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2019/10/20 21:08:26
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mandragola wrote: Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Better show that off when you're done.
Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.
I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.
And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.
To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
And the fist of Vengeance really helps a lot. You're probably playing a kind of gunline. Having your captain not just give rerolls but also pop out and smash a knight is seriously good. An IF gunline is a bit less able to punch back if the enemy gets to them.
I think Tor Garadon fits into the "punching back" role quite literally. Yes, he only gives Captain rerolls (but Signum array!) but few characters are able to buff and deal the smackity to a Knight as well as him without Stratagem expense.
Plus, the Special issue Power Fist (that IF has access to, too) is almost as good as the Fist of Vengeance, isn't it?
2019/10/21 00:12:32
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Crimson Fists do not have access to the siegebreaker cohort which really hurts them as it's a massively powerful tool for the Imperial Fists.
It wont last long. It was not written with the current Imperial fists rules in mind. Cents got buffed both offensive and defensively and it was already stupid powerful.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/10/21 03:54:33
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
Orks don't care one whiff about ignore cover. 6 to 5 isn't woith it anyway with cover(and ignored anyway) and fitting entire unit into cover is hopeless anyway
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/10/21 05:17:35
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
Orks don't care one whiff about ignore cover. 6 to 5 isn't woith it anyway with cover(and ignored anyway) and fitting entire unit into cover is hopeless anyway
The 5+ matters quite a lot for a 7 point model, and it counters both Blood Axes and to a lesser extent Deffskulls (as anything in cover will be forced into its 6++ a lot quicker).
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/10/21 05:22:01
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Not when -1 is so common and -2 is pretty much baseline for marines. And even if you run into army against AP0(so IG or other orks basically...) you don't fit into terrain to begin with.
And blood axes? Sure if we want to consider super hyper casual enviroment but then you don't talk about is crimson fist or imperial fist better. Opponent isn't even trying to win either.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/10/21 05:30:24
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
tneva82 wrote: Not when -1 is so common and -2 is pretty much baseline for marines. And even if you run into army against AP0(so IG or other orks basically...) you don't fit into terrain to begin with.
And blood axes? Sure if we want to consider super hyper casual enviroment but then you don't talk about is crimson fist or imperial fist better. Opponent isn't even trying to win either.
...which only would happen in the range of Rapid Fire, where Orks want to be to do some charging. Also Blood Axes aren't exactly the best but definitely a better choice than Snakebites or Goffs without Ghaz.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/10/21 05:53:14
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
1. So CF are a better counter to Orks than IF. Oh, that's so against the background! -_-
2. I didn't know Orks were a meta defining top army. As you are using them as your main argument to talk down IF, I would expect that to be the case.
2019/10/21 08:46:17
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
DanielFM wrote: 1. So CF are a better counter to Orks than IF. Oh, that's so against the background! -_-
2. I didn't know Orks were a meta defining top army. As you are using them as your main argument to talk down IF, I would expect that to be the case.
I'd say the real argument in favour of Crimson Fists over Imperial Fists is that they gain more options from the book than the parent chapter does. It really is kind of surprising that there's simply more in that supplement for a successor than there is for the parent. And it resulted in IF having fewer options than the other supplement chapters since CF can use all the IF things, but the opposite isn't true.
GW kind of messed up here I think.
2019/10/21 09:11:18
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
DanielFM wrote: 1. So CF are a better counter to Orks than IF. Oh, that's so against the background! -_-
2. I didn't know Orks were a meta defining top army. As you are using them as your main argument to talk down IF, I would expect that to be the case.
Hordes generally are meta defining. Plaguebearers and bloodletters, for example. GSC are a top tier army too.
I’ve played using crimson fists at high level tournaments, using the WD rules. It definitely felt like a step up from the previous CTs. I particularly like that it works in the assault phase too.
Edit: I’m not claiming I did all that well. It was a solid 3:2 list. But now I have a lot of new toys.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/21 09:15:06
2019/10/21 10:11:57
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I dont think hordes will be as meta defining now that we have so much marines. With 25-50% of the meta being marines hordes wont have it that easy with all the improved bolters that will be everywhere. And removing marines in cover will be what IF does best. Intercessors with 2+ in cover dies unless making a 6+ save against IF Stalker intercessors.
Having troops with str 4 ap3 d 2-3 36" that ignore cover and gives extra hits on 6s is gonna be really good against the new meta.
2019/10/21 10:25:48
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Hi lads, quick question. Can you perform a heroic intervention after assault disembarking + moving from impulsor? I know the rule says you cant charge but as far as I know HI doesnt count as a charge. Thanks!
2019/10/21 10:48:51
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I don't think you can Heroic Intervention on your own turn. But you could get out, and wait around for an enemy unit to get close enough on their turn.
2019/10/21 11:02:03
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
bmsattler wrote: I don't think you can Heroic Intervention on your own turn. But you could get out, and wait around for an enemy unit to get close enough on their turn.
My mistake. I think you are right abt that
2019/10/21 14:16:18
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Under Battlescribe, the warlord trait 'Marksman's Honors' indicates that it works with chapter relics. This is not what the codex Space Marines says. I haven't been able to find an FAQ that changes the codex's wording. I understand that Battlescribe is not an official source, but I wanted to check with people to see if I'm missing a change that was made.
2019/10/21 14:30:47
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
bmsattler wrote: Under Battlescribe, the warlord trait 'Marksman's Honors' indicates that it works with chapter relics. This is not what the codex Space Marines says. I haven't been able to find an FAQ that changes the codex's wording. I understand that Battlescribe is not an official source, but I wanted to check with people to see if I'm missing a change that was made.
