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2019/09/21 14:56:17
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.
How do you figure Aggressors are able to target units further away? They're all starting off at the same spot and Hurricane Bolters are firing their full 12 shots at the 24" mark.
Being a DA player, never really looked at Cents, wasn't thinking about bolter discipline on a moving Cent. Flamers are wasted though (probably don't want to kill what you want to charge) but because of points, I think I'm still going to opt for Aggressors. They are a little more mobile too.
2019/09/21 15:56:24
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.
How do you figure Aggressors are able to target units further away? They're all starting off at the same spot and Hurricane Bolters are firing their full 12 shots at the 24" mark.
Being a DA player, never really looked at Cents, wasn't thinking about bolter discipline on a moving Cent. Flamers are wasted though (probably don't want to kill what you want to charge) but because of points, I think I'm still going to opt for Aggressors. They are a little more mobile too.
They're more mobile by themselves, but there's enough Strats and such (as well as Ravens existing) that I don't think it's an issue.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/09/21 19:27:40
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Xirax wrote: Anyone got experience in good all-primaris lists, I find it really hard to make it work more comp. Antitank/mobility issues.. tanks are super expensive if spammed, very hard to squeeze calgar even in 1,5k and 2k lists..
Probably best keep the all-primaris conversation in this tactica thread too?
I'll tell you how this did after a FLGS tourney coming up on Sat:
Sons of Medusa(basically just Iron Hands, been playing them since 5th edition) 1998 pts:
Pimaris Chaplain W/ Benediction of Fury, and Mantra of Strength.
3-man Eliminators w/Bolt Snipers
6-man Hellblasters w/Incinerators
Executioner w/heavy Las destroyer +rocket pod
Repulsor w/both Onslaghts, 4x fragstorm, 2x krakstorm, rocket pod, heavy stubber, and twin las.
Going to roll for warlord trait and powers, chaplain is warlord. Might swap benediction of fury for a different relic if I can get the supplement before the games.
Round 2 just finished. Michigan GT primer scenario 1 then 3, 5 is next.
Won round 1 vs genestealer cults. He null deployed and I won initiative letting him go first. Cut down most units with focus fire(forgetting to declare shots on multiple targets most of the time). I only lost 1 unit and a few models from some others. Bracketed one of the repulsors.
Tied second round vs chaos knights. Had 3 combat squads of intercessors left at end of game(on 2 objectives). He had 2 of 4 knights left.
Update: lost roumd 3 vs Orks. 3 mork/gorkanhauts(2 of one o e of other) snakebites. Mission type wouldn't allow me to concentrate fire and was outranged by a significant amount 27 vp differential. Roflstomped.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/21 22:57:41
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
2019/09/22 02:27:12
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
- Lord of Deceit to reposition the Eliminators and the Captain.
- Stealthy for better survivability
- +3 Range to better leverage Bolter Discipline and Stealthy
- Whirlwind to help against screens (shooting twice with Suppresion Fire Stratagem, if necessary)
- Might of Heroes to buff the Warsuit/Captain/Librarian when engaged in CC
I was thinking of getting another LT to cover more of the board with their aura or another Whirlwind to deal with GEQ.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/09/22 12:05:13
2019/09/22 13:22:55
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I'd say Thunderfire cannon over whirlwinds as they also have the tremmer shells slowing down those lists that want to rush you and can give your intercessors more time to chew through the chaff.
2019/09/22 13:58:29
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
- Lord of Deceit to reposition the Eliminators and the Captain.
- Stealthy for better survivability
- +3 Range to better leverage Bolter Discipline and Stealthy
- Whirlwind to help against screens (shooting twice with Suppresion Fire Stratagem, if necessary)
- Might of Heroes to buff the Warsuit/Captain/Librarian when engaged in CC
I was thinking of getting another LT to cover more of the board with their aura or another Whirlwind to deal with GEQ.
