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bort wrote:
Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):

Legends rule? Sorry, I'm not completely up on the rumored FAQ and other changes. What will this change?

bmsattler wrote:

bort wrote:
Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):

Legends rule? Sorry, I'm not completely up on the rumored FAQ and other changes. What will this change?

No more index only or special release stuff allowed in tournaments, they will be flagged for Legends games only. So for marines, that drops several of their bike options and TL autocannon dreadnought arms at the least. Along with those special character tanks I’d never heard of before yesterday.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?

You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.

They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.

Screening is a big issue with that. Sure, you can in theory pop a Knight on the charge. (I'll check the math in a moment.) But a single squad of Guardsmen makes that strategy useless.

As for damage dealt versus a Knight...

20 attacks
10 hits
15/2 wounds
75/12 or 25/4 unsaved
75/4 damage, or 18.75

If you can finagle hit rerolls (Chapter Master in your Pod?) you can probably do it in.

Chapter Champ with a Thunder Hammer would probably be good as it would get a bonus vs the Knight (they're always made Characters).

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Thinking of experimenting with a stormhawk with my UM. Not as good if it was IH, but it can benefit a lot while I'm in either Tac or Dev.

I'm pretty sold on stormhawks myself but that's from an IH perspective. Theres a good amount of fly around now and the bonuses to hit combined with the penalties to be hit are pretty good. I'm just playing around with load outs atm. I like stormcannom and typhoon for a good mix. I ran it on the mathhamer site and typhoon is very slightly better than skyhammer against -2 eldar flyers and a lot better against ground targets. I want to pair it with las talons but then were at the 200pt mark

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Isn't that warlord trait Lias Issodon's thing?

Lias does that naturally. He's kinda pricey though, so you have to make his drops count.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?

You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.

They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.

Screening is a big issue with that. Sure, you can in theory pop a Knight on the charge. (I'll check the math in a moment.) But a single squad of Guardsmen makes that strategy useless.

As for damage dealt versus a Knight...

20 attacks
10 hits
15/2 wounds
75/12 or 25/4 unsaved
75/4 damage, or 18.75

If you can finagle hit rerolls (Chapter Master in your Pod?) you can probably do it in.

Chapter Champ with a Thunder Hammer would probably be good as it would get a bonus vs the Knight (they're always made Characters).

Chapter Champs can't have the BT Vigilus buffs though, and only has 4 attacks base.

Now the Emperor's Champion, on the other hand...

With the Vigilus Warlord Trait, Honour the Chapter (or, perhaps more likely, the "fight again at death" strat), and the Vigilus charge buff you're looking at 14.7 wounds to a Knight on the charge. True, this is a bunch of CP to only half-kill a Knight, but the Emperor's Champion is a 75 point model.

Point him at anything below T7 and we get 7 wounds with AP-3 pre-save that each do d3 damage, and this is with only the Vigilus charge stratagem and Warlord Trait. That's 7 wounds against a Character with a 4++. He'll kill a non-Tzeench Daemon Prince before the Prince gets to swing back, and he'll almost kill a Tzeench Prince that hasn't got a 3++.

For only 75 points he sure can ruin somebody's day pretty hard.

bort wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.

Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.

That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.

Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):
Use the 400pt character Land Raider Excelsior and give it the ambush warlord trait. Why just bring up just 6 assault centurions when you can bring up 9 plus a banner or apothecary to support them and a tank to soak overwatch before the cents charge?

Nothing says sneaky ambush like a giant Land Raider, slow Assault Centurions, and a giant banner

Lol, top marks.

So you can teleport the Excelsior full of (for example) 3 centurions and a character of some kind, plus another infantry unit of your choice.

Having a librarian teleport another one is funny but not so great, because the guys inside can't get out. Better to teleport a chaplain dreadnought with the +2" charge litany running.

Meanwhile Salamanders have come up with a totally obnoxious stratagem. It's like a reverse character keyword on a unit, so the enemy can't shoot anyone else who is further away. But you can use it on a unit that's hidden, or on a character who isn't the closest, and the enemy basically can't shoot at all. Ok...

Most play tested edition supposedly, despite a stratagem that even a 1st day intern would should recognize as broken with no testing needed on the table, making it into a final draft of a $30 dollar book...

EDIT, I guess we can only hope the leaked image is fake

I've heard people who are fairly well connected who stated that the leaks don't look like anything they have heard people talking about. I'm skeptical in the extreme of the Salamanders/Imperial Fists stuff that isn't from GW.

Well we had the salamanders rumours and now we've got pictures showing exactly the same stuff. And Valrack has shown an image of the spines of all the books - though irritatingly with the plastic still on the IF one.

However, I do find the potato cam thing bizarre. How, in 2019, is it possible to take pictures that bad?

