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 Flavius Infernus wrote:
So just to be sure I'm reading this straight:

If I know I'm going first (as in many ITC missions) and I have some Raven Guard JP infantry, like say Vanguard Vets, I can make this Vanguard Bomb:
1. Use Master of Ambush to redeploy my Vanguard unit anywhere on the table more than 9" from enemy models. (The character with the power can go with them, but doesn't have to.)
2. Use Infiltrators stratagem to move and advance 13-18" before turn one, jumping over terrain, screens, etc.
3. Move and advance normally, 13-18" in turn one, jumping over terrain, screens, etc.
4. Use Strike from the Skies stratagem to charge, with +1 to the charge roll, also optionally using The Raven's Blade stratagem for a charge reroll if I feel like I need it.

If you roll straight 1s on your advance and charge dice, that's a minimum 29" of movement from your starting place 9" from the initial enemy model. With average rolls that's 39" of move & charge. All for 2-4 CP and a warlord power.

Am I missing something? Can this even be screened against? For a big unit of Vanguard with Thunderhammers, is even Fierros safe?

1. Master of Ambush also has to be 9 inches from their deployment zone. This matters if they don't deploy right at the edge.
2. As noted, this can be combo'ed with Master of Ambush, but you still have to end 9 inches away from enemy models.
3. Jump pack infantry will be very hard to screen against, as you've noted.
4. This will be situational, depending on whether you need to advance in the movement phase or not. You can also find other ways of rerolling charges, such as Shrike.

I'm planning on something similar to this, but the character that will be granting the Master of Ambush Warlord trait will be a jump chaplain with the Canticle of Hate. Not only will he be granting +2 to charges, he'll be granting 6 inch pile in and consolidates. Then consider the fight twice strategim so that even the repulsor wall will not stop it.

Yeah it’s a valid approach. The discussion seems to mainly centre around which character to use and which unit to send with them.

Personally I think it looks like Assault Centurions will be the best option, basically because they’re the most powerful infantry you can get. I can’t see many screening units living through 72 bolter shots and a load of flamers – plus whatever the rest of your army does. 6 of them only cost 312 points, bizarrely, so even with the character you’re probably looking at about 400 points. You might actually want some melta guns in the unit to fire at things like Eldar planes if they try to screen you out.

And I like the idea of a chaplain to go with them. That +2” to charge power is excellent, especially since it lets you consolidate 6”. You have a great chance of being able to wrap things. This move alone probably ends games if you get into something like an IG gunline or Tau.

For jump infantry, smash captains and the like I think I’d probably deploy normally and then launch forwards with the Infiltrators strat. I think a smash captain with the warlord trait to negate overwatch could be really useful if you want to get into melee with things like eldar planes or repulsors.

Ooh, dang it, when I added the 2nd jump Captain to my list with Teeth I forgot the Chaplain’s bonus also affects pile in and consolidates. I’m not keen on relying on his positioning and a 3+ roll to get that +2” to charge, so think will use the +1” chapter trait either way, but it’s tempting to swap out the captain for the chaplain. Basically trading 4 str5 2dmg character attacks for the aura to help get the Aggressors in and saving a cp from Teeth. I don’t think the Benediction of Fury would be worth it for a regular Chaplain not running mantra of Strength when I have so many uses for cps.
Edit: I doubt I’d use the cp still, but actually this is one of the few cases I’d consider using the Silentus Pistol. Benediction would make the Chaplain’s 4 swings dmg 3. Silentus would add 2 str 5 dmg2 shots that can hit characters. That’s like the same damage bonus, but gives range.

Right, also missed the 9" from deployment zone in Master of Ambush. I must be slipping.

I was looking for an alternative to the high-cost, deathbomb of centurions or aggressors--with a character--as an option for an army that's not really built around spending a lot of points and CPs for that. I'll have Vanguards anyway as a countercharge unit, so I was thinking this was a way to have an option for them that wouldn't cost more than 2-3 CPs or need a sacrificial character.

I can still use some of these strats situationally, or just as a deterrent, with my VV unit without having to build the army around an all-or-nothing unit that costs hundreds of points.

I used RG alphastrike units in 7th, but I didn't like the randomness of having to come up with the die rolls for long charges, psychic powers, or--in this version--chaplain litanies. So I'm trying to find options that minimize the random elements.

Just paying 1cp to have them move 12+d6 before turn 1 is really nice. I pay 2cp to do the same with my DC in BA. Ofc I can get within 9" with that move but I usually fall just short of that. But after that you can advance and still charge with your VV and get +1 to charges. That is even better than what Death Company gets.