A few things:
1) Always give your intercessor sergeants chainswords if you aren't taking any of the other melee weapons. They are a free upgrade and give you extra attacks. The base kit doesn't come with them but chainsword bits aren't hard to find in old marine kits or on bitz stores.
2) I would give the phobos captain the vox espiritum and upgrade him to chapter master. Primaris captains with the vox relic are the best CMs for successors IMO. A 9" aura of reroll any hits is hard to pass up. Lord of Deceit is a nice trick but an obvious one. I have found for phobos captains specifically Marksman's Honours is a nice one since at 4 damage he can one shot a lot of support HQs with his gun. Though to be honest a lot of the SM warlord traits are rather good so use what you want.
3) I am not a huge fan of the instigator bolt carbine on eliminator sergeants myself. I have used eliminators a lot since shadowspear came out and they rarely get charged. It is usually rather easy to just screen them with other troops are just infiltrate them on the top floor of ruins.
4) If you are looking for another HQ to add to the list I would look at a more aggressive piece like a chaplain or captain. Take the old marine version and give them a jump pack or a bike if you want. There are a lot of good relic weapons and warlord traits you can give them with hero of the chapter.
Ice_can wrote: I'd say Thunderfire cannon over whirlwinds as they also have the tremmer shells slowing down those lists that want to rush you and can give your intercessors more time to chew through the chaff.
Agreed, Thunderfire cannons are great. The strat is brutal against the right opponent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/22 14:05:41
2019/09/22 14:19:23
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Great advice, I'll definitely change the Relic on the captain and make him the Chapter Master.
Lord of Deceit seems really strong to me, if used carefully. Being able to just redeploy pretty much anywhere on the table, coupled with the fact that Executioner Rounds don't need LOS and you getting free cover through Stealthy means you can pull off some nice shenanigans. If you play against the same opponents a lot, they will, of course, learn to anticipate this to some degree, but I really want to see how it plays out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/22 14:20:57
2019/09/22 14:56:59
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Do devastator centurions outperform boltstorm aggressors if you are playing iron hands?
Having them get the reroll of 1's for firing the heavy bolter as well as given it -2 AP seems to be really good. They still have a nasty amount of strength 4 shots too but I am mainly focusing on the buffs they receive from Iron hands and debating whether or not that puts them above aggressors in said list.
What do you all think? And don't forget the centurions ignore cover saves.
If aggressors are better despite these buffs I would prefer to take them as that would free up more heavy support slots for my army...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/22 14:58:15
2019/09/22 15:01:29
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
BrianDavion wrote: where you using the new iron hands codex supplement that game?
I was, but was not familiar enough with the strats to make very good use of them. Only one I used was the Iron Mind strat when my chaplain got hit with a weirdboy's smite.
The list was not tailored towards winning, more to see how it would do and I learned 2 things while getting another confirmed for me:
1) I need to study and use strats more often/more efficiently. I forgot all about Orbital bombardment until Turn 3 of my last game, and my warlord died litterally the fight phase before I was going to ise it(on the very last attack a morkanaught swung at him.
2) I don't have the mental endurance for a multi-day GT. By the end of the third game I was exhausted and my wife remarked that I was slurring slightly.
What I confirmed: Iron Hands supplement benefits old marines far more than primaris. You need the lascannons hidden in tac squads, moving and firing every turn. Most everything that oldmarines have are soo much better with the abilities and strats. And, while frighteningly resilient; 6+FNP is not at all game breaking.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: You were outranged/out gunned by orks?! Wow. Impressive.....
Edit:i released that sounded mean, i didn't mean it that way. I ment it as a compliment to the ork player. Not a diss on you K. Kel.
No offense taken, Ork player took top place. He had 3 ''anaughts and a SAG in a dreadwall formation. All well supported. He hid his grots and boyz, only da jump-ing his tank bustaz up turn 1 and using a strat to double fire. Between that, dakkadakkadakka, snakebites re-roll 1's to hit, and some exeptional luck he bracketed both repulsors first turn and threw enought 'anaught fire at each to get the last few wounds off of them(barely even wasting declared target shots).