If they're coming in October we'll have them for sure before too long.

Mandragola wrote:
Well we had the salamanders rumours and now we've got pictures showing exactly the same stuff. And Valrack has shown an image of the spines of all the books - though irritatingly with the plastic still on the IF one.

The plastic wrap is the insane bit. What sort of person wouldn't instantly open it?

A person who works at a distribution/fulfillment center where they dont own the inventory thats going through their location.

Sterling191 wrote:
A person who works at a distribution/fulfillment center where they dont own the inventory thats going through their location.

But it was shown in a pile of supplements, all others having been unwrapped.

Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.

bort wrote:
Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.

They just need to FAQ out non-los cheesing. Codex Marines arent exactly overflowing with durable infantry options.

Sterling191 wrote:

bort wrote:
Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.

They just need to FAQ out non-los cheesing. Codex Marines arent exactly overflowing with durable infantry options.

Yeah, if FAQed to only work when the firer can actually target the sacrificial unit then it’s fine, maybe even underpowered. But until FAQed it’s better than IH durability, cause who needs durability when nothing can target you?

bort wrote:

bmsattler wrote:

bort wrote:
Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):

Legends rule? Sorry, I'm not completely up on the rumored FAQ and other changes. What will this change?

No more index only or special release stuff allowed in tournaments, they will be flagged for Legends games only. So for marines, that drops several of their bike options and TL autocannon dreadnought arms at the least. Along with those special character tanks I’d never heard of before yesterday.

A note: TL Autocannon Dreads are still legal*, they just cost 6pts more and are in HS, not Elites, thanks to the Forge World rules for Mortis Dreadnoughts.

bort wrote:
Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.

Wouldn't they still be targetable if they were the closest? Just position accordingly to avoid letting a character take advantage of this. Don't walk into the trap since you have a full movement phase to expect it.

Lemondish wrote:

bort wrote:
Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.

Wouldn't they still be targetable if they were the closest? Just position accordingly to avoid letting a character take advantage of this. Don't walk into the trap since you have a full movement phase to expect it.

exactly, the strat may very well force you to shake up your target priority, but I doubt it'll prevent you from shooting very often

Maybe I’m misreading it, but it says nothing within 6” can be shot unless the target is closer than the stratagemed unit, right? So you can stratagem a character and put the character in front. Then to protect the character you either keep him out of LoS or put another out of LoS unit closer than him so the char can’t be shot either.

So yeah, if you can swing around wide enough the char is no longer the closest you can avoid it, but that’s the only way to shoot. If they have a couple chars they can fairly easily cover multiple possible shooting angles and pick to strat vs whichever you came from.

Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face

bort wrote:
Maybe I’m misreading it, but it says nothing within 6” can be shot unless the target is closer than the stratagemed unit, right? So you can stratagem a character and put the character in front. Then to protect the character you either keep him out of LoS or put another out of LoS unit closer than him so the char can’t be shot either.

So yeah, if you can swing around wide enough the char is no longer the closest you can avoid it, but that’s the only way to shoot. If they have a couple chars they can fairly easily cover multiple possible shooting angles and pick to strat vs whichever you came from.

You have a whole deployment and movement phase to see the plan telegraphed before the Stratagem is even cast.

So just shoot everything not marked by it if you can't move in range. Or hide behind LoS yourself. Or move forward and punish that character for being out of position.

This isn't some silver bullet of awesome. It's powerful, but almost every meta list turns it off pretty quickly.

I think one of the bigger benefits of the stratagem is in its threat more than its use, especially if you can position some close in units well while keeping some backfield Devastators, each with a hard to hurt unit. Your opponent then has to change up their movement to hurt the close units and lose out on targeting the backfield units, or ignore the close units and let them advance unimpeded.

Khornatedemon wrote:
Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face

Saly's are proably gonna be most popular as sucessors with that added 3 inch range.

BrianDavion wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face

Saly's are proably gonna be most popular as sucessors with that added 3 inch range.

I'm really hoping theres a second part to the chapter tactic that does just that

Khornatedemon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face

Saly's are proably gonna be most popular as sucessors with that added 3 inch range.

I'm really hoping theres a second part to the chapter tactic that does just that

There's not going to be, and Salamanders will continue to be bad as usual.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face

Saly's are proably gonna be most popular as sucessors with that added 3 inch range.

I'm really hoping theres a second part to the chapter tactic that does just that

There's not going to be, and Salamanders will continue to be bad as usual.

sadly sallies two weapons of choice are both weapons that aren't that great this edition

Mandragola wrote:
I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.

Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.

That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.

6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.

Wrong thread, sorry.

 bullyboy wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.

Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.

That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.

6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.

How do you figure Aggressors are able to target units further away? They're all starting off at the same spot and Hurricane Bolters are firing their full 12 shots at the 24" mark.