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Warnings have been issued, some cleaning has been done, I would kindly ask all participants to stick to the topic and to remain polite to one another at all times.

 Roboute wrote:

 ewar wrote:
Not sure if this is better in YMDC or not, but figured some here might know the answer.

Is there a way to get Guilliman into a SM army (that isn't a true blue UM) and keep the super doctrine?

Seems to really limit him if using him costs me my super doctrine, even as UM successor.

Honestly, Guilliman might not be worth it anymore in a pure UM list. The change to his aura and his warlord trait mean that taking him over Calgar+Lieutenant really hurts an army's CP pool, which is much more important now with all the great stratagems available. Pointswise, I think he's probably worth the 80 points over Calgar+Lieutenant if you need the extra beatstick, but the opportunity cost is just so high. Calgar can also utilize a stratagem for +3" aura range if necessary, which Guilliman lacks the keywords for.

Gman I think is mainly a fighter now. Sure he buffs your army but he really is a killer and you have to build your list to support that.. You can buff him up to 10 attacks with spells and relics and he can fight again. 20 attacks at str9 ap-4 flat 3 doing d3 mortals on 6+ if you use the attacks twice stratagem. Plus the 3+ attack bonus you can give him. both relics and MOH. I did the math and that will nearly kill 2 knights in 1 turn. Basically will kill any unit you put him into in that situation. Putting 2 knights that close together though would be a huge tactical error. Even fighting twice with 14 attacks will likely kill anything you come up against. Really no clue what to build around him though. He works pretty well with aggressors due to the +1 to advance and charge rolls but then what do you do against gunlines like tau and IG? Your just gonna get blown off the table before you get close...

Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.

For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.

For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.

Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)

So a question I've been mulling over is as follows:

I've been playing black painted marines for over 14 years (since I was 12), and own a bunch of other armies too. So I'm not bandwagoning on to the ironhands stuff. However, prior to the supplement release, I already owned 2 repulsor executioners and a leviathan. I play in a friendly group where people try to optimize their lists as much as possible, but its never cutting edge tournament stuff. My marines had been having a hard time winning for most of 8th. When I wanted to actually win I usually played one of my other armies. So when the iron hands wambo combo dropped, I tried it out for a couple games, did the bubble with the repulsors and leviathan and did very well, but it wasn't fun for anyone. However, I like having the option to consistently do well with marines. My question is how do I leverage the new rules to build a strong list (potentially as ironhands, but ultra is cool too), without making it a feels bad experience? I've always skewed towards running lot of vehicle with marines, even when it wasn't good, and iron hands are amazing for that, but I'm having a hard time building a well optimized force with them that isn't too strong for my group.

Dont play dreadnoughts, or when you do, dont use the stratagem to make them characters, or the one with half damage, dont give them warlord traits. Play mediocre vehicles like whirlwinds, predators, land speeders, land raiders. Dont play with the iron father. Dont use the iron stone.

rooster92 wrote:
So a question I've been mulling over is as follows:

I've been playing black painted marines for over 14 years (since I was 12), and own a bunch of other armies too. So I'm not bandwagoning on to the ironhands stuff. However, prior to the supplement release, I already owned 2 repulsor executioners and a leviathan. I play in a friendly group where people try to optimize their lists as much as possible, but its never cutting edge tournament stuff. My marines had been having a hard time winning for most of 8th. When I wanted to actually win I usually played one of my other armies. So when the iron hands wambo combo dropped, I tried it out for a couple games, did the bubble with the repulsors and leviathan and did very well, but it wasn't fun for anyone. However, I like having the option to consistently do well with marines. My question is how do I leverage the new rules to build a strong list (potentially as ironhands, but ultra is cool too), without making it a feels bad experience? I've always skewed towards running lot of vehicle with marines, even when it wasn't good, and iron hands are amazing for that, but I'm having a hard time building a well optimized force with them that isn't too strong for my group.

Don't play a parking lot.
Leverage the fact that Iron Hands are able to provide a mobile firebase and take their buffs with them. Build a rugged, durable army that can actually play to the mission - Deep strike in with Devestator squads in Drop Pods, for example, or take Razorbacks holding troops that can stay mobile and still lay down great dps. If you do run a parking lot, make it a small chunk of your army - The steel core that holds backfield objectives and lays down fire support while the rest of your army handles mobility and objective scoring.