He was a good player and surprisingly fun to play against while he tore my army apart.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Facisminthe41m wrote: Do devastator centurions outperform boltstorm aggressors if you are playing iron hands?
Having them get the reroll of 1's for firing the heavy bolter as well as given it -2 AP seems to be really good. They still have a nasty amount of strength 4 shots too but I am mainly focusing on the buffs they receive from Iron hands and debating whether or not that puts them above aggressors in said list.
What do you all think? And don't forget the centurions ignore cover saves.
If aggressors are better despite these buffs I would prefer to take them as that would free up more heavy support slots for my army...
-2 Ap is great for volume of fire anti-tank. My opponents learned to fear the onslaught gatlings.
But.
Points cost. You can get twice as many aggressors for 12 points more.
Neither really benefit much (in bolt armaments) from Iron Hands. Well.. Agressors somehow do. 222 points for 6 as a defensive position with 5+ double shots in overwatch. Cents naturally move and fire without penalty, but lascannon/missile cents benefit more from the -1 AP.
So in a question of small unit bolter beasts: Aggressors unless you really need the range.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/22 15:35:23
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
2019/09/22 17:27:32
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Aggressors also have power fists which allow them to fight better than cents either if they happen to get charged or if you want to try and finish off something that's in your lines.
The dev cents that intrigue me are grav with hurricanes. With that grav strat they can punish tough targets while still being able to put up a lot of anti infantry.
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz
2019/09/22 18:21:55
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I also think Grav might be the way to go for iron hands. They're the same price as heavy bolters.
For my Crimson Fists all kinds of centurions and aggressors look good. It's particularly nice that they ignore cover because it's like getting the benefit of both the Crimson and Imperial Fist chapters at once.
I'll have to wait and see what the super doctrine(s) is/are though. The rumour floating around is that heavy weapons will get +1 damage, which seems kind of insane - but GW are demonstrating a capacity to do insane stuff at the moment so who knows?
Assault centurions should always be considered too I think. They still have the hurricane bolters but matched up with flamers and those brutal drills. The damage those guys now hand out in melee is ludicrous and they're relatively cheap at 52 points. Three of them make a very interesting alternative to something like a redemptor.
2019/09/22 19:21:05
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
The rumour for IF is +1 dmg against vehicles (and buildings) in the dev doctrine, not just a flat +1 dmg. Although considering several of them are multi-faceted there might easily be more than 1 bonus
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/22 19:27:50
2019/09/23 00:33:01
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Anyone get any games this week with the shiny new IH or RG? Curious to see how people are doing with them before I decide what i want to do with my pile of SM stuff
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz
2019/09/23 00:37:29
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I've had a lot of good experiences recently with UM grav cents with hurricanes. The -1AP is more useful on the hurricanes than the extra ap on the grav cannon IME.
Other stuff which has been amazing: vox espiritum. Damn, 9" full re roll aura is literally insane. I'm gradually just dropping heavy weapons out of my list and relying on catechism of fire, seal of oath, rapid fire strat, marksmen strat on sternguard etc and taking down the big stuff through weight of fire. I also haven't seen people talking much about inceptors. I think a unit of 2 x 6 for 246pts per squad with the 3" extra range and tac doctine. Wow. 72 mobile S5 AP-2 shots. They just absolutely rinse stuff.
2019/09/23 01:44:18
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Khornatedemon wrote: Anyone get any games this week with the shiny new IH or RG? Curious to see how people are doing with them before I decide what i want to do with my pile of SM stuff
Tried a few of the Raven Guard strats and they're pretty baller. Nothing tried from Iron Hands yet.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/09/23 01:44:37
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Khornatedemon wrote: Anyone get any games this week with the shiny new IH or RG? Curious to see how people are doing with them before I decide what i want to do with my pile of SM stuff
I am also curious, got a pile of normal marines, techmarines and reg dreads, but looking to see where I go next.