12+d6 before turn 1. 12"+d6"+2d6"+1" on turn 1. That is far. You can even use a reroll for that advance if it would allow you to jump over a screen since you still can charge with the strat.

Looking for some more Anti tank options for my list. Has anyone had any good experience with las fusil squads of eliminators? Or is it better to keep them with sniper rifles and look elsewhere?

How do you guys interpret strike from the shadows and infiltrators?

1. Can I use as many CP I want because it's before first turn?

2. If so, I can but as many units in deepstrike as I want?

3. Can I deepstrike these "strike from the shadows" units T1?

I believe that smart people that did the math on Las Fusils vs Bolt Sniper Rifles found that there was very little difference between the two when you use the Sgt. for the +1 to hit and wound.

Edit to Xirax:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Unless a rule specifically says that you can come in turn 1, I would assume the standard turn 2-3 deployment.

bmsattler wrote:
I believe that smart people that did the math on Las Fusils vs Bolt Sniper Rifles found that there was very little difference between the two when you use the Sgt. for the +1 to hit and wound.

It should be if you account for point costs since the las fusil does a bit more damage but also costs more. I would take the bolt rifles everytime since they are better against more targets than the las fusils

Facisminthe41m wrote:
Looking for some more Anti tank options for my list. Has anyone had any good experience with las fusil squads of eliminators? Or is it better to keep them with sniper rifles and look elsewhere?

I've played against Eliminators in two games so far. In both games the player deployed them too far forward, and I shot them off the board in turn 1. I also saw a battle report online where somebody deployed the Eliminators too far forward, and they were shot off the board in turn 1.

But even if they weren't too far forward, anything like a whirlwind or thunderfire can cripple or destroy the unit in turn 1. Even with the RG strats and camo, a TFC in turn one is hitting them on 3s, wounding on 3s, and getting the devastator doctrine -2 AP that negates their cover/camo.

Is it just me, or is 3 models just too small of a unit, even with 2 wounds each? I don't know how anybody is making Eliminators work

Klickor wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
I believe that smart people that did the math on Las Fusils vs Bolt Sniper Rifles found that there was very little difference between the two when you use the Sgt. for the +1 to hit and wound.

It should be if you account for point costs since the las fusil does a bit more damage but also costs more. I would take the bolt rifles everytime since they are better against more targets than the las fusils

But how about the instigator bolt rifle? Atleast I've used the sergeant for +1 BS.. but actually as we play ground floors of buildings block line of sight, I haven't ever managed to have the free move against charges, because my gaming group interprets that you need LoS against the charging target. So for example orks just come in range, charge through building walls/1st floors of Ruins and I can't use the ability to withdraw.. btw, is this normal interpretation?

 Crimson wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.

Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!

Even nastier on an centurian sargent IMO. Both are pretty gross though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.

Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!

Even nastier on an centurian sargent IMO. Both are pretty gross though.

I believe there's an FAQ stating it only applies to one part of the weapon-Shooting or Melee.

It applies to both shooting parts of a combi, if I remember correctly, though, so it's EXTRA confusing.

Yeah, they faqed the mastercrafting to only apply to 1 profile, unfortunately.

However, what they didn’t faq away is if the bolter fusillade trait also applies to the boltstorm guantlets. As written it does, which is a nice bonus if you ever wanted to heavy go Aggressors and not worry about captains.

Xirax wrote:
But how about the instigator bolt rifle? Atleast I've used the sergeant for +1 BS.. but actually as we play ground floors of buildings block line of sight, I haven't ever managed to have the free move against charges, because my gaming group interprets that you need LoS against the charging target. So for example orks just come in range, charge through building walls/1st floors of Ruins and I can't use the ability to withdraw.. btw, is this normal interpretation?

If you mean that you need LOS to overwatch against a charging target, then yes that is standard. If you mean that you have to have LOS to charge something, that is not how the rules read.

Your Eliminators shouldn't be on the first floor. They want good LOS. A tactic that I heard on a podcast recently is to post the eliminators on the 2'nd floor and put scouts below them to keep people off of them for another turn. You could also put the eliminators just in front of the building and fall back into it with the retreat-overwatch fire. You could even fall back up into the 2n'd floor if you had enough movement. To take it one step further, Scouts+Eliminators+Smash Captain makes a blob that people don't want to get very close to. Good for holding an objective.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.

Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!

Even nastier on an centurian sargent IMO. Both are pretty gross though.

I believe there's an FAQ stating it only applies to one part of the weapon-Shooting or Melee.

It applies to both shooting parts of a combi, if I remember correctly, though, so it's EXTRA confusing.