Reasonable tips.

I do want to be able to use my shiny semi new repulsor executioners (put time and money in em). If I used the pair of them and a lascannon contemptor, bubbled up with chapter master and a regular techmarine and librarian (no iron father or ironstone) as my fire base, and then built the rest of list with plenty of infantry and more aggressive elements (maybe some drop in inceptors, and aircraft), would that seem still sporting but still strong you think?

Question: could the iron hand vehicle bubble work in combination with stormravens? Nothing that prevents them from hovering and getting repaired, right?

rooster92 wrote:Reasonable tips.

I do want to be able to use my shiny semi new repulsor executioners (put time and money in em). If I used the pair of them and a lascannon contemptor, bubbled up with chapter master and a regular techmarine and librarian (no iron father or ironstone) as my fire base, and then built the rest of list with plenty of infantry and more aggressive elements (maybe some drop in inceptors, and aircraft), would that seem still sporting but still strong you think?

Its toned down, but still strong.

shogun wrote:Question: could the iron hand vehicle bubble work in combination with stormravens? Nothing that prevents them from hovering and getting repaired, right?

Yes, it works.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.

For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.

Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)

Only a 5+ on enemy stratagem, which means that on many turns you will not get your CP back. There will be games where spending a CP on it will not even be a good idea.
You don't have a regen on your stratagems without grand strategist, especially one that goes on CP spent rather than on stratagem usage.

rooster92 wrote:
So a question I've been mulling over is as follows:

I've been playing black painted marines for over 14 years (since I was 12), and own a bunch of other armies too. So I'm not bandwagoning on to the ironhands stuff. However, prior to the supplement release, I already owned 2 repulsor executioners and a leviathan. I play in a friendly group where people try to optimize their lists as much as possible, but its never cutting edge tournament stuff. My marines had been having a hard time winning for most of 8th. When I wanted to actually win I usually played one of my other armies. So when the iron hands wambo combo dropped, I tried it out for a couple games, did the bubble with the repulsors and leviathan and did very well, but it wasn't fun for anyone. However, I like having the option to consistently do well with marines. My question is how do I leverage the new rules to build a strong list (potentially as ironhands, but ultra is cool too), without making it a feels bad experience? I've always skewed towards running lot of vehicle with marines, even when it wasn't good, and iron hands are amazing for that, but I'm having a hard time building a well optimized force with them that isn't too strong for my group.

I like to think of myself as a relatively hardcore tournament player, so here’s my advice on how to integrate into normal society.

Firstly, context matters. Talk to your opponents before the game about the kind of game you want. If you both want to bring your best possible lists and play ITC missions, go for it. If one of you wants to play a casual list then do that. Ultimately it’s not wrong to use a badass tournament list. What’s wrong is to inflict it on people who don’t want that kind of game.

Second, consider buying yourself a ticket to a tournament. I like them. You might, or might not, so give it a try. It’s fun to see how your theoretically good army does against people other than your usual opponents.

Third, get another repulsor executioner. I think they’re probably better in an IH list than the immortal leviathan - which I don't think is as dangerous. Then maybe some planes, TFCs and other ways to root out people who hide from your death bubble.

Have fun, and make sure your opponents do to.

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.

For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.

Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)

Only a 5+ on enemy stratagem, which means that on many turns you will not get your CP back. There will be games where spending a CP on it will not even be a good idea.
You don't have a regen on your stratagems without grand strategist, especially one that goes on CP spent rather than on stratagem usage.

Well, per 3 CP you're likely going to get one refunded. GMan gives you three off the bat being the Warlord, and the Loyal 32 is 5. Add whatever from the Knights (3 I think), and you get the Battleforged bonus which makes up for the CP to give Knights some toys.

It's tight for sure but that should be able to get you through a few turns, which is all that should be necessary for a Knight list. Any longer than that and things probably went bad.

shogun wrote:
Question: could the iron hand vehicle bubble work in combination with stormravens? Nothing that prevents them from hovering and getting repaired, right?

Yes, but I don't see why you would do that since Stormravens aren't all that durable without their -1 to hit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.