2019/09/23 01:50:51
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Ice_can wrote: I'd say Thunderfire cannon over whirlwinds as they also have the tremmer shells slowing down those lists that want to rush you and can give your intercessors more time to chew through the chaff.
and he can proably snag the new Iron Hands char and mod him into a Primaris Tech marine (while using normal tech marine stats) to keep to the otherwise all Primaris theme.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/09/23 01:59:12
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Khornatedemon wrote: Anyone get any games this week with the shiny new IH or RG? Curious to see how people are doing with them before I decide what i want to do with my pile of SM stuff
I am also curious, got a pile of normal marines, techmarines and reg dreads, but looking to see where I go next.
TFire cannon is great for everyone and better for Iron Hands. Gunlines are semi-vulnerable to being overwhelmed by an alpha strike, but the ability to shut down movement on two otherwise fast units makes it much easier to protect yourself. (Plus, of course, you benefit from Devestator Doctrine.)
2019/09/23 05:37:51
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I'm sad they still left the Tremor strat to Thunderfire only. The Whirlwind is finally cheap enough to be worth using, but it's still flat out outclassed given the Thunderfire costs the same, shoots at the same efficiency, and has the strat too.
The decision between a hideable cannon vs a more durable vehicle chassis would be interesting if there was any reason to use the vehicle.
2019/09/23 06:25:51
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
The decision between a hideable cannon vs a more durable vehicle chassis would be interesting if there was any reason to use the vehicle.
I didnt know thunderfire cannons have 72" 2D3 shots at S7 AP-1 D2. Where does it say that ?
While the whirlwind has a slight damage boost against T6-7 vehicles vs the thunderfire, the difference is negligible enough to be functionally irrelevant (against T7 3+ save, the whirlwind does about 1.3 wounds per turn vs the 1.1 wounds of the Thunderfire). Against any other target, the Thunderfire performs better, partly thanks to its BS2+. The range difference is also pretty irrelevant, 60" on the TFC is long enough to hit just about anything on a 6x4 board.
So while you are correct that there is technically a difference between the shooting of a whirlwind and a TFC, the difference is small enough that arguing the point is not particularly meaningful. The reason that the TFC is practically an auto-take competitively, while the whirlwind is never seen, is that for 1CP the TFC provides a level of utility that vastly outstrips the damage potential of either unit. An argument could be made for the Whirlwind based on T7 saturation and board presence, but at that point I honestly think the points would be better spend on just about anything else. Indirect fire is valuable, but not that valuable, particularly since the new codex has so many ways to deliver damage where it's needed.
1st and 2nd Company - 5000pts
86th Ultramar Regiment - 4000pts
Hive Fleet Kraken - 3000pts
2019/09/23 13:12:21
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.
How do you figure Aggressors are able to target units further away? They're all starting off at the same spot and Hurricane Bolters are firing their full 12 shots at the 24" mark.
Being a DA player, never really looked at Cents, wasn't thinking about bolter discipline on a moving Cent. Flamers are wasted though (probably don't want to kill what you want to charge) but because of points, I think I'm still going to opt for Aggressors. They are a little more mobile too.
They're more mobile by themselves, but there's enough Strats and such (as well as Ravens existing) that I don't think it's an issue.
Turn 1 if the aggressors advance their threat range is 23+D6, but it's only single tap dakka
Double tap range is 18, 23 for ultra smurfs
Assault centurions threat range is 28" with the bolters.
Any stratagem that can get aggressors closer can get dev centurions closer.
The assault centurions are actually faster in the snail versus tortoise race.
The aggressors are a lot cheaper, and the centurions are even more obscene in CC.