Just saying - 12 bolter shots with ignore cover and flat 2 damage is overall better than the aggressor sargent who only gets 12 shots if he didn't move AND doesn't naturally get ignore cover.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.

Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!

Even nastier on an centurian sargent IMO. Both are pretty gross though.

I believe there's an FAQ stating it only applies to one part of the weapon-Shooting or Melee.

It applies to both shooting parts of a combi, if I remember correctly, though, so it's EXTRA confusing.

Just saying - 12 bolter shots with ignore cover and flat 2 damage is overall better than the aggressor sargent who only gets 12 shots if he didn't move AND doesn't naturally get ignore cover.

Some of us didn't abandon Ultramarines for a Iron Hands parking lot

bmsattler wrote:

Xirax wrote:
But how about the instigator bolt rifle? Atleast I've used the sergeant for +1 BS.. but actually as we play ground floors of buildings block line of sight, I haven't ever managed to have the free move against charges, because my gaming group interprets that you need LoS against the charging target. So for example orks just come in range, charge through building walls/1st floors of Ruins and I can't use the ability to withdraw.. btw, is this normal interpretation?

If you mean that you need LOS to overwatch against a charging target, then yes that is standard. If you mean that you have to have LOS to charge something, that is not how the rules read.

Your Eliminators shouldn't be on the first floor. They want good LOS. A tactic that I heard on a podcast recently is to post the eliminators on the 2'nd floor and put scouts below them to keep people off of them for another turn. You could also put the eliminators just in front of the building and fall back into it with the retreat-overwatch fire. You could even fall back up into the 2n'd floor if you had enough movement. To take it one step further, Scouts+Eliminators+Smash Captain makes a blob that people don't want to get very close to. Good for holding an objective.

Thanks for ideas. I build my RG as primaris, but I get the point. I've (re)deployed (master of deceit as non WL WT) my two eliminator squads with my phobos cpt in a ruin that the cpt is visible on top floor to use ex tenubris, but eliminators have been closer to enemy on ground floor and use those rounds tou don't need LoS. Your suggestion is more aggresive, but enemy can shoot at them.

bort wrote:
Yeah, they faqed the mastercrafting to only apply to 1 profile, unfortunately.

However, what they didn’t faq away is if the bolter fusillade trait also applies to the boltstorm guantlets. As written it does, which is a nice bonus if you ever wanted to heavy go Aggressors and not worry about captains.

Mastercrafting can apply to more than one profile. It's more confusing than that. They told us that boltstorm gauntlets (shooting) and boltstorm guantlets (melee) are in fact different weapons despite the same name.

Fair point, it won’t apply to both a melee and a ranged profile, but will work for all ranged profiles or all melee profiles of the same weapon, if I recall.

Xirax wrote:
Thanks for ideas. I build my RG as primaris, but I get the point. I've (re)deployed (master of deceit as non WL WT) my two eliminator squads with my phobos cpt in a ruin that the cpt is visible on top floor to use ex tenubris, but eliminators have been closer to enemy on ground floor and use those rounds tou don't need LoS. Your suggestion is more aggresive, but enemy can shoot at them.

Infiltrators would work better than scouts, though they are also more expensive. And they would be redundant with the phobos captain. I keep forgetting that Eliminators have the out of LOS option, and that's certainly valid. I would stay away from the bolt carbines if you're going to be out of LOS though. You'll get another shot as opposed to the 'run away when charged' option that you don't get anyway if you don't have LOS.

I think it should just be rifles for eliminators. They’re cheapest and I haven’t hear anyone say the fall back thing worked. It would be particularly useless if upstairs in a ruin, since you probably couldn’t increase your distance from a flying attacker by all that much anyway. Not everything can fly but enough things can to make it even less worthwhile to try and run when there’s nowhere to go.

At 24ppm eliminators aren’t much more expensive than intercessors. They are somewhat tougher and shoot quite well but losing s unit isn’t too bad. I think they seem good for ravenguard, as they’ll be hard to hit and can do great work against characters. They fill out brigades nicely too. Definitely not an essential unit though.

I've used eliminators a few times in small games and I've not really been that impressed with them really. They do have a use but their damage output per turn is small.
I think however I have used them poorly sometimes, I have often used their ability to infiltrate and put them a bit forward and they just end up dying.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I've used eliminators a few times in small games and I've not really been that impressed with them really. They do have a use but their damage output per turn is small.
I think however I have used them poorly sometimes, I have often used their ability to infiltrate and put them a bit forward and they just end up dying.

they should always be deplyoed in cover. and yeah, they're going to attract a lot of attention. so many armies are dependant on command auras and character buffs a good sniper unit is going to be a target. I'm thinking they might work well along side an Invictor acting as a distraction carnifex

So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.