For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.

Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)

Yes 6" intervention. Just speaking about CP value. You are going to load your knights with relics and WL traits. Gotta take Ion bluwark and endless furry at least That cost 0 if you don't make Gman your warlord. Costs 2 if you do. Take another relic it cost 5 CP instead of 1. Because your free relic has to come from your warlord faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mostly, Roboute just became better in Knight lists already using him. For a pure Marine army, eh maybe you can make good use of the reroll bubble.

For sure. Overall Gman and knights is the list I had most success with all edition. The Gman price cut nearly makes up for the castellan nerf. I think I'd be more tempted to play a valiant and 2 crusaders with gman and a loyal 32. There is a slight nerf though...He no longer brings along the 5+ to regen CP. That was a pretty huge factor. In including him. He has to be your warlord to get 3 CP at game start...It might not be worth doing that anymore as you also lose your free relic if you warlords detachment has no place to put a relic. So really its not worth it to make him warlord anymore. 6 inch heroic isn't terrible but in that list architype nothing really is willingly going to attack you other than a captain smash in CC anyways.

Guard can get the regen for the CP with a Relic, can't they? GMan brings a different tool with his Warlord trait (doesn't he get the 6" intervention?)

Only a 5+ on enemy stratagem, which means that on many turns you will not get your CP back. There will be games where spending a CP on it will not even be a good idea.
You don't have a regen on your stratagems without grand strategist, especially one that goes on CP spent rather than on stratagem usage.

Well, per 3 CP you're likely going to get one refunded. GMan gives you three off the bat being the Warlord, and the Loyal 32 is 5. Add whatever from the Knights (3 I think), and you get the Battleforged bonus which makes up for the CP to give Knights some toys.

It's tight for sure but that should be able to get you through a few turns, which is all that should be necessary for a Knight list. Any longer than that and things probably went bad.

Knight lance with 3 knights is 6 CP.

Gman, loyal 32, and Knight lance starts with a hefty 17 CP.

Waaaghpower wrote:

shogun wrote:
Question: could the iron hand vehicle bubble work in combination with stormravens? Nothing that prevents them from hovering and getting repaired, right?

Yes, but I don't see why you would do that since Stormravens aren't all that durable without their -1 to hit.

You could deploy way back and fly towards the iron hand parking lot bubble. You would still keep -1 to hit and get 5+ inv save and -1 damage. Airborne doesn't prevent him from getting bubble bonuses, right?

Could even give it +1 save with the iron hand psyker. Next turn hover down and repair the sucker. It would function as a gunboat and at any time it could move forward and take the field, deploy stuff whatever.

Looking for some advice.

I'm playing in a 2000pts doubles tournament on Dec 1st, and my team mate is bringing all of the anti tank. Restrictions include:

No LoW
Single detatchment only
Rule of 3 in effect
Detatchment CP is for your individual army only
Battleforged CP is split between both players
+1 CP for a battle ready painted force
Chapter Approved 2018 missions
One warlord from the team to be designated Force Commander for the "slay the warlord" objective

So, its up to me to bring the anti infantry, and I've decided to go full Primaris. I've decided against a known chapter and made my own dudes with Rapid Assault and Stoic. Firstly, every gun in my list is Assault, so being mobile and during at ful BS is nice. And being able to ignore 1 and 2's to wound regardless of modifiers makes them harder to shift.

The list


For relics I've given my Lieutenant an invulnerable save as it helps in survivability in case of a lucky lascannon hit etc. And I've used 1CP to give him a 6+++ too.
Agressors with flamestorm gauntlets are a must as the tournament will include at least 4-5 players who run plaguebarer mobs so the auto hits will be vital (and powerfistshelp in the anti tank role if needed)
Assault bolters offer incredible Dakka and also will allow me to keep moving.
Lastly, assault bolter inceptors unleash rediculous a mounts of shots, and they eat light vehicles and infantry blobs for breakfast. Also, I've found them excellent character assassins due to the small footprint catching people out.