The 2 flamers are not going to be used often, but that's because most opponents will not get near them. That makes the centurions an effective objective bully. Players might feed a squad into the flamers on occasion to make an objective grab, but for the most part nothing is going to go within 11" of them out of fear of the flamers or fear of the drills. Life is rough in ITC format when being bullied out of mid field.
Ultra smurf aggressors can move and double tap while their centurions gain nothing.
White scars are also not going to be using hurricane bolter centurions because of advance and charge, but assault centurions with only flamers would be a good candidate for outflank assaults with a chaplain assistance so both are good. That being said charging up with extra movement speed and advance should make aggressors the more popular option.
Imperial fists can siege breaker cohort the centurions and explode the bolter 6s so no contest.
I cannot call one of them a clear winner because so much changes between chapters. This is a good balance between 2 similar units.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
2019/09/23 13:20:44
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Cooking the Raven Guard book over the weekend, looking for synergies, and found some White Scars type possibilities.
The warlord trait Swift and Deadly obviously meshes with a bike captain, because he can always advance the full 20" and then charge.
And then, because it just applies for free to all the units within 6", you can pull some White Scars-style early turn charges with big units of bikes and/or scout bikes zooming across 20 or 22 inches, then assaulting.
It's less random than trying to chance all those 9" charges after infiltrating, and costs no CPs, although I would spend 1 to give the bike captain Shadowmaster as a second warlord trait.
It's too bad the Infiltrators strategem won't work on bikes, or that would be a seriously overpowered move-advance, then move-advance-assault in turn one if you went first (although Shining Spears do that all the time). But if you position the bike captain correctly, you should be able--when going first--to move-advance a unit of jump pack infantry with Infiltators, then move-advance-assault them turn one. Good way to put a big unit of Vanguard Vets in the backfield for one CP.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
2019/09/23 14:24:26
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Problem is other than the bike captain the bikers dont want to be in cc. Otherwise its not a bad idea.
As for the thunderfire vs whirlwind debate the thunderfire is the better unit in most armys very very slightly. Having said that there is something really cool about taking 2 thunderfire cannons and 3 whirlwinds in castellen mode. 4d3 str 5 ap-2 1dmg plus 6d6 str 6 ap-1 1dmg with no los needed is the perfect answer to almost any infantry issues you may run across. Leaves the other 1500 pts for anti tank rolls and objective securing.
2019/09/23 14:45:05
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Thinking of a dirty combo with the Iron Hands. Take a redemptor, give it March if the ancients, then the gorgon's chain relic, then pay another CP to give him the all flesh is weak warlord trait. Obviously near an ironstone holder. Now the redemptor is rocking a 4+ invul and -1 to wound at range with the usual dreadnought shennagins like halving damage with a 5+ fnp. Come at me bro indeed for only around 150pts of unkillable awesomeness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/23 14:48:29
buddha wrote: Thinking of a dirty combo with the Iron Hands. Take a redemptor, give it March if the ancients, then the gorgon's chain relic, then pay another CP to give him the all flesh is weak warlord trait. Obviously near an ironstone holder. Now the redemptor is rocking a 4+ invul and -1 to wound at range with the usual dreadnought shennagins like halving damage with a 5+ fnp. Come at me bro indeed for only around 150pts of unkillable awesomeness.
Unless I missed an iron hands only rule vehicals can't take relics.
2019/09/23 14:57:45
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
buddha wrote: Thinking of a dirty combo with the Iron Hands. Take a redemptor, give it March if the ancients, then the gorgon's chain relic, then pay another CP to give him the all flesh is weak warlord trait. Obviously near an ironstone holder. Now the redemptor is rocking a 4+ invul and -1 to wound at range with the usual dreadnought shennagins like halving damage with a 5+ fnp. Come at me bro indeed for only around 150pts of unkillable awesomeness.
Dreads cant take relics.
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz
1st and 2nd Company - 5000pts
86th Ultramar Regiment - 4000pts
