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 p5freak wrote:

Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.

This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.

It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.

Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.

Lemondish wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.

This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.

It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.

Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.

FWIW, it is a solution to what was asked. It isn't like they're that much more than 3 Stalkers either, which is the cheaper suggestion too.

Which brings me to suggest Stalkers.

Lemondish wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.

This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.

It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.

Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.

I provided a possible solution. Can you do the same ? And it shouldnt cost more than ~100 (whatever your currency is), because no one will bother to buy anything that is ~400, unless they already have it.

Lemondish wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.

This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.

It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.

Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.

3 Xiphons at £89 each is £267.
8 eldar planes at £45 each is £360.

So people are willing to buy 8 planes for 360 to keep up with the meta but spending almost £100 less to solve the problem is unthinkable?

Why not 2-3 iron hands stormhawks instead? If you include the ironstone and the new iron father they can cluster round them for -2 to hit, 5+ invuln, -1 damage, 6+++ if the eldars go 1st. They'd really struggle to chew through that.

I think people are undervaluing Stalkers full stop tbh. They offer great firepower and resilience for their points + that strat for them is beast.

I think you'll be seeing triple Stalkers in IH lists if flyers stay big (and even if they don't, given the number of other top level units that have the fly keyword).

ItsPug wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.

This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.

It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.

Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.

3 Xiphons at £89 each is £267.
8 eldar planes at £45 each is £360.

So people are willing to buy 8 planes for 360 to keep up with the meta but spending almost £100 less to solve the problem is unthinkable?

Point taken - meta chasers are insane. I guess 3 Xiphons are a legitimate suggestion then.

I just assumed everyone was talking hypothetical list wars since not a single one of you are actually going to go and prove in a tournament that 3 Xiphons will solve the problem

Lemondish wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.

This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.

It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.

Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.

3 Xiphons at £89 each is £267.
8 eldar planes at £45 each is £360.

So people are willing to buy 8 planes for 360 to keep up with the meta but spending almost £100 less to solve the problem is unthinkable?

Point taken - meta chasers are insane. I guess 3 Xiphons are a legitimate suggestion then.

I just assumed everyone was talking hypothetical list wars since not a single one of you are actually going to go and prove in a tournament that 3 Xiphons will solve the problem

Personally, I will go with Stormtalons with Skyhammer missiles.

Disclaimer: I could be described a meta chaser, and I agree it’s a bit mad. But it also allowed me to go 5:0 at the LGT last weekend (and I didn't get drawn against Tony or Mani, which helped too). As it happens I’ve got one Xiphon, painted up for my Crimson Fists, and an unpainted Stormhawk. If I were to make an iron hands list I’d have some decisions to make.

Xiphons pay for POTMS that Iron Hands get anyway. Stormhawks are a lot cheaper. You want a unit that can both handle flyers and help shoot up stuff on the ground against “normal” armies. A Stormhawk does those jobs fairly well, thanks to its two assault cannons, but a Xiphon is very monotask.

One thing a Xiphon does pretty well is shoot up Iron Hands Repulsors. If those are going to be common, it’s a major point in the Xiphon’s favour.

A Stormtalon might also work. Better vs stuff on the ground but worse against planes than the Stormhawk, it has the advantage of being able to charge and tie things up in melee. One of these with a Typhoon missile launcher could well be a decent option.

Stalkers are a cheap source of tough AA, which is great. I think they’re a bit inflexible though. They aren’t what you want against plaguebearers.

I think that a hard cap on three flyer models in organised play is needed. Changing their price could help but actually I think their cost is about right individually. The problem comes when you line up 8 of the things so your opponent can’t move at all.

I would wait until the big FAQ comes out. No point in investing in anti flyer meta if GW then comes out and limits you to 3 Flyers or changes the rules so flyers dont block movement.

Mandragola wrote:

Xiphons pay for POTMS that Iron Hands get anyway. Stormhawks are a lot cheaper. You want a unit that can both handle flyers and help shoot up stuff on the ground against “normal” armies. A Stormhawk does those jobs fairly well, thanks to its two assault cannons, but a Xiphon is very monotask.