Rapid assault is ok, but stalwart isnt a good choice. A 1 to wound always fails, and 2s would require a S8/10 weapon to hit your dudes with T4/5. Those weapons are anti armor and will hit your partners vehicles. If you use bolter fusillades you get to re-roll 1s for all bolt weapons, and you have a lot of those. That includes your inceptors, which will deepstrike, i think. You wouldnt need a captain for the re-rolls of 1s, and could replace him with a librarian, for example. And dont use flamestorm gauntlets, flamers suck. Use boltstorm instead, which may count as a bolt weapon for bolter fusillades, not sure. I dont have the SM codex.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Looking for some advice.

So, firstly, which Chapter are you a Successor of? That will determine which "super doctrine" you get the benefit of. Certainly you'll want to be either Raven Guard or Ultramarines, because of their synergies with Tactical Doctrine.

Stalwart is indeed pretty terrible. I would suggest either Whirlwind of Rage or Hungry for Battle - your list clearly wants to get right up in the face of your enemy. Might as well make them a little better at fighting, or getting in there. I quite like Hungry for Battle with deepstriking elements, for the 8" charge.

Another option would be Long-Range Marksmen. The increased range on flamers is enormous.

Whirlwind of rage isn't the best idea when he wants to advance. He can't charge afterwards.

 p5freak wrote:
Whirlwind of rage isn't the best idea when he wants to advance. He can't charge afterwards.

Which means White Scars are back at it.

Played a practice tournament today with Iron Hands, learned some useful things. He had three knights (A castellan, a valiant, and a crusader) and I had a parking lot and a drop pod.

Firstly, I was sloppy with my drop pod placement and he was able to charge it with his knight, making it impossible for me to shoot at it for a turn. Note to self: Be careful with drop pod placement.

I also screwed up in deployment, forgetting that I'd changed my ironstone from my librarian to my techmarine. I ended up rolling ridiculously well on my saves, though, which cancelled out the extra damage I took from the screwup.

All in all:
Any assaulting units that can close and get into cqc are a huge problem. I ended up losing the game, in part because of sloppy play, but in part because I got tied up and didn't have a recourse. Spreading out would have been a better call for me.

Chaplains are awesome if you can get the +1 to wound against a valuable target.

Feirros's most useful ability is his three wound healing. The 5+ invuln helped a little, and the Signum Array came up a couple times, but that 6 wounds per turn with a CP ended up being invaluable.

The "Recover a CP on a 5+" relic is going to be an auto-take. No surprises there.

Having the parking lot able to move around a bit is useful, but I should have taken better advantage of it. Specifically, I deployed forward because I wanted to be in range, but then didn't get first turn and he was able to close on me faster than I could deal with. Deploying back and then moving forward would have payed off a lot better.

Scouts didn't really pay off, but that's too be expected with this particular matchup. I want to play with them a couple more times to see if they have a use against different armies.

My tactical marines, on the other hand, *were* pretty useful. 85pts a squad, and they provided handy screens and were able to pop off some wounds here and there. (The biggest benefit, of course, was just the CPs they brought me.)

I had a thunderfire cannon, but used it poorly. I didn't think shutting down the movement on the knights was all that important. *Boy* was I wrong.

All in all, it was a very good learning experience. I think the army is strong, but it's not unbeatable. I need to work on my maneuvering and deployment to get the most out of IH.

So now that we lose so much for not being pure marines,(though I prefer that way already) are there any super heavy tanks that are worth using (and buying)? I am looking at the Falchion and Astreaus right now, but not sure if they are competitive in my local meta where knights and baneblades are becoming more prevalent.

Last I checked none of the Super Heavy tanks were any good. They were priced out of competitive play it seems.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Last I checked none of the Super Heavy tanks were any good. They were priced out of competitive play it seems.

The Spartan still seems reasonably viable if you were already going to take a pair of Land Raiders but wanted to smoosh them together.

So what are the best tools for Raven Guard to use to take out super heavies?

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So what are the best tools for Raven Guard to use to take out super heavies?

What kind of Super Heavies? Taking out a Knight requires very different tools to taking out a Baneblade.

TFCs can't shut down knights movement fyi..

We have one player who plays pure knights, two with a baneblade, and one with a spartan, a levi, and a sicarian. (the last three aren't supeheavy I know, but they are IH, at least until/unless Fists are better.) A few others bring knights sometimes, and one who will be getting Mortarion.