Most riptides will have skyfire ability. So it would be on 5's. Or 4's if they mark you with fireblades and d3 markers stratagem. Long strike will also still hit on you 2's rerolling 1's with 5 markers.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.

I think Iron Hand Storm Hawks are a sleeper hit. It's already incredibly hard to deal with the executioner castle. How much worse is it with three fighter planes zooming around?

I think they're significantly better than Storm Talons. That random extra -1 to hit works against a large amount of the current meta, as fly is generally awesome otherwise, so is very popular.

Storm Hawks are also great for hunting things like harlequin haywire bikers, which are one of the bigger threats to executioners. They can dodge incoming fire and then spray and pray at the harlequins.

I'm not sure what weapons to give them. I generally prefer the las talon and typhoon to the dedicated AA options, but the talon is way more expensive than the icarus stormcannon. I think the typhoon missile launcher probably is worth the extra points over skyhammer missiles, though the difference isn't huge. A pair of heavy bolters actually looks like a decent option too. It's actually hard to decide, which is probably a good thing. It shows that the different options are probably more or less balanced.

I just did a bit of quick adding up and this list is possible at 2k:

Battalion of Primaris Captain (with just a gun) lieutenant and 3x5 intercessors

Spearhead of Feirros and 3 fully loaded HLC repulsor executioners

Flyer wing of 3 storm hawks, all with stormcannons and either skyhammer or heavy bolters.

That came to exactly 2k. I think it looks like a very harsh army to go up against. It's light on objective holders but I think it would do horrible things to most armies. I'm not sure whether the captain is the right pick but I think it could be well worth having a chapter master, just to take the option of charging a repulsor right off the table. A Chaplain with the relic crozuis as a counter-attacking beatstick would be an alternative. A Phobos captain would be a great option too, though you'd need to find some points.

You have the option of swapping out a plane if you want. Something like a TFC, invictor or dread could still be really helpful. If you freed up some points to get an infiltrator squad or two instead of intercessors I think you'd do well, but on the other hand the three planes would be seriously hard to deal with.

Shame the army doesn't quite fit inside its own transports. That's obviously of no meaningful effect in game, but it would be kind of cool. Feirros can probably be mag-locked to the outside of a Repulsor.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.

Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!

Even nastier on an centurian sargent IMO. Both are pretty gross though.

I believe there's an FAQ stating it only applies to one part of the weapon-Shooting or Melee.

It applies to both shooting parts of a combi, if I remember correctly, though, so it's EXTRA confusing.

Just saying - 12 bolter shots with ignore cover and flat 2 damage is overall better than the aggressor sargent who only gets 12 shots if he didn't move AND doesn't naturally get ignore cover.

Some of us didn't abandon Ultramarines for a Iron Hands parking lot

Aggressors are also naturally more mobile without the need for strats or transports. They basically move 9" a turn and still pop off 6+D6 shots. That value doesn't work for someone building straight parking lot though.

Mandragola wrote:
just did a bit of quick adding up and this list is possible at 2k:

That’s a nasty list! I would not want to face that. Thoughts on the HQ discussion - make sure the Ironstone holder is durable enough to sniping. Lots of wounds, good save and an invulnerable. Chaplain probably isn’t beefy enough for that.

Also, the theoryhammer folks online seem to like a ten man intercessor squad, so that that “grot shield” / “savior protocol” type strat can keep Feirros and the Ironstone holder around even longer. Of course if your list did that points would have to be cut from somewhere.

Stavkat wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
just did a bit of quick adding up and this list is possible at 2k:

That’s a nasty list! I would not want to face that. Thoughts on the HQ discussion - make sure the Ironstone holder is durable enough to sniping. Lots of wounds, good save and an invulnerable. Chaplain probably isn’t beefy enough for that.

Also, the theoryhammer folks online seem to like a ten man intercessor squad, so that that “grot shield” / “savior protocol” type strat can keep Feirros and the Ironstone holder around even longer. Of course if your list did that points would have to be cut from somewhere.

Yeah the list might be better if you only had two planes, some other cheaper thing like an Invictor, Redemptor or TFC instead of the third, and used the spare points to beef up the HQs. A Gravis captain might be the best guy to give the Ironstone and he could give a little bit of melee strength too.

I don’t know though. 3 planes are just so much harder to deal with than 2. If you come up against a ton of snipers then your Ironstone guy might die, but not a lot can quickly snipe a Primaris character who’s out of LoS – especially with some nearby intercessors to tank hits for him. I'm just not sure it's feasible to snipe the guy without spending so many points on snipers that you'd have nothing left to kill the planes and executioners with anyway.