How is a xiphon monotask ? It hits any unit, which hasnt FLY, on 3+.

 p5freak wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Xiphons pay for POTMS that Iron Hands get anyway. Stormhawks are a lot cheaper. You want a unit that can both handle flyers and help shoot up stuff on the ground against “normal” armies. A Stormhawk does those jobs fairly well, thanks to its two assault cannons, but a Xiphon is very monotask.

How is a xiphon monotask ? It hits any unit, which hasnt FLY, on 3+.

Shot count. It’s good at killing big things, and especially good against flyers, but no use if you come against a load of infantry. The stormhawk and stormtalon both have assault cannons, and those 12 S6 ap-2 shots ought to a do something – including against Eldar flyers.

Even so I think you can make case for taking a Xiphon – and indeed I’ve got one. But if you took 3 I think you’d find your army was inflexible.

There’s also the standard problem of flyers crashing. Eldar ones are good partly because they don’t generally crash, thanks to getting to turn twice.

Anyone got experience in good all-primaris lists, I find it really hard to make it work more comp. Antitank/mobility issues.. tanks are super expensive if spammed, very hard to squeeze calgar even in 1,5k and 2k lists..

Probably best keep the all-primaris conversation in this tactica thread too?

Xirax wrote:
Anyone got experience in good all-primaris lists, I find it really hard to make it work more comp. Antitank/mobility issues.. tanks are super expensive if spammed, very hard to squeeze calgar even in 1,5k and 2k lists..

Probably best keep the all-primaris conversation in this tactica thread too?

I'll tell you how this did after a FLGS tourney coming up on Sat:

Sons of Medusa(basically just Iron Hands, been playing them since 5th edition) 1998 pts:

Pimaris Chaplain W/ Benediction of Fury, and Mantra of Strength.

Primaris Librarian.

10-man Infiltrators w/ Helix Adept.
6-man Intercessors w/power sword sgt, 1 Aux grenade launcher.
10-man Intercessors w/ 1 Aux Grenade Launcher

Redemptor w/ both onslaughts, rocket pod, 2 fragstorm

3-man Inceptors w/Assault bolters
3-man Suppressors

3-man Eliminators w/Bolt Snipers
6-man Hellblasters w/Incinerators
Executioner w/heavy Las destroyer +rocket pod

Repulsor w/both Onslaghts, 4x fragstorm, 2x krakstorm, rocket pod, heavy stubber, and twin las.

Going to roll for warlord trait and powers, chaplain is warlord. Might swap benediction of fury for a different relic if I can get the supplement before the games.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Xirax wrote:
Anyone got experience in good all-primaris lists, I find it really hard to make it work more comp. Antitank/mobility issues.. tanks are super expensive if spammed, very hard to squeeze calgar even in 1,5k and 2k lists..

Probably best keep the all-primaris conversation in this tactica thread too?

I'll tell you how this did after a FLGS tourney coming up on Sat:

Sons of Medusa(basically just Iron Hands, been playing them since 5th edition) 1998 pts:

Pimaris Chaplain W/ Benediction of Fury, and Mantra of Strength.

Primaris Librarian.

10-man Infiltrators w/ Helix Adept.
6-man Intercessors w/power sword sgt, 1 Aux grenade launcher.
10-man Intercessors w/ 1 Aux Grenade Launcher

Redemptor w/ both onslaughts, rocket pod, 2 fragstorm

3-man Inceptors w/Assault bolters
3-man Suppressors

3-man Eliminators w/Bolt Snipers
6-man Hellblasters w/Incinerators
Executioner w/heavy Las destroyer +rocket pod

Repulsor w/both Onslaghts, 4x fragstorm, 2x krakstorm, rocket pod, heavy stubber, and twin las.

Going to roll for warlord trait and powers, chaplain is warlord. Might swap benediction of fury for a different relic if I can get the supplement before the games.

