan A and plan B simultaneously only about 600 pts to deal the enemy an enormous body blow

Can't be done simultaneously. Your reserves come in on turn 2.

That's why I just have one Centurion squad in my list and a squad of aggressors. The Aggressors will use the infiltrate strat to advance forwards on the first battle round if going first, or deep strike if going second.

Well I meant a turn 1 and turn 2 punch. That way the first one can wipe a load of screens out for the next one to have a good drop site

I'm kind of excited to try raven guard now but I think it just stems from my love of invictors. I think they might be the best chapter for them cause you can support them with infiltrating squads and characters. I just want to put 3 invictors, a squad of cents and 2 chars in someones face turn 1

Mandragola wrote:
I'm not sure there's a solution out there that lets you actually kill Eldar planes. Maybe something like loads of deep striking RG devastator centurions. Even that might not be enough.

In my list I could swap out the Librarian for a smash captain and maybe go for a Chaplain with a jump pack instead of a Primaris one. Then with Shrike charging in first to negate overwatch I could put a few down.

IH xiphon interceptor with blessing of the machine god. It hits eldar flyers on 2+ with +1 to hit, and can re-roll 1s when the devastator doctrine is active.

 p5freak wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I'm not sure there's a solution out there that lets you actually kill Eldar planes. Maybe something like loads of deep striking RG devastator centurions. Even that might not be enough.

In my list I could swap out the Librarian for a smash captain and maybe go for a Chaplain with a jump pack instead of a Primaris one. Then with Shrike charging in first to negate overwatch I could put a few down.

IH xiphon interceptor with blessing of the machine god. It hits eldar flyers on 2+ with +1 to hit, and can re-roll 1s when the devastator doctrine is active.

That’s a way to kill one Eldar plane if you go first, not a way to beat an army with 8 of them.

Mandragola wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I'm not sure there's a solution out there that lets you actually kill Eldar planes. Maybe something like loads of deep striking RG devastator centurions. Even that might not be enough.

In my list I could swap out the Librarian for a smash captain and maybe go for a Chaplain with a jump pack instead of a Primaris one. Then with Shrike charging in first to negate overwatch I could put a few down.

IH xiphon interceptor with blessing of the machine god. It hits eldar flyers on 2+ with +1 to hit, and can re-roll 1s when the devastator doctrine is active.

That’s a way to kill one Eldar plane if you go first, not a way to beat an army with 8 of them.

Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.