Battlescribe is a great way to produce an illegal army list and get confused over rules. I'm amazed it's so popular. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "but battlescribe says..."
2019/10/21 14:49:01
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
bmsattler wrote: Under Battlescribe, the warlord trait 'Marksman's Honors' indicates that it works with chapter relics. This is not what the codex Space Marines says. I haven't been able to find an FAQ that changes the codex's wording. I understand that Battlescribe is not an official source, but I wanted to check with people to see if I'm missing a change that was made.
Battlescribe is a great way to produce an illegal army list and get confused over rules. I'm amazed it's so popular. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "but battlescribe says..."
Its a great way to quickly build lists, which is someone annoying thing to do now that points are no longer listed in the unit entries.
It is however important to always double check everything with a codex if your taking the list anywhere outside a casual environment and it is most certainly not an alternative to the actual rules because, as you said, it gets things wrong.
That said, if you find things wrong please report it so that it can be fixed.
2019/10/21 15:01:08
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mandragola wrote: Battlescribe is a great way to produce an illegal army list and get confused over rules. I'm amazed it's so popular. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "but battlescribe says..."
It's not so much that BattleScribe is the best option, more that it's basically the only decent 40k army list builder out there. I'm consistently amazed that GW hasn't put together an official list builder, as there's a massive demand for one.
2019/10/21 16:52:37
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Yeah, I wouldnt even bother playing 8th edition if it wasnt for battlescribe. Tried using multiple books just to see how many points I had if I wanted to play against. Gave up due to the hassle until a friend showed me battlescribe and how easy it is to use. There is just to much information and too spread out to do it by hand in an easy way without BS
2019/10/21 16:59:46
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Fair enough. I use the enhanced edition codexes so I have the full rules there with me on my phone.
Looking up points in the back would be a real pain. Luckily you can prod at the phone and they all pop up. Gets updated (eventually) with stuff like CA and FAQs too.
2019/10/21 17:04:03
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mandragola wrote: Fair enough. I use the enhanced edition codexes so I have the full rules there with me on my phone.
Looking up points in the back would be a real pain. Luckily you can prod at the phone and they all pop up. Gets updated (eventually) with stuff like CA and FAQs too.
Is that right? Seems like a pretty handy tool for gaming at least rather than having the full codex. Can you bookmark important pages?
Mandragola wrote: Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Better show that off when you're done.
Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.
I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.
And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.
To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
And the fist of Vengeance really helps a lot. You're probably playing a kind of gunline. Having your captain not just give rerolls but also pop out and smash a knight is seriously good. An IF gunline is a bit less able to punch back if the enemy gets to them.
I think Tor Garadon fits into the "punching back" role quite literally. Yes, he only gives Captain rerolls (but Signum array!) but few characters are able to buff and deal the smackity to a Knight as well as him without Stratagem expense.
Plus, the Special issue Power Fist (that IF has access to, too) is almost as good as the Fist of Vengeance, isn't it?
Tor also wounds the Knight on a 3+ which is kinda nice.
That said a Knight charging at you likely doesn't care about your character punching back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/21 17:08:14
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/10/21 17:50:58
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Crimson Fists do not have access to the siegebreaker cohort which really hurts them as it's a massively powerful tool for the Imperial Fists.
It wont last long. It was not written with the current Imperial fists rules in mind. Cents got buffed both offensive and defensively and it was already stupid powerful.
Why they didn't kill it when they FAQ'd vigilous stuff for the new codex marines beats me.
It sounds like GW got a little too complacent about the play testing and/or editing of the latest supliments.
Just way too many seriously who actually thought that wasn't going to be an issue moments from the wording of certain rules.
2019/10/21 17:53:31
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mandragola wrote: Fair enough. I use the enhanced edition codexes so I have the full rules there with me on my phone.
Looking up points in the back would be a real pain. Luckily you can prod at the phone and they all pop up. Gets updated (eventually) with stuff like CA and FAQs too.
Is that right? Seems like a pretty handy tool for gaming at least rather than having the full codex. Can you bookmark important pages?
Yes, but you hardly need to. It's broken down into chapters and they've got contents lists. So you can click through to the right unit easily. It's at least as easy as finding them in the paper book.
To be clear, it is the full codex. You have all the background, colour pics and stuff that a paper one would have. You can also spin some images round and things like that.
They take up quite a bit of space on my phone though, annoyingly, and cost as much as paper ones. I've got an ipad, which is an ideal way to look at the books, but it can't store all that many of them, unfortunately.
2019/10/21 18:00:23
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Crimson Fists do not have access to the siegebreaker cohort which really hurts them as it's a massively powerful tool for the Imperial Fists.
It wont last long. It was not written with the current Imperial fists rules in mind. Cents got buffed both offensive and defensively and it was already stupid powerful.
Why they didn't kill it when they FAQ'd vigilous stuff for the new codex marines beats me.
It sounds like GW got a little too complacent about the play testing and/or editing of the latest supplements.
Just way too many seriously who actually thought that wasn't going to be an issue moments from the wording of certain rules.
It's clear GWs approach is "wait until proven busted" Give it a month. It can't last.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/10/21 19:14:50
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Devastator Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
I think I use several UM bonus pretty well, such as the classic grav-deva in Tactical Doctrine or the seal of Oath with the 9 men squad (able to kill a hive tyran or a tank as easily as a gaunt squad).