Why do you play this as IH, with so few vehicles and heavy weapons

Because I have always played Sons of Medusa.

My old-marines list is all Dreads, devs and tacs with heavies

Not going to paint up a different army just to play to metas.

Seems fine to me. IH infantry are perfectly good, it's just that their tanks are amazing.

Has anyone found a nice unit composition to best take advantage of the Indomitus Crusade formation? Mostly for the grey shield warlord trait.

Too situational or is it a good way to adapt to any situation?

demontalons wrote:
Has anyone found a nice unit composition to best take advantage of the Indomitus Crusade formation? Mostly for the grey shield warlord trait.

Too situational or is it a good way to adapt to any situation?

Its nice in a brigade full of Intercessors (30+ models). For 2 CP you gain very beneficial rule for a turn for all of them. Seems like a worth it trade.

Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?

You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.

They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?

You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.

They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.

Screening is a big issue with that. Sure, you can in theory pop a Knight on the charge. (I'll check the math in a moment.) But a single squad of Guardsmen makes that strategy useless.

As for damage dealt versus a Knight...

20 attacks
10 hits
15/2 wounds
75/12 or 25/4 unsaved
75/4 damage, or 18.75

If you can finagle hit rerolls (Chapter Master in your Pod?) you can probably do it in.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?

You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.

They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.

Screening is a big issue with that. Sure, you can in theory pop a Knight on the charge. (I'll check the math in a moment.) But a single squad of Guardsmen makes that strategy useless.

As for damage dealt versus a Knight...

20 attacks
10 hits
15/2 wounds
75/12 or 25/4 unsaved
75/4 damage, or 18.75

If you can finagle hit rerolls (Chapter Master in your Pod?) you can probably do it in.

Can't you just pop Honour the Chapter and solve it that way?

Alternatively, you could grab Helbrecht in the pod. He's got the inferior-style old Chapter Master, but he's got his +1S aura so you'd be wounding on 3s.

Alternatively alternatively, just run Marshal Law in the pod. 7 attacks on the charge (4 base, 5 for charging, 6 for stratagem, 7 for Vigilus warlord trait) rerolling 1s to hit and all wound rolls with unmodified 6s to hit generating 2 hits. If I've done the maths correctly (see spoiler tag below) that's 25.5 wounds with the fight again stratagem, and he's cheaper than the Veterans anyway.



EDIT: With Helbrecht it'd go up to a whopping 29.6 wounds without the fight again stratagem.

The thing is that you don't have to drop it in during turn one; as long as your Chaplain is still alive you can threaten the enemy with a 33" "be in here and die" combo (14" move on Chaplain + 6" turbo boost + 6" aura range + 7" charge (and you're Templars so you've got rerolls for a better than 7" average charge).

Honour The Chapter is characters only, isn't it?

Holy carp, it isn't! Dang!

So with Helbrecht they'd kill a Warhound in one turn.

That's a proper amount of Zeal I'd say.

I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.

Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.

That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.

Thinking of experimenting with a stormhawk with my UM. Not as good if it was IH, but it can benefit a lot while I'm in either Tac or Dev.

Mandragola wrote:
I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.

Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.

That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.

Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):
Use the 400pt character Land Raider Excelsior and give it the ambush warlord trait. Why just bring up just 6 assault centurions when you can bring up 9 plus a banner or apothecary to support them and a tank to soak overwatch before the cents charge?

Nothing says sneaky ambush like a giant Land Raider, slow Assault Centurions, and a giant banner

Bonus points when you run a second one and teleport it across the map with the Libby power.

For a somewhat more realistic RG all in assault army, what about allying in BA? If going the turn 1 charge you aren’t really leveraging doctrines anyways, so why not grab the super smash captain and maybe a Libby dread? And with that, you might as well also add in a 32 or 17 too to feed cps for all those strats. Those guys can hold the back field while most of your army is smashing things and the BA guys let you tag fliers which the assault cents alone can’t.

Isn't that warlord trait Lias Issodon's